[TV/Books] Game of Thrones ***SPOILER Discussion***

[mauserr]

Can't say I expect a "happily ever after" ending. I just expect some vague level of quality and consistency.

I agree I didn't expect a happy ending but at least consistency. Dany acted completely or some can say she acted as she always has been without her advisers. With that being said Dany consistently refused to punish the innocent. She was a champion for the less fortunate.
Jaime went right back to what he started as after years of drifting from Cersei culminating with Cersei betraying the living and Jaime seeing how far lost she was.
Cersei begging for her life. She made her bed and was terrified to sleep in what she made when she wanted this.
Greyworm turning into this raging monster.
Arya giving up her lifelong dream of killing Cersei because the Hound told her she would die? She attacked the damn Night King surrounded by White Walkers and thousands of wights.
Jon acted in character he was horrified by what was happening.
The Northern people doing something they know Ned would never allow.

The Night King was a threat bigger and far more important than anything Cersei could ever hope to do. That battle at that time to them was the most important thing, Night King had to die no matter what, no matter who died. Cersei was "already dead" when Daenerys decided to rule by fear. Sandor and Arya had a relationship of sorts going on, what he told them just made her realise that revenge just ends up you being dead, and she didn't need to die, Cersei wasn't the Night King.

Greyworm wasn't Unsullied (as a person) anymore, especially after having loved Missandei and her being killed by Cersei in front of him as a "fuck you, Daenerys". When he saw Dany snap, he acted on his anger as well. Nothing out of the ordinary here. Consistent with his story so far, he stopped being a mindless order obeying drone and started evolving into a human filled with emotion.

Cersei beggine, eh, I don't know, got nothing to say here for that.

Jaime always loved Cersei, he always did bad shit for her and to be with her. He realised she could and most likely would actually die this time and didn't want to abandon her.

Northerners weren't saints, and Ned was long gone. They fought the people who were responsible for his death. There's bound to be hate there.

[ohiostate124]

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When they were at Dragonstone this was discussed between Dany, Tyrion and Greyworm what the ringing bells would mean and they both agreed.

Bro, you are completely missing the point. The KL bells have never meant surrender though. This has been stated multiple times throughout the series. It doesn’t matter what they talked about at Dragonstone.

[eschatological]

Bro, you are completely missing the point. The KL bells have never meant surrender though. This has been stated multiple times throughout the series. It doesn’t matter what they talked about at Dragonstone.

A) Dany doesn't know that history, so it shouldn't affect how she views the ringing of KL's bells, and B) they set up a specific scenario of surrender where the bells would ring to signify that surrender.


I mean, how long can you defend this shit. Dany didn't mistake the bells for aggression. She just flipped out, and MURDERED the city after it had already surrendered. No ifs, ands, or buts about it.

[Byuiso]

Bro, you are completely missing the point. The KL bells have never meant surrender though. This has been stated multiple times throughout the series. It doesn’t matter what they talked about at Dragonstone.

How doesn't it matter when it was explicitly stated by Tyrion to Dany and Greyworm what the ringing of the bells would mean and they both acknowledged it.

Never mind what it meant before this moment. In this moment they knew exactly what the ringing meant and they agreed to that and as soon as the bells rang they did exactly the opposite of what they agreed to.

[Millyraynge]

sorry for my strong language , but fcuk you D&D!

[Katchii]

Bro, you are completely missing the point. The KL bells have never meant surrender though. This has been stated multiple times throughout the series. It doesn’t matter what they talked about at Dragonstone.

It doesn't matter what the rest of the series says though, the people who needed to know that "ringing bells = surrender" knew that, as it was discussed both at Dragonstone AND immediately prior to the siege at the front gates. Dany was there, Greyworm was there, Jon was there...the folks who had control of the army and could make the call were all there.

It didn't need to mean surrender to anyone else besides Dany's forces.

[ohiostate124]

A) Dany doesn't know that history, so it shouldn't affect how she views the ringing of KL's bells, and B) they set up a specific scenario of surrender where the bells would ring to signify that surrender.


I mean, how long can you defend this shit. Dany didn't mistake the bells for aggression. She just flipped out, and MURDERED the city after it had already surrendered. No ifs, ands, or buts about it.

Lolwut I’m not defending this. I’m talking about how stupid D&D are for forgetting their own show.

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How doesn't it matter when it was explicitly stated by Tyrion to Dany and Greyworm what the ringing of the bells would mean and they both acknowledged it.

Never mind what it meant before this moment. In this moment they knew exactly what the ringing meant and they agreed to that and as soon as the bells rang they did exactly the opposite of what they agreed to.

Because how the fuck would the Lannister’s forces know to ring the bells if they don’t mean surrender to them?

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It doesn't matter what the rest of the series says though, the people who needed to know that "ringing bells = surrender" knew that, as it was discussed both at Dragonstone AND immediately prior to the siege at the front gates. Dany was there, Greyworm was there, Jon was there...the folks who had control of the army and could make the call were all there.

It didn't need to mean surrender to anyone else besides Dany's forces.

Lolwut. The whole point was that the Lannister forces would ring them if they wanted to surrender. How could they do that if they don’t know they mean surrender?

The fucking bells have literally never meant surrender in the history of the series until this moment. It doesn’t make sense. The people of King’s landing would have no way of knowing.

[Sanguinerd]

God I'm tired of them making it seem like Arya is going to die but SIKE she lives.. NO WAIT SHE MIGHT DIE NOW.. SIKE AGAIN!

The entire scene of her walking through King's Landing was ruined because I knew she wouldn't die anyway so why even bother getting invested.

[MikeBogina]

What if Dany didn't go mad... what if Bran promised to reset this moment for her? xD

[Byuiso]

Lolwut I’m not defending this. I’m talking about how stupid D&D are for forgetting their own show.

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Because how the fuck would the Lannister’s forces know to ring the bells if they don’t mean surrender to them?

They didn't but Jaime did and Dany heard them cry out to ring the bells due to them surrendering. She knew they were surrendering. Greyworm watched them surrender as did Jon which is why he was horrified by what was going on.

It was well known they surrendered and she massacred them anyways.

[Jastall]

I'm not confused about anything. Dany is going mad - that's well-established enough. But narratively speaking, her going mad needed to be something more subtle, and more drawn out, and even at her worst, it needed to be less black and white. Dany is now a cartoonish evil villain. There is no justification for what she did. Jon will kill her next episode, and no one will even QUESTION it. And for all y'all who think "the game of thrones is the most important part of this show," that should disappoint you. It should disappoint you that Varys didn't scheme in the background to get Jon on the Throne, instead of openly and brazenly suggesting it to people loyal TO Dany. It should disappoint you that when Jon kills Dany, there'll be no question that it's the right thing to do. There will be no game. Dany has lost. If you loved the political scheming of the show and thought it was the main point (instead of the real main point, which was the NK), you should be furious that they've killed all of that. Who sits on the throne next episode is totally irrelevant, because we all know one thing: it can't be Dany.

As for the vision Bran had, the script for that episode can be found online. It says it's snow. The way it falls in her hair makes it snow. The sheer amount of it would require millions of people to be incinerated in the Red Keep, because unlike snow, ash is heavy and falls and stays where it falls. When we cremated my dad, his ashes were a) grey, and b) fit inside a 1 foot square box.

The idiocy of this show's defenders are breath-taking and staggering.

That's what I don't like about it too. The act wasn't that sudden; Dany going mad was indeed foreshadowed. But it was executed in an extremely clumsy way, and more importantly is so over-the-top that there's no going back for her. There's no room for politics when one of the players burns down a city that just surrendered, starting with the civilians instead of the people who actually wronged her.

She's a bigger villain than Joffrey, Ramsay and Cercei put together. There is now 0 moral ambiguity in killing her, just like the Night King. And that's just not satisfying to me.

[ohiostate124]

They didn't but Jaime did and Dany heard them cry out to ring the bells due to them surrendering. She knew they were surrendering. Greyworm watched them surrender as did Jon which is why he was horrified by what was going on.

It was well known they surrendered and she massacred them anyways.

Dude, I’m not even talking about that part of it lmao.

[Prokne]

How doesn't it matter when it was explicitly stated by Tyrion to Dany and Greyworm what the ringing of the bells would mean and they both acknowledged it.

Never mind what it meant before this moment. In this moment they knew exactly what the ringing meant and they agreed to that and as soon as the bells rang they did exactly the opposite of what they agreed to.

If that was the case, then only Dany, Tyrion, Grey Wurm, Jon and Jaime knew that bells meant surrender because no one in King's Landing has ever used bells to signal surrender before. Jaime was supposed to go tell Cersei to ring the bells to surrender, but he wasn't with her yet and wasn't shown telling the soldiers to do it either.

The bells rang because the soldiers wanted to surrender, but they had no way of knowing that was a signal based on their own history. You can't change the meaning of a signal in a castle far away and expect enemy soldiers with no knowledge of the change to give that signal.

[Val the Moofia Boss]

Friendly reminder that my man Joffrey Baratheon was the best king to sit on the Iron Throne during the story. Appointed the most competent man he knew as his hand, even though he knew his hand might make decisions he would personally not like. Was to be married to who would have been a just Queen and would've eventually curbed his tendencies. Took the security of the nation seriously, expressing alarm when hearing about the rumors of a Targaryean in Essos. Would've almost certainly have been the first to answer a call for help from Castle Black when the Others came. He was personally a prick but didn't go out of his way to ruin his country or torture his people (aside from that one girl he shot with his crossbow for fun).

Seer-king Bran sounds cool. Too bad we won't get to see what his reign looks like. Hopefully the Night's Watch expands their activities to become Northern policemen in general, rather than just being holed in up Castle Black waiting for an army of death that will never come.

Why on earth are people upset with Dany going ape shit?

They were caught up in the fantasy of Dany being a hero princess who would right all the wrongs in the world and get with the hard working handsome hero, whilst forgetting how self-centered and barbaric she was in Essos and how morally steadfast Jon is.

[Byuiso]

The Night King was a threat bigger and far more important than anything Cersei could ever hope to do. That battle at that time to them was the most important thing, Night King had to die no matter what, no matter who died. Cersei was "already dead" when Daenerys decided to rule by fear. Sandor and Arya had a relationship of sorts going on, what he told them just made her realise that revenge just ends up you being dead, and she didn't need to die, Cersei wasn't the Night King.

I have said before killing the Night King the way they did was horrible and did the entire show a disservice. Cersei was never going to be the same level threat as the Night King. The Night King was the ultimate villain of this show regardless of Cersei and now Dany's heel turn. My point was attacking the Night King was far more risky and dangerous than going with the Hound to fight the Mountain and kill Cersei...personally I can't even stress how much more dangerous the Night King was than Cersei and Arya still did it.

[Prokne]

It doesn't matter what the rest of the series says though, the people who needed to know that "ringing bells = surrender" knew that, as it was discussed both at Dragonstone AND immediately prior to the siege at the front gates. Dany was there, Greyworm was there, Jon was there...the folks who had control of the army and could make the call were all there.

They must have had really awesome hearing to be able to hear Tyrion talking in a low voice a few hundred yards away. Most of those people on the walls would have been too dead to relay that information since Dany blew up the walls right at the beginning of the battle.

[Byuiso]

If that was the case, then only Dany, Tyrion, Grey Wurm, Jon and Jaime knew that bells meant surrender because no one in King's Landing has ever used bells to signal surrender before. Jaime was supposed to go tell Cersei to ring the bells to surrender, but he wasn't with her yet and wasn't shown telling the soldiers to do it either.

The bells rang because the soldiers wanted to surrender, but they had no way of knowing that was a signal based on their own history. You can't change the meaning of a signal in a castle far away and expect enemy soldiers with no knowledge of the change to give that signal.

Cersei showed visible relief when the bells rang. She didn't order it but she certainly did surrender.

Also all the Lannisters surrendered in front of Greyworm and Jon who were essentially the highest ranking people on the ground who knew what the bells meant. Greyworm ignored it and attacked anyways. The other soldiers didn't know but Greyworm did and he incited the massacre along with Dany.

[jakeic]

It doesn't matter what the rest of the series says though, the people who needed to know that "ringing bells = surrender" knew that, as it was discussed both at Dragonstone AND immediately prior to the siege at the front gates. Dany was there, Greyworm was there, Jon was there...the folks who had control of the army and could make the call were all there.

It didn't need to mean surrender to anyone else besides Dany's forces.

Wouldn't the people who were supposed to surrender need to know that the bells meant that they surrendered, in this case they would not know that's what the bells mean, it doesn't flow logically that everyone would just know that the bells meant surrender either, bells are used to alert and it is incredibly unlikely that Cersei would prepare her forces for full surrender, considering she hasn't prepared at all to surrender.

[Adamas102]

Why on earth are people upset with Dany going ape shit?

Kings Landing represented everything and everyone who has betrayed her and her family. Of course it would get level'd.

You must have missed the first 7 seasons. KL represented her birthright. The Red Keep and specifically the Iron Throne are a symbol to the power of her ancestors, a power that she spent THE ENTIRE SHOW attempting to reclaim. D&D even reference that in the post episode discussion, which makes it even more inane that her reaction in the face of victory was to destroy it all. The episode might be seen as entertaining in terms of production value and spectacle, but in terms of the characters and the 8 year story it was a horrible miss.

[jakeic]

You must have missed the first 7 seasons. KL represented her birthright. The Red Keep and specifically the Iron Throne are a symbol to the power of her ancestors, a power that she spent THE ENTIRE SHOW attempting to reclaim. D&D even reference that in the post episode discussion, which makes it even more inane that her reaction in the face of victory was to destroy it all. The episode might be seen as entertaining in terms of production value and spectacle, but in terms of the characters and the 8 year story it was a horrible miss.

It would make sense if it were done with the context of breaking the wheel. Straight up burning down her own holding makes no sense.