[TV/Books] Game of Thrones ***SPOILER Discussion***

[GreenJesus]

Last episode of season 1 she has a woman burned to death. Her burn happy insanity started before her dragons could breathe fire.

Well yeah I'm sure a lot of widows would be happy to see the one who killed their husband burn.

[Nymfomania]

There's been no POV of the White Walkers in the books. No one knows if they have a leader or a king or even that there's one magical guy that created all of them that they can conveniently shank to kill all the others. The Night's King in the books is a legend about the Long Night, which took place thousands of years ago. GRRM suggests that that NK was human, not related to the White Walkers, and is most certainly dead by now.

Why would they have him in the movies but not the books?

[eschatological]

Why would they have him in the movies but not the books?

I mean, there's just not been a lot of scenes North of the Wall in the books yet. Conjecture is that the next book, "The Winds of Winter" will largely take place in the North.

In the books, Jon has just been killed after letting the Wildlings through the Wall, Stannis is marooned in the snow marching to Winterfell, Bran has barely passed under the wall to the North heading to the 3ER, etc. We've not met the 3ER except in visions, we've not seen a White Walker since the Night's Watch retreated from the Fist of the First Men, Hardhome hasn't happened (though Jon has heard about it from Eastwatch). The books just haven't gone that far.

[Wyrt]

Well yeah I'm sure a lot of widows would be happy to see the one who killed their husband burn.

That whole situation just showed Dany was a sociopath who couldn't understand the feelings of other people.

That woman had just saw her entire life destroyed. Her city was sacked. The temple of her god was destroyed. Her friends and family slaughtered. And she was raped 4 times. And Dany was surprised that the woman would kill the person responsible.

[Nymfomania]

I mean, there's just not been a lot of scenes North of the Wall in the books yet. Conjecture is that the next book, "The Winds of Winter" will largely take place in the North.

In the books, Jon has just been killed after letting the Wildlings through the Wall, Stannis is marooned in the snow marching to Winterfell, Bran has barely passed under the wall to the North heading to the 3ER, etc. We've not met the 3ER except in visions, we've not seen a White Walker since the Night's Watch retreated from the Fist of the First Men, Hardhome hasn't happened (though Jon has heard about it from Eastwatch). The books just haven't gone that far.

Ah i see. I follow you. Im sorry for being ignorant. I really need to sit down and read the books. I enjoyed the series a great deal even the final season. I hope he finishes the books before he dies.

[Jastall]

The Night King still "mattered", in that he distracted Jon and Daenerys and lengthened the show a bit.

But the focus on swirly patterns that they kept coming back to with the White Walkers and the Night King, that's completely abandoned.
https://www.polygon.com/tv/2019/4/14...on-8-episode-1

Way to hint at a deep, complex lore and then just say "nah, he got stabbed and that fixed everything forever."

I still say Arya killing the Night King that easily, and it ending the entire threat that completely, was the stupidest decision made in Season 8.

And a lot of what was subsequently bad stemmed from it as they scrambled to find a credible villain afterwards. Cercei wasn't, they just gave her a boyfriend who can 360 noscope dragons out of the sky from his cloaking ship when the plot calls for it. Then Cercei got rekt and in the same breath they had Dany go full Hitler so she could be a threat for half an episode, then die so Tyrion could play musical chairs and everyone has a happily ever after ending.

This entire thing was so rushed and half-assed it hurts. Especially in light of the sky-high production values and good acting wasted on the horrible writing.

- - - Updated - - -

I mean, there's just not been a lot of scenes North of the Wall in the books yet. Conjecture is that the next book, "The Winds of Winter" will largely take place in the North.

In the books, Jon has just been killed after letting the Wildlings through the Wall, Stannis is marooned in the snow marching to Winterfell, Bran has barely passed under the wall to the North heading to the 3ER, etc. We've not met the 3ER except in visions, we've not seen a White Walker since the Night's Watch retreated from the Fist of the First Men, Hardhome hasn't happened (though Jon has heard about it from Eastwatch). The books just haven't gone that far.

Correction: Bran has met the Three-Eyed Raven in the books, as well as the Children of the Forest. The difference is that he's still there and Bloodraven is still the 3ER. Also Jon sent ships at Hardhome and did not go himself (and likely won't), last we hear the mission went awry but no mention of any Night King or Walkers, just "dead things in the water".

Still, it's true that the show started to surpass the books in places in S5, and fully by S6. Which makes it hard for me to believe Martin can resolve everything in just two books, considering the series has far more characters and plot threads than the show.

[Netherling]

That whole situation just showed Dany was a sociopath who couldn't understand the feelings of other people.

That woman had just saw her entire life destroyed. Her city was sacked. The temple of her god was destroyed. Her friends and family slaughtered. And she was raped 4 times. And Dany was surprised that the woman would kill the person responsible.

I really don't think the point of that part was that she's a sociopath; I think you're trying to find links that aren't truly there. Dany was incredibly naive (and very young) at this point of the story because she'd had a very sheltered upbringing. She simply thought that she'd saved the woman from rape + death.

[GreenJesus]

That whole situation just showed Dany was a sociopath who couldn't understand the feelings of other people.

That woman had just saw her entire life destroyed. Her city was sacked. The temple of her god was destroyed. Her friends and family slaughtered. And she was raped 4 times. And Dany was surprised that the woman would kill the person responsible.

Danny also did everything in her power to save her and other women from death and further rape. The witch killed her husband after she trusted her with his life. She felt betrayed. John snow killed people for less. He killed that fat worthless guy for just not bending the knee and taking an order.

[Wyrt]

Danny also did everything in her power to save her and other women from death and further rape. The witch killed her husband after she trusted her with his life. She felt betrayed. John snow killed people for less. He killed that fat worthless guy for just not bending the knee and taking an order.

She felt betrayed, but she couldn't understand how that woman felt.

[Gorsameth]

Why would they have him in the movies but not the books?

Because the show wanted a singular villain for the audience to react to and to drive the story while GRRM doesn't like that sort of thing.

[Byuiso]

Danny also did everything in her power to save her and other women from death and further rape. The witch killed her husband after she trusted her with his life. She felt betrayed. John snow killed people for less. He killed that fat worthless guy for just not bending the knee and taking an order.

If you're talking about Janos well Janos broke the rules. He was a coward and was actively plotting for Jon's downfall.

Lord Commanders orders are absolute in the Night's Watch and Janos disobeyed anyways all because Jon was a traitors bastard according to Janos.


Ned instilled honor in Jon and he was going by what Ned preached and Ned at the end of the day is probably the most respected character in all of Westeros. When you also look at it the way Ned raised Jon is what saved Westeros and the rest of the world.

[Celista]

Some got too much time on their hands..



Lol the end killed me

True lol but sometimes it's worth it for the rest of us. 10/10

[Endus]

And a lot of what was subsequently bad stemmed from it as they scrambled to find a credible villain afterwards. Cercei wasn't, they just gave her a boyfriend who can 360 noscope dragons out of the sky from his cloaking ship when the plot calls for it. Then Cercei got rekt and in the same breath they had Dany go full Hitler so she could be a threat for half an episode, then die so Tyrion could play musical chairs and everyone has a happily ever after ending.

This entire thing was so rushed and half-assed it hurts. Especially in light of the sky-high production values and good acting wasted on the horrible writing.

Simple writing fix;

Everything up to Battle of Winterfell occurs as written. Battle of Winterfell continues as well. Arya tries to get to the Night King, stabs like 6 White Walkers, Night King takes off, leaving Bran. Battle ends, wights pull back, the survivors recover. The Night King's troops just . . . stand there. Waiting. Eventually, knowing that the castle's superfucked, the Northern forces retreat to regroup. Realize they need the Southern armies, and Cersei stands in the way of humanity's survival. The confrontation occurs much the same way, same refusal. Dany now has "we need to win, and win NOW" to help justify her going all angry-face on King's Landing. Jon stabs Daenerys because she crazy. The Southern troops cautiously march North, the Northern troops combine forces to meet the Night King in the field, as Winter comes. Jon is in prison, so isn't leading the forces on the field. Another big battle sequence, they fight the Night King's wights to a standstill, Bran's been Warging and Greensighting the whole time. The Night King starts his bullshit "your dead are mine", and Bran rolls forth and says "no". He's tapped into the remaining strength of the Children of the Forest, enough to counter the Night King, to hold his powers at by for the final charge. Bingo bango bongo, everyone gets a stab in, Night King is done. Nobody has an effective army left. Queue in the same stuff from the aftermath.

I'm not saying that's perfect and awesome, I'm saying I think it's better, and I literally just worked that out sitting here in 3 minutes working from the major plot points they already had in play. Might need 1-2 extra episodes, it's still stupidly rushed, but it makes a bit more sense. And Bran being king makes a ton of sense, since everyone saw him turn the tide.

[Ihavewaffles]

Didn't think they did TV shows, but here goes

[Koriani]

If he's some "all knowing god", then there is no explanation for him knowing certain things were going to happen, and then allowing them anyways.

I'm reminded of Breaking Bad, when Walt stands there and watches as Jesse's girlfriend chokes to death, but does nothing.

Sometimes being an "uncaring neutral observer", is simply the purest kind of evil there is...

Even disregarding the good/evil aspect, having Bran as a "ruler" is the worst choice possible. He sat and let a whole city burn not out of any sense of moral righteousness, or personal greed, but because he simply didn't care about whether those little ants lived or died.

I mean, he brings that very same apathy to his first acts as ruler... simply walking out of the meeting and letting everyone else do everything because he simply doesn't care about his subjects' (or any human's) wellbeing.

I do agree - there's little to no explanation about Bran (his powers, what he can and can't do exactly, future seeing etc), at all, in the tv show with all of this, and yes - it suffers for it.

However - to know something horrible happens in the future (or in front of you) and to do nothing about it does NOT automatically mean he's evil, or even neutral.

If the 'omniscient' (for lack of a better term) individual knows that Bad XYZ has to happen in order for Good ABC to happen - then that being isn't being evil because he doesn't stop the bad. He's being "good" because he's allowing the thing he knows has to happen in order for the better to come after it.

Its like kids getting shots. The shots hurt the child and if it was up to the child they'd never have a shot. But the adults know better. They know the child has to have the shot - no matter how much it hurts - for the good of the child.

Bran has become that parent.

IF you go with his omniscience and it means he knew exactly what Danny was going to do in KL (and there are several arguments here that this is NOT actually the case), then its also the idea that he knew it was possibly /was the only way to produce the change needed in the kingdom/ for the kingdoms to move forward into an actually better future.

He knew the "purge" (so to speak) had to happen in order for everyone to see that Danny couldn't lead them. He couldn't just tell everyone. He couldn't keep it from happening and thereby leave everyone unaware of the "Mad Queen" until a later point when she might do worse damage or it was beyond saving. He knew that was how it HAD to go down in order to have a better future for the 7 Kingdoms after all of this. In order to actually bring about the change Dany/everyone else always claimed they wanted.

If you KNOW that - then no, you don't say a word. You let events unfurl because you realize the good of the many outweighs the good of the few. Because to save the world, you have to choose to sacrifice the short-term gains of individuals.

Just like Dr. Strange in Avengers projecting down a million futures to find a future that leads to the "best" ending. If that one future meant a lot of horrible things in the short term to get to the "real ending" that was needed - then Dr. Strange would have allowed/caused/move forward with horrible things happening in order to get to the "happier" ending. IF that is what was necessary.

Due to bad writing - we don't know what was and wasn't necessary.

But cutting out the bad writing and looking at HOW it happened - without changing an entire character's personality arc (bran was never evil) - it explains itself.

So just like he gave Ayra the dagger she needed to kill the NK - knowing what would be necessary to provide the opening/chance for them to win. If he had never given Ayra that dagger, she would have died right there at the NK hands and that would have ended all of it. He knew it wasn't his position to stab the NK himself. He didn't try to take over the outcome or perform a role that was never intended for Bran. He didn't tell Ayra about what would happen and what she would do. To do ANY of that (or anything else) would put in jeopardy the very win they were going after. Would sabotage the very thing they were trying to accomplish.

So all he COULD do and all he HAD to do - was make sure she had the right weapon and allow "fate", as he had seen it (we have to assume), to follow the path it would take once all the right pieces were in place.

We may not like that a better history had to, literally, rise from the ashes of what came before. But if he /knew/ that was how it /had/ to happen to get there - then its a goodly act. Because to do otherwise would only be selfish and shortsighted - to save the immediate friends/outcome and condemn future generations is the actual evil decision there.

You can see Bran as apathetic and neutral. Evidence all over for that. But, outside of silly memes, trolls, and rewriting his entire character - he's not evil.
And a neutral Diety-like being would also still want for humanity to survive, as a whole. If he's the recorder of all of mankind's history - he still doesn't want to see mankind self-destruct. That would mean he has no purpose. So he'd still stand by and watch catastrophic destruction if he /knew/ that the destruction was necessary for the future to be better.

[zEmini]

I didn't think the ending was as bad as the Internet believes but still not very satisfying. I never though Danny would go full mad Queen.

Simple writing fix;

Everything up to Battle of Winterfell occurs as written. Battle of Winterfell continues as well. Arya tries to get to the Night King, stabs like 6 White Walkers, Night King takes off, leaving Bran. Battle ends, wights pull back, the survivors recover. The Night King's troops just . . . stand there. Waiting. Eventually, knowing that the castle's superfucked, the Northern forces retreat to regroup. Realize they need the Southern armies, and Cersei stands in the way of humanity's survival. The confrontation occurs much the same way, same refusal. Dany now has "we need to win, and win NOW" to help justify her going all angry-face on King's Landing. Jon stabs Daenerys because she crazy. The Southern troops cautiously march North, the Northern troops combine forces to meet the Night King in the field, as Winter comes. Jon is in prison, so isn't leading the forces on the field. Another big battle sequence, they fight the Night King's wights to a standstill, Bran's been Warging and Greensighting the whole time. The Night King starts his bullshit "your dead are mine", and Bran rolls forth and says "no". He's tapped into the remaining strength of the Children of the Forest, enough to counter the Night King, to hold his powers at by for the final charge. Bingo bango bongo, everyone gets a stab in, Night King is done. Nobody has an effective army left. Queue in the same stuff from the aftermath.

I'm not saying that's perfect and awesome, I'm saying I think it's better, and I literally just worked that out sitting here in 3 minutes working from the major plot points they already had in play. Might need 1-2 extra episodes, it's still stupidly rushed, but it makes a bit more sense. And Bran being king makes a ton of sense, since everyone saw him turn the tide.

Better yet, the Night King arrives at Kings landing shortly after the slaughter all cloaked up and in disguise. He raises the dead from the ashes right there and wins the throne! The scourge then moves onto Bravos, Meerreen, Qarth and the other major cities on Essos. Everyone dies except for a few chosen survivors who must rebuild civilization come spring.

I was routing for the Night King since the beginning.

[IIamaKing]

Seriously. It was like they were rationing her characters screen time

Did she even do anything really? Other than scoul?

[GreenJesus]

If you're talking about Janos well Janos broke the rules. He was a coward and was actively plotting for Jon's downfall.

Lord Commanders orders are absolute in the Night's Watch and Janos disobeyed anyways all because Jon was a traitors bastard according to Janos.


Ned instilled honor in Jon and he was going by what Ned preached and Ned at the end of the day is probably the most respected character in all of Westeros. When you also look at it the way Ned raised Jon is what saved Westeros and the rest of the world.

"Muh Honor". Why is John's moral of killing people for "honor" better than Danny's for disloyalty and betrayal? The witch deserved everything she got. She was an actual witch that used witchcraft to kill her husband. Witches burned at the stake in Medieval times. That's just how it goes.

Why is chopping people's heads off for not following an order honorable when they could have been held in prison instead? You are rationalizing one and demonizing other with different standards.

[Mhalix]

Wilding leader: where's Mance?
Jon: he's dead.
Wilding leader: how?
Jon: i shot an arrow thru his heart.

I think people are forgetting how Jon works.

Yea but in that case Jon shot Mance in the heart to put him out of his misery as he was being burned alive in front of a ton of people including Wildings
In the case on him killing dany there was nobody else there so not a true apples to apples comparison I would guess

[Lollis]

Why is chopping people's heads off for not following an order honorable when they could have been held in prison instead? You are rationalizing one and demonizing other with different standards.

The penalty for breaking the lord commander's orders is death. Ned believed that the one who passes the sentence should also be the one to swing the sword.

The Night's Watch is basically life in prison. Remember that the people there are (mostly) there because they committed a crime and the choice was basically death or the wall.

Alternatively look at it another way. It can be seen to be just like the old military outfits such as the Royal Navy or Armies: if you refuse to follow orders, or perhaps go so far as to stage a mutiny, you would have been shot.