Everyone in the beta reporting that dungeons are REALLY easy :(

[Lollis]

Oh, right, stages.

Yeah, well, guess we'll see how long it takes for stage 1 content to get absolutely demolished.

But anyways, I wonder if there's any Vanilla advocates out there who actually think there were any bosses that were equally as hard as Yogg 0 25 man... besides numbers just being tuned poorly, when it comes to sheer abilities and strategy... I f*cking doubt it.

If there is, then they are beyond stupid.

The likes of Zero Lights, LK Heroic, hell even Firefighter are beyond anything in Vanilla, nevermind the stuff we have these days. There are less than a handful of bosses in Vanilla that have any meaningful tactical requirement outside of 'move from this' or 'this hits a bit hard'

[anon5123]

Actually some of the fights were nearly impossible without certain gear. 4 horseman required 8 tanks and no taunt resists so needed tier set bonus on all 8 tanks

Stop spreading this YouTuber lie.

You don't need 8 tanks with T3 4-piece to do the fight. It is 100% doable without any T3 pieces at all, you just risk a taunt getting resisted which can domino into a wipe. Luckily Warriors have more than 1 taunt (taunt, mocking blow, challenging shout) so they can somewhat mitigate a resisted taunt. Plus you can use the spell hit trinket from ZG to further reduce the chance of a taunt resist.

I've cleared it on pservers just fine with only 2 tanks in T3 gear.

[Deficineiron]

Something does seem off with mob damage in dungeons.

Watching the Horde/Alliance beta race to kill Whitemane, the bosses were 10 levels above the players but only dealing 40 damage a hit. They just doesn't seem right.

I posted a thread about this. apparently some mob damage matches vintage videos, backing out probable armor etc in the videos, yet there just isn't enough damage being done to parties to justify anything people remember pre-2.3.

I speculated mob swing timers have been lengthened. it would not show up combat logs in a way that would lend itself to detection.

- - - Updated - - -

Okay, that seems off.

I played on Blizz-like 1.12 realms (truly Blizz-like, they didn't change anything) and 10 levels above players would just decimate you.

Blizzard needs to admit that maybe they've got something wrong.

the most interesting part is people report weak instance mobs, but correct outdoor questing tuning. it is an improbable 'false memory' construction to see so commonly. I know there are people on standby to explain this with the 4 reasons (blizz has an alleged 1.12 test server which helped the demo be 100% right, false memories/12 years, and private server contamination, either by direct experience or osmosis, or better players)

[re1gn1te]

Naxx was actually genuinely "hard" raid. It punished even slight mistake quite harshly. AQ, at some point, was actually unbeatable..

No it wasen't that hard LOL. Pretty much if you do any sort of mythic raiding atm you'll roll through vanilla easily. All vanilla is, it's a series of long grinds that's it.

[KaPe]

Something does seem off with mob damage in dungeons.

Watching the Horde/Alliance beta race to kill Whitemane, the bosses were 10 levels above the players but only dealing 40 damage a hit. They just doesn't seem right.

It's not like their damage is going to increase just because of the level difference. Even if they keep critting on every hit, it's still only 100% higher than usual. (and any spell damage is unchanged) Plus, weren't they using gear/consumables that normally no one would have at that level? The biggest factor in level difference was always the inability to hit the enemies, which is conveniently negated by using Hunters, who have no glancing blows, parries or dodges - plus Feign Death to deal with tanks unable to properly get agro.

[-aiko-]

Watching the Horde/Alliance beta race to kill Whitemane, the bosses were 10 levels above the players but only dealing 40 damage a hit. They just doesn't seem right.

All of the players in Soda and Asmongold's groups are just about as geared as you can be at level 30. They have insane levels of stamina and have specific buffs/items which your average group just isn't going to have. They were also all very skilled players, who knew what they were doing, yet still struggled to kill things quickly enough to avoid trash respawns. Soda's group even had a handful of wipes.

Dungeons are fine.

[Tojara]

Elite mobs really don't do that much more damage than a standard non-elite, they just have a much higher base health than their counterparts. The reason Vanilla is more challenging to level in, is simply because mob health/damage values are at values that are fairly close to what the player has. Soloing elites isn't more difficult because of the damage they do, but because of the health they have compared to you and compared to a non-elite version of themselves. It's the same in a game like D2. As you increase from normal, nightmare and hell difficulties, mobs just become way harder to hit and have far more health. Player health in this example actually doesn't scale that fast (and it doesn't in Vanilla WoW), and thus, monster damage doesn't scale very fast either.

On a per level basis mob health between a level 20 and 21 mob really doesn't go up all that much. The same can be said about a 20 to 21 elite as well. The previous two statements are somewhat simplified, simply because certain monsters fall under different categories (some mobs have more armor/health, but do less damage, while others have very little armor/health, but might do bursts of damage like caster mobs).

Is it possible they messed up the tuning? Yeah, but I actually doubt it. There's a reason people clear red to skull level elites and it's really not that hard to understand if you understand the core mechanics this games always had. If you'll notice, none of these groups have casters because casters actually get hit the hardest by fighting higher level mobs. After that melee suffer the most, while hunters are pretty much not really hurt by fighting higher level mobs.

Why? The penalty for spells scales up incredibly fast the higher you go and all you start seeing is misses and resists of varying degrees. Melee are subject to higher avoidance checks (miss, dodge, parry), while glancing blows effectively neuter any attempt at doing any meaningful white damage. Considering that the average breakdown of white damage is anywhere from 50-75% of your overall damage in Vanilla (depends on class, etc), you can start to see why glancing blows are a big deal. For reference, fighting boss level mobs (+3) has a 30% glance rate on white attacks which also reduces the damage of white swing by 30% as well. No matter what you do, you can never erase the 30% glance rate, but weapon skill can reduce the penalty. This is the reason why +10 weapon skill was so desired by warriors/rogues in Vanilla WoW as each point of weapon skill effectively reduced the penalty by 3%.

Hunters ignore all of this shit because auto shots aren't subject to glances, nor can their attacks dodge/parry. Hunter damage is really only subject to misses, which puts them at a large advantage over every other class.

When you put this altogether you start to paint a picture on why this isn't that crazy and why it really isn't as hard as people might think. Monster damage doesn't scale very high because player health doesn't scale that high. The only advantage mobs gain against vastly lower level players is that their attacks crush and crit more often (it's still subject to their not super impressive base damage), white attacks against them are useless, and special attacks have a much lower chance of actually hitting. Essentially as the player you're focusing all of your damage on yellow (special attack damage) to get through these dungeons and/or you're bringing a hunter.

I hope people realize that the level cap is 30 right now, and people have had time to min/max their gear. People generally don't do this while leveling, nor do they stock up on massive amounts of consumables and treat it like a raid.

TLDR; This isn't representative of what live will be like, or what your standard group will be like. Hunters are good at killing things way higher level.

[GrumpySnowflake]

I literally made an account here after going through most of the gargantuan thread. I guess most of the posters on this forum are Mythic raiders and generally top notch in gaming. I remember vanilla dungeons (level 60 that is) getting " boringly easy" and on "blind farm" after my guild started to have some BWL tier items slotted. True, they were not particularily "hard" before. More of a chore, but still required focus. We were one of the top guilds on the server with non-meme specs by today's standard.

[ManiaCCC]

No it wasen't that hard LOL. Pretty much if you do any sort of mythic raiding atm you'll roll through vanilla easily. All vanilla is, it's a series of long grinds that's it.

It was hard compared to any WoW content. No content in WoW is "hard"..not Mythic, not heroic ....nothing.

[valax]

What do you guys think about this?

I played vanilla and definitely remember them being as hard if not harder than the levelling. The guys in the beta are reporting levelling being MUCH hard than private servers but dungeons being WAY easier. They are talking about the possibility there was a stealth nerf to dungeons in 1.12

I hope this wasn't the case as easy dungeons will really suck in classic imo, what do you guys reckon?

Well' it's not like vanilla dungeon trash is loaded with abilities like retail ones are right now , they autoattack and cast a couple of spells here and there . People playing beta right now have been playing and knowing the content for more than a decade now it's not really a surprise things are not as hard as they remember.

I really liked Asmon group taking on scarlet armory and cathedral at level 30 , that's peak challenge you can expect from vanilla . I don't expect any raid to pose any mechanic difficulty to the raider of 2019 if anything it will all be mathematical disadvantage on hps/dps caused by the slow gearing progress .

The only thing that can really screw your group is mobs fleeing into other packs of mobs but you can easily anticipate and counter that

[PenguinChan]

What do you guys think about this?

The game being from 2004 - 2006 and everyone and their grandmother who plays an MMORPG have played countless ones and know all the basic mechanics that Classic WoW introduced to the genre, or refined. It's basic stuff and it's no wonder that people are breezing through it, even if they aren't the best.

[Charge me Doctor]

Two things; either it's not as easy as it seems or Method has some really bad apples in their roster.

or he doesn't give a fuck about how many times he dies during leveling

[Deficineiron]

It was hard compared to any WoW content. No content in WoW is "hard"..not Mythic, not heroic ....nothing.

could you provide examples of hard in a video game?

- - - Updated - - -

Well' it's not like vanilla dungeon trash is loaded with abilities like retail ones are right now , they autoattack and cast a couple of spells here and there . People playing beta right now have been playing and knowing the content for more than a decade now it's not really a surprise things are not as hard as they remember.

I really liked Asmon group taking on scarlet armory and cathedral at level 30 , that's peak challenge you can expect from vanilla . I don't expect any raid to pose any mechanic difficulty to the raider of 2019 if anything it will all be mathematical disadvantage on hps/dps caused by the slow gearing progress .

The only thing that can really screw your group is mobs fleeing into other packs of mobs but you can easily anticipate and counter that

2 separate questions at work

1) are players in the beta 'better' than avg. player years ago. obv. yes.

2) is instance mob dps correct? Well, who (besides blizzard) knows? mob damage per hit has usually turned up right when vintage videos can be deciphered, but I have not seen any discussion at all of swing timers, at any time. damage per hit can be fine, but a slower swing timer (or longer internal cd on an ability/spell) in beta and you have a lower dps mob.

I think looking at both retail classic dungeon trash dungeon swing timers (and cast delay of casters between spells) vs beta, and both vs. what can be gleaned from pre-2.3 videos, could be interesting, either way.

the pattern of people reporting outdoor questing feels right, but dungeons feel undertuned, is not what one would expect in a false memory report.

[Stocksy]

Really easy? Be fine once it goes live they will normalize the mobs, like they always do after a beta, because beta isn't for a player to struggle and rage about it, its to test content. Some people forget what beta is for, that's why you always get the odd noob crying about lost progress from beta to live

[Annelie]

Dungeons before lvl 50 was always really easy, and they are even easier now with upgraded gear. So i dont see the problem at all. If you want 1.12 patch then you get 1.12 patch easymode.

[ManiaCCC]

could you provide examples of hard in a video game?

Any pro starcraft match

PvE wise, honestly - probably not but there are definitely harder games than anything WoW has to offer imho - on individual skill level - like Dark Souls

[Farah]

Any pro starcraft match

PvE wise, honestly - probably not but there are definitely harder games than anything WoW has to offer imho - on individual skill level - like Dark Souls

While WoW certainly doesn't have as high a skill cap as some other games/genres, if you really think content in classic was "just as hard as any WoW content" you are plainly delusional.

[ManiaCCC]

While WoW certainly doesn't have as high a skill cap as some other games/genres, if you really think content in classic was "just as hard as any WoW content" you are plainly delusional.

I think it's actually harder, at least base content of Classic is ..well, more punishing (as some would call it "tedious")

In current WoW, some raids have definitely challenging encounters (challenging in sense you have to memorize more patterns) and definitely mythic raiding is harder than Vanilla raiding - too bad 99% of content in current content is brain dead. At least for me was.

[BrillGates]

That's funny considering this thread's name. Or constant reddit posts which were trying to prove that dungeons are "too easy" because elite mobs were somehow bugged and not doing enough damage. Which then turned into "oh, it's just low level, things are *totally* different later on"... despite previously claiming that even levelling is incredibly challenging at all times.

Me? I'm just mildly amused. My levelling as a vanilla Holy Priest consisted of Renew, auto-wand and alt-tab. Slow, not exactly challenging, but I didn't really care. I three manned some dungeons, did others normally, wiped at times, didn't wipe at others. I barely remember any of the bosses, since most of them had no abilities worth mentioning. Wipes mostly came from pulling a patrol, which can easily happen in modern M+. That, or some instances having 10+ level spread (with Uldaman being a prime example) where you had to outlevel 70% of the place in order for the last part to not have "boss level" enemies.

I'm pretty sure raiding will be the same. Molten Core isn't a realy raid, just wait until BWL. I mean AQ40. I mean Naxx... well that's totally because they must have broken something, like Taunt hit chance or Frost resistance being too powerful.

That's why i said that Classic WoW is not hard, it's challenging.
Renew + auto wand is challenging too, it's time consuming and it's literally a mental challenge... But hard.. No it isn't.

There's quite a difference on hard and challenging.

[re1gn1te]

It was hard compared to any WoW content. No content in WoW is "hard"..not Mythic, not heroic ....nothing.

I mean that's just factually incorrect but ok think what you want !