Can Sylvanas rightfully remain Warchief?

[Super Dickmann]

In my mind, the importance of the Apothecary society would have had nothing to do with the Blight but rather they'd be central to Forsaken culture as the creators and dispensers of preservatives that keep everyone from falling apart too fast.

Why not both?

The way Forsaken actually work has been pretty inconsistent. Like the thing with the old lady I mentioned above comes with an asterisk, because the end point of her physical deterioration wasn't rotting away, but entering the 'mindless state', i.e being a zombie. It was previously kind of a given that the Forsaken didn't rot in the same way or that this could be held at bay with various potions and shit, but that the magic keeping them together waned. Hence why they were also super resistant to harm. Now though, they've moved into them requiring more maintenance, which is also a good angle on its own, but contradictory, since we have stuff like Chadwick's party still showing the old kind of Forsaken resilience.

[Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang]

She does state directly in her internal monologue that the reason she wanted Eyir was to turn all the Forsaken into Nathanos-style undead so they don't degrade over time, effectively making them immortal. It's kind of sketchy how public Sylvanas was about this or about how after you die you go to hell though. The Dark Rangers seem to know, since they reference it when they kicked the bucket that the darkness they see now is what she's trying to save them from. The Desolate Council though seemed unaware. It's a shame, since "You're either this or you burn in hell" would be a pretty excellent propaganda campaign.

Past that, I'm not sure she'd need the sacrifices in the same sense after she gets Eyir and by extension the rest of Odyn's val'kyr. The Scourge Val'kyr were able to use the LK as a battery to preserve dead Vrykul like Ymirjar, which would be our Nathanos-es/Dark Rangers, with the Vargul as regular Forsaken. It seems fair to assume that when it's no longer just four mid-level valks tied to Sylv alone but an army of them tied to a valk goddess, they'd be able to do the same.

Given how as Deathlord we were able to raise fresh Death Knights (essentially what Ymirjar and Nathanos-style undead are), some very powerful (aka the 4 Horsemen), we can assume that the current Lich King's power is still great enough.

If boosting her people to Death Knight type of undeath really is her main goal, she might as well directly aim for taking Bolvar's seat, rather than some convoluted Val'kyr enslavement scheme.

Plus I assume that there are much more Forsaken than existing Val'kyr, or even Vrykul females for that matter... (unless in her Stormwind burning plans she's able to turn all the excess fresh human widows into Val'kyr somehow, the rest of the population being sacrifices or new troops).

And since they are set on mirroring Sylvanas and Arthas, what more fitting than:
-the Frozen Throne cracking from Azeroth's current state (remember Illidan trying to crack Icecrown with the Eye of Sargeras? Don't we have a certain fallen Titan's sword doing a very good job at hurting the planet currently? Plus where is Malfurion this time?)
-Sylvanas sensing an opportunity and journeying to Northrend to dethrone Bolvar
-End of the expansion could be a raid with us chasing Sylvanas across the World, on ships and airships, following her trough Azjol'Nerub and actually losing (kinda like we did in Antorus...), with the final cinematic being Sylvanas succeeding in climbing to the Frozen Throne, stabbing Bolvar and claiming the Crown of Domination and the Frozen Throne for herself, with us fleeing like Illidan did when he lost at the end of TfT (or like we did on Argus, although it was painted as a victory, it was a very pyrrhic one...).

Bonus if Nathanos is with her the whole time, or even the last boss we face. He could crushed by ice as Sylvanas shatters Bolvar's prison.

Its only in a following expansion that we learn that Nathanos survived but lost his memory, having changed to a much more peppy character after being fostered by a clan of Iron Vrykul. The perfect setting for him to return as leader of the Forsaken at some point.

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Forsaken NPCs death talk options suggests most of them don't have a clue. Also that most of them consider being Forsaken a curse and are glad to finally die.

On sacrifices, for the Dark Mirror ritual to work, they needed a human. Not sure if they actually needed him to be related to Nathanos or if any human would work, but they certainly needed a live human to sacrifice during the ritual.

A possibility could be that death is simply not the same for humans and elves.

In-game it has been shown repeatedly that for Elves death is a big thing, with all those Highborne cities filled with powerful ghosts, banshees and lichlings. It is even stressed that one of the major Elune blessings bestowed on the Night Elves is them turning to Wisps rather than more gruesome fates.

For humans it is most of the times depicted as simply fading out, with ghosts and the likes being exceptional. And it might be the same for orcs before the spirits of their dead started being anchored by a fallen Naaru. Likewise Gnomes and Dwarves don't have much ghosts depicted.

If we go back to the origins, in Tolkien's work death is even depicted as the greatest gift of Eru to Men, as they simply to fade away, in contrast to the eternal Elves who journey to the Caverns of Mandos for all eternity.

[Super Dickmann]

Given how as Deathlord we were able to raise fresh Death Knights (essentially what Ymirjar and Nathanos-style undead are), some very powerful (aka the 4 Horsemen), we can assume that the current Lich King's power is great enough.

If boosting her people to Death Knight type of undeath, she might as well directly aim at taking Bolvar's seat, rather than some convoluted Val'kyr enslavement scheme.

Plus I assume that there are much more Forsaken than existing Val'kyr, or even Vrykul females for that matter... (unless in her Stormwind burning plans she's able to turn all the excess fresh human widows into Val'kyr somehow, the rest of the population being sacrifices or new troops).

I'm still subscribed to her being an old god puppet theory, but if that's not the case I think you've got a good bet, especially since after this fuck-up they'll want to cash in and the LK and Scourge are still very popular. That said, I don't think that if it happens it'll be in this expansion. They've beat us over the head about how we have to team up to deal with N'zoth and while I'd be much happier if he and the old gods got more focus in a proper expansion rather than be relegated to the side-fodder in a Mists retread, it's very likely. If Sylvanas doesn't get dealt with in side content as well or as part of the N'zoth raid, I can see your scenario (bar the bit with Nathanos), playing out that or Sylvanas using her powers to steal a portion of the Shadowlands, leading us into a turf war between the LK, her, Bwon, his boss and the other powers.

A possibility could be that death is simply not the same for humans and elves.

In-game it has been shown repeatedly that for Elves death is a big thing, with all those Highborne cities filled with powerful ghosts, banshees and lichlings. It is even stressed that one of the major Elune blessings bestowed on the Night Elves is them turning to Wisps rather than more gruesome fates.

For humans it is most of the times depicted as simply fading out, with ghosts and the likes being exceptional. And it might be the same for orcs before the spirits of their dead started being anchored by a fallen Naaru. Likewise Gnomes and Dwarves don't have much ghosts depicted.

It's more cosmic power related than race related. We know from Chronicle that unless another power has dibs on you, the way the Emerald Dream/Elune has on the nelves or the Light has on people who follow it, you burn in hell/the Shadowlands. You can also linger as a ghost. There are dwarf ghosts in Hillsbrad.

[Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang]

I'm still subscribed to her being an old god puppet theory, but if that's not the case I think you've got a good bet, especially since after this fuck-up they'll want to cash in and the LK and Scourge are still very popular. That said, I don't think that if it happens it'll be in this expansion. They've beat us over the head about how we have to team up to deal with N'zoth and while I'd be much happier if he and the old gods got more focus in a proper expansion rather than be relegated to the side-fodder in a Mists retread, it's very likely. If Sylvanas doesn't get dealt with in side content as well or as part of the N'zoth raid, I can see your scenario (bar the bit with Nathanos), playing out that or Sylvanas using her powers to steal a portion of the Shadowlands, leading us into a turf war between the LK, her, Bwon, his boss and the other powers.

It's more cosmic power related than race related. We know from Chronicle that unless another power has dibs on you, the way the Emerald Dream/Elune has on the nelves or the Light has on people who follow it, you burn in hell/the Shadowlands. You can also linger as a ghost. There are dwarf ghosts in Hillsbrad.

Given all the heavy recruitment we did on behalf of Bolvar and the Ebon Blade during Legion, some LK+Scourge content ought to be in the pipeline. I hope this time they will do justice to the Nerubian, of which we saw so little in WotLK, plus it could tie with some Old Gods content.

[matrix123mko]

Sylvanas fanboys are the worst. It's like non of you played before Cata.... The forsaken intro when you make a damn forsaken has always been "We are using the horde" as a means to an end so Sylvanas can carry out her plan to turn everyone undead LOL. Like STFU about Sylvanas go make you GF or mom dress up in cosplay and go fulfill your fantasies.

I love how Alliance fanatics accuse every Sylvanas supporter of sexual fantasies.

[Hubbl3]

I love how Alliance fanatics accuse every Sylvanas supporter of sexual fantasies.

Don't worry, they also accuse Sylvi supporters of being Nazis IRL.

[matrix123mko]

Don't worry, they also accuse Sylvi supporters of being Nazis IRL.

And being paid by Steve Danuser.

[Super Dickmann]

And being paid by Steve Danuser.

The Danuser stuff gets funnier once you realize that save for his focus on Nathanos, he's the quintessential muh honor poster and he did an interview at the very start of this expansion going on about how the Horde should be about honor and courage and how Saurfang and Sylvanas are both its past that it must move beyond. It's only the fact that he cares about even one Forsaken character that sets him apart from Afrasiabi's sadorc circlejerk or Golden's fixation on human potential. All agree on world peace.

[Zandalariprelate]

I mean I am pretty sure the plan about getting many Val'kyr from Eyir was not just so she has backups to rez her but rather to slowly perform the Dark Mirror ritual for more of the Forsaken. Which incidentally would require a fuckton of human sacrifices.

I always though the Val'kyr needed the extra ingredient aka nathanos's cousin because without the lich king empowerment they are very weak by their own and for "advanced necromancy" rituals, they require some power battery to perform right said ritual.

Eyir seems to be powerful enough to work as the battery that Sylvanas require to make every rotten forsaken into a more like Nathanos undead.

[Skildar]

it would be very cool for her actions to pay off for the horde and that saurfang teams find themselves in a more obvious position where they either destroy the horde by fighting to remove Sylvanas or letting her be for now to ensure dominance of the horde and politically have to limit her grasp over the horde

[Winged Hussar]

Sure there has been a little friction as of late, but the Horde has churned through too many Warchieves.

Is there any future path where Sylvanas can remain Warchief? From where the story is at as we know it right now. Is there any story arc that you can think of where Sylvanas can rightfully remain Warchief that can be considered remotely plausible? Or is it a 100% certainty that she will be dethroned?

It should be clear for everyone to see at this point that there will be a rebellion led by Thrall, Saurfang, possibly Baine and others, who will fight against Sylvanas, taking her down, and probably replacing her as warchief with either Baine or Thrall. There will most likely be a split (storywise) between the traditional Horde (Tauren, Trolls and Orcs) and the rest of the Horde (Forsaken, Blood Elves and Goblins).

[Feanoro]

Once she's a Xel'Naga, why would she settle for the lowly title of warchief?

I love how Alliance fanatics accuse every Sylvanas supporter of sexual fantasies.

No one believes you like her nasal voice.

Would that be the same Alliance players the Lich Queen supporters accuse of racism, sexism, bribing the writing staff, oppressing the Horde playerbase (somehow, have yet to get a decent explanation here), and other fun far worse than "You like her boobies"?

[matrix123mko]

It should be clear for everyone to see at this point that there will be a rebellion led by Thrall, Saurfang, possibly Baine and others, who will fight against Sylvanas, taking her down, and probably replacing her as warchief with either Baine or Thrall. There will most likely be a split (storywise) between the traditional Horde (Tauren, Trolls and Orcs) and the rest of the Horde (Forsaken, Blood Elves and Goblins).

Trolls aren't as "honorable" as orcs so I can imagine them splitting between two political parties.

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it would be very cool for her actions to pay off for the horde and that saurfang teams find themselves in a more obvious position where they either destroy the horde by fighting to remove Sylvanas or letting her be for now to ensure dominance of the horde and politically have to limit her grasp over the horde

Of course, in current writing Saurfang didn't think even for a second that starting civil war can weaken the Horde.

[Fetus Rex]

Of course. But Blood Oath would need to mean something. Racial leaders are born for treason so no chance. They will flail their limp morals and speak about imbecilic honor. There will be three more cnematics with Thrall and Saurfang with a lot of sad music and death, probably of that young and stupid troll.

[Winged Hussar]

Trolls aren't as "honorable" as orcs so I can imagine them splitting between two political parties.

You first have to define what "honourable" even means. People continuously fail to define that properly. There doesn't seem to be a consensus on what that even means. As for the Darkspear trolls, I think of the split as the WC3 Horde vs. the additional WoW Horde races, and the Darkspears were part of the WC3 Horde. It's the traditional core. I know Goblins were part of the WC2 Horde, but that was more of an "evil" Horde as opposed to Thrall's "redeemed Horde". And as part of that redeemed Horde the Darkspear have been pretty whitewashed as they dropped their cannibalism. Forsaken on the other hand are still very much evil, I mean undoubtedly as evil as it gets for a player race. They are right on the edge of being driven to kill all living beings. Goblins can't be seen as very good-natured either, as they are always shown as being greedy, selfish and reckless. Also Gallywix is the worst racial leader next to Sylvanas, and he has a pretty good "relationship" to her. The Blood Elves I would not consider evil, but they might be forced to cooperate with Sylvanas (again) considering their history and the close proximity to the Forsaken.

[Gref]

Reminder that Alliance players exist, and the vast majority of us will NEVER accept that. Sylvanas must pay for her crimes.

Oh, and for the record, that Saurfang storyline had better lead to something big after the amount of Orc potential that Blizzard shoved down my throat.

lol ffs, easy on that edge. it is a game.

[Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang]

I always though the Val'kyr needed the extra ingredient aka nathanos's cousin because without the lich king empowerment they are very weak by their own and for "advanced necromancy" rituals, they require some power battery to perform right said ritual.

Eyir seems to be powerful enough to work as the battery that Sylvanas require to make every rotten forsaken into a more like Nathanos undead.

But since Eyir appears to be powered by the Light, wouldn't they instead be turned into Calia-style undeads instead?

[Varodoc]

lol ffs, easy on that edge. it is a game.

A game to which I sometimes pay a monthly subscription, and which I have played for a decade.

[matrix123mko]

You first have to define what "honourable" even means. People continuously fail to define that properly. There doesn't seem to be a consensus on what that even means. As for the Darkspear trolls, I think of the split as the WC3 Horde vs. the additional WoW Horde races, and the Darkspears were part of the WC3 Horde. It's the traditional core. I know Goblins were part of the WC2 Horde, but that was more of an "evil" Horde as opposed to Thrall's "redeemed Horde". And as part of that redeemed Horde the Darkspear have been pretty whitewashed as they dropped their cannibalism. Forsaken on the other hand are still very much evil, I mean undoubtedly as evil as it gets for a player race. They are right on the edge of being driven to kill all living beings. Goblins can't be seen as very good-natured either, as they are always shown as being greedy, selfish and reckless. Also Gallywix is the worst racial leader next to Sylvanas, and he has a pretty good "relationship" to her. The Blood Elves I would not consider evil, but they might be forced to cooperate with Sylvanas (again) considering their history and the close proximity to the Forsaken.

Being allied with Thrall, who helped them survive, doesn't make them followers of his teachings. Trolls don't have many orc customs. They don't believe in "victory or death" they can use dark magicks, they have nothing against stabbing someone in the back. I would say that they have elven morality. Orcs and tauren are the only Horde races that believe in Thrall's code of honor.

Also, you are very hateful towards the Forsaken. Killing people with chemical weaponry doesn't make you "enemy of all life".

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But since Eyir appears to be powered by the Light, wouldn't they instead be turned into Calia-style undeads instead?

She is golden but Odyn grasps his necromantic powers from shapeless being of Shadowlands.

[Winged Hussar]

Being allied with Thrall, who helped them survive, doesn't make them followers of his teachings.

Who said it would?