R.IO is useless to me, I want to know something else.

[Black Goat]

Then all those players who refuse to master a 15 year old game and inconvenience 4 other people with their incompetence should stop being a douche or enjoy their punishment.

A Mythic+ 10 does not require mastery of the entire game. If one person makes a small mistake and your knee-jerk reaction is to abandon 3 others, 4 including the person who made the mistake, I'm sorry, but you're the douche.

In Legion, I was doing +25 with my Mythic guild. I know how frustrating it is to make mistakes or for others to make them, but that's not an excuse to be an asshole. But I guess anonymity protects people like you.

Please try reducing your hyperbole.

[ID811717]

I've been around for gearscore and I've been around for legion and BFA io, from my own personal exp people who use these add ons, especially the higher ups tend to be way more toxic than the average pugger

The higher ups are actually forced to not be toxic, or to tone it down a lot. Otherwise they destroy their own reputation and their peers don't play with them anymore. The high key push community is small, you can not afford this.

The most toxic players are the ones who invested a lot of effort&time to push keys but never got the payoff in terms of proportional score increase. It's understandable, they are pissed off at everything failing for them (even if it's often their own fault). They are stuck at low enough score that there are nearly no consequences if they treat people like shit (because there are so many players with similar score).

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People that have raged in a few of those slog groups I've been in have never been the offenders.

I think the biggest ragers in the game (both in M+ and raid pugs) are usually the players with bad situational awareness or bad mechanical skills. They correctly determine that something is wrong, but either fail to understand what exactly is wrong, or fail to understand that they can step in and fix the problem with minimal effort (instead of losing most of their performance because they have to type in chat now). It's usually a weird situation where a bad player is raging at someone or something (sometimes you cannot attribute the failure to anyone in particular), and the rest of the group have to endure it while trying to also carry the bad player who is raging instead of playing.

It's also important to distinguish between a situation where something failed and the group lost 2-3 minutes as a result, may be leading to a depleted key... And a situation where the group has been running into a wall committing suicide like a bunch of lemmings for 1.5 straight hours in a weekly key. I won't hold it against anyone if they snap in the latter case.

[BeepBoo]

A Mythic+ 10 does not require mastery of the entire game. If one person makes a small mistake and your knee-jerk reaction is to abandon 3 others, 4 including the person who made the mistake, I'm sorry, but you're the douche.

Mastery in the sense that I'm talking doesn't mean absolutely no mistakes, and causing a wipe isn't a small mistake. Also,you're putting my acceptance of a toxic attitude on my as if I am that toxic person. I've never left a group first. Ever. I've never talked shit to people in my dungeon runs. Ever. I'll leave if someone else rages and quits, but I'll be cordial. Regardless, just because I choose to act with restraint doesn't mean I'm not fine with someone else acting without it. I am. Learn the difference between personal morals and public policy.

In Legion, I was doing +25 with my Mythic guild. I know how frustrating it is to make mistakes or for others to make them, but that's not an excuse to be an asshole.

Who needs an excuse? I stated my reasons for not minding if people are toxic assholes outwardly. Makes my games better from a "I don't have to worry about who I get paired with randomly if the only people in the game are good."

Just because you think people should act one way doesn't mean that's how everyone thinks they should act.

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It's also important to distinguish between a situation where something failed and the group lost 2-3 minutes as a result, may be leading to a depleted key... And a situation where the group has been running into a wall committing suicide like a bunch of lemmings for 1.5 straight hours in a weekly key. I won't hold it against anyone if they snap in the latter case.

I won't hold it against anyone in either case. Depleting a 10 key is an embarrassment to anyone involved. It's pathetically easy to do at this point.

As for the biggest rager, I vividly remember the last time I saw one. He was a DH pulling 15k dps back when most good dps were pulling maybe 10k, he had 15s in everything, and was on mythrax in uldir. We wiped 3 times to trash in AD thanks to people not knowing how to do ghuunies, and he went off on the idiots who weren't focus firing them down (after inspecting logs and seeing that tank + other DPS weren't pulling their weight) for like 2 minutes. The other members tried to calm him, and he chain pulled, left group, and hearthed.

Competence comes in all forms of personalities, and honestly in my experience, short fuse high strung people who demand excellence of themselves also often times don't give others any slack. That's not me, but it is what I've seen from some of the very best performers in almost any activity I've done, including plenty of sports.

[Memnok]

I usually run a guild group on my main, but pug my alts. I would love a system that lets me know how many flameouts a person has had. The week before 8.2 dropped I was running a 14 freehold pug, we were getting shit done, with 12min to go we were chasing the greased pig, already had the other bosses down. Healer says something to the tank about pulling to much and making it too hard on him, the tank's response was something along the line of "whatever we done with trash anyway". We had no deaths up until this point, I'm not sure if anything was whispered between the two but the healer took offense got off an Eff bomb and left, the tank responds Eff you back and he leaves and the 3 dps are just sitting there wondering what the hell just happened.

.

[Simmias]

if you pug anything over a +15 you deserve everything you get.

[ID811717]

if you pug anything over a +15 you deserve everything you get.

The pugging threshold depends on so many things. Your mechanical skills, your social skills, your region, your fraction... My experience on EU horde is that all dungeons are easy to do in time on +21 in full pugs. +22s are hit or miss in full pugs. And I have not timed +23s in full pugs yet, only with friends or with my predmade group.

I got a lot of enjoyment and score from pugging. Give it a try. The higher keys you play, the better are the pug groups. You also make friends along the way.

[Hinastorm]

I've never used it, and I never will.

The elitism and meta slavery is rampant in pug M+. I understand it, people want the highest chance of not wasting their time, but I have no interest in participating.

It's far past time to let us queue for low (maybe 5 and lower) keys.

[Trend]

I've never used it, and I never will.

The elitism and meta slavery is rampant in pug M+. I understand it, people want the highest chance of not wasting their time, but I have no interest in participating.

It's far past time to let us queue for low (maybe 5 and lower) keys.

Honest question: how many PUG keys have you completed in time for +2 to +5 in all of BfA? How many would you guess your group has failed?

I was always ahead of the curve in Legion and never ran low keys except for the very first day of the first season. Coming back to keys in BfA mid-tier I was shocked by what I found. 12's and higher are basically the same as they've ever been, but the level of complete incompetence at +8 and below was simply bewildering. It's not even dungeon specific stuff - it's a lot of people who have zero idea how to play the game at all. Then on top of that they don't know a single dungeon mechanic.

But I totally get what you are saying and I totally would have agreed before going through the hell that is sub-10 key PUG'ing.

Also, just a side note, but you don't have to be elitist or care about the metas (irrelevant for under 18-20 anyway) to use raider.io. I invite people who have some demonstrated track record of doing similar type content. I've had a few rude elitist people in groups, but that's been the exception. I think it's actually a pretty nice community once you get in the 12 and higher range.

[Hinastorm]

Honest question: how many PUG keys have you completed in time for +2 to +5 in all of BfA? How many would you guess your group has failed?

I was always ahead of the curve in Legion and never ran low keys except for the very first day of the first season. Coming back to keys in BfA mid-tier I was shocked by what I found. 12's and higher are basically the same as they've ever been, but the level of complete incompetence at +8 and below was simply bewildering. It's not even dungeon specific stuff - it's a lot of people who have zero idea how to play the game at all. Then on top of that they don't know a single dungeon mechanic.

But I totally get what you are saying and I totally would have agreed before going through the hell that is sub-10 key PUG'ing.

Also, just a side note, but you don't have to be elitist or care about the metas (irrelevant for under 18-20 anyway) to use raider.io. I invite people who have some demonstrated track record of doing similar type content. I've had a few rude elitist people in groups, but that's been the exception. I think it's actually a pretty nice community once you get in the 12 and higher range.

I'll be honest, I haven't ran a pug m+ since legion, and it was pretty bad (elitism, meta slavery) back then. All the available data i've seen, including increased use of raider.io, leads me to believe its gotten worse since then.

[Trend]

I'll be honest, I haven't ran a pug m+ since legion, and it was pretty bad (elitism, meta slavery) back then. All the available data i've seen, including increased use of raider.io, leads me to believe its gotten worse since then.

I think the increased use of raider.io is due to the people that have no clue who are now applying for keys. I don't think that people with no clue tried to run keys way beyond their means and knowledge like they do now.

When I started using raider.io for lower keys I felt like I was being a dick somehow, but wow, it made life so much better. I don't use it for anything other than weeding ppl out who have no business doing the key. Someone applying for an 8 who has never done anything about a not-in-time 2 just isn't going to work out. They're not going to know any of the mechanics and it's just going to be frustrating.