Is WoW still a MMORPG?

[Aucald]

So tired of reading these mindless, driveling posts about how retail is some kind of action RPG while Classic wasn’t. They have the same fundamentals, they have the same button input ideology, they have the same movement setup.
They. Are. The. Same.
Just because you auto attack more and only pull 1 mob at a time doesn’t mean it’s any less of an action based RPG game. It’s just slower paced action.
I challenge you to please, please, find me instances in Classic where you are doing turn based, static standing combat as the primary and only way of doing combat. Then show me where you can’t play the same as in Retail.

They don't feel the same at an element level, though; at least not to me. The speed of action is greatly increased, the spread of abilities is reduced, the style is more focused and less meandering - the overall feel the game itself is simply quicker. In Classic, for example, taking one 1-2 mobs is something of a challenge when the levels are equal - it involves a degree of micromanagement between kiting one mob while focusing the other. In BfA, by contrast, I can easily wade into combat with 6-9 Naga mobs in Nazjatar and mow them down without ever really feeling in danger and with no sense of micromanagement of my abilities - I just AoE up a storm and everything dies and I'm at 80% health (then 100% again when I Death Strike a nearby mob to max myself).

Slower paced action feels more to me like a second generation MMORPG, whereas faster paced actions feels more like an ARPG (more "Diablo" than "Curse of the Azure Bonds"). The button setup and UI don't matter overly when the pace of the game itself feels altered at the foundational level. And again, I'm not saying fast pace is a bad thing on the face of it - I actually kind of prefer it these days, as I tend to play on shorter shifts and I like to get what I want to do done in short order. Just remarking on how the game has changed compared to its earlier incarnation.

[Andonais]

Not really many mmo features are automated and most rpg mechanics have been removed its a streamlined theme park collection game for the most part.

[glowpipe]

Classic is identical. It just has massive downtime in between the same action. :S

But don't you see. Standing in a queue for a mob and kill it one by one is interacting with players. Having to wait for 10 minutes with a bunch of other people who doesn't say a word, to get a named mob for a simple non rewarding leveling quest is interacting. /s

[Aucald]

Oh shit, yes, more like a ARPG, i wonder, did it start with MoP? Hmmm... grindy ARPGs is super popular in Asia, did activision here force the game to better please the asian market? Maybe.

I kind of think the change began with WotLK, to be honest - that when I noticed the speed of gameplay seem to speed up remarkably. It's continued apace on into MoP and has now reached a point where I think we've largely tipped away from MMORPG and into MMOARPG territory.

[Thrif]

I think it still counts as one, but only because the definition of RPG in games is super lax. A majority of games being passed off as RPGs aren't really RPGs, including modern wow.

[cparle87]

Oh shit, yes, more like a ARPG, i wonder, did it start with MoP? Hmmm... grindy ARPGs is super popular in Asia, did activision here force the game to better please the asian market? Maybe.

ARPG = still an RPG. Also I think it would've begun in Cata. When they remade the world they also updated a great deal of mobs. That's was when things like even low level mobs having indicators warning you not to be here to avoid a swipe or a leap and made combat more interesting than just the combat table and CC.

[pacotaco]

It lacks some of the criteria to be considered a mmo.
From wiki.

Massively multiplayer online role-playing games (MMORPGs) are a combination of role-playing video games and massively multiplayer online games in which a very large number of players interact with one another within a virtual world.

It can be discusses. Since everything is instanced and the world is smaller then 1/3 of Kalimdor it sure doesn't feel like an mmo.
Interact? Cant remember last time I interacted with someone, enter a m+ group without saying a word count? Might aswell be bots playing.

You teleport from one place to another, thats what you do.

It's so stupid that I can't even see guild mates standing next to me if we're not in party. I have to group up with my guild mates in order to trade them or inspect them even if we stand next to eachother.

You're mixing thing. Is WoW a MMORPG? Yes, it is.
Is WoW less sandbox-y than Vanilla was? Yes (even if Vanilla wasn't too sanbox-y to start with).

Would WoW benefit for turning more into a sandbox-y? I'm pretty sure that wouldn't, and even it'd harm it.
Warcraft is a very strongly story-driven IP and it benefits the most while the story goes on.

Maybe you should look that type gameplay (sandbox MMORPG) out there. Pretty sure that there are some of them going on (EVE coming to mind).

[d00mh4cker]

I kind of think the change began with WotLK, to be honest - that when I noticed the speed of gameplay seem to speed up remarkably. It's continued apace on into MoP and has now reached a point where I think we've largely tipped away from MMORPG and into MMOARPG territory.

MMOARPG is a good description. The gameplay feels more alined with diablo 3 which is an ARPG. Its not gameplay that feels more like diablo 3.

Mythic plus - Grifts.
Talent trees.
Speed.
How you aquire gear. (lots of gear but few good, RNG, the grind)
Azerite - Paragon

[hulkgor]

Of course it is.

A more 'diluted' RPG over the years, but very much still an MMORPG.

[Cosmic Janitor]

Maybe you should look that type gameplay (sandbox MMORPG) out there. Pretty sure that there are some of them going on (EVE coming to mind).

If you look for sandboxy i'd point people towards the (sandbox) mp survival genre. They are also heavily stats driven (which is maybe less apparent), have the social interactions and the sandbox gameplay you'd expect of an actual RPG that features multiplayer. Sadly they are also swamped with pricks.

[d00mh4cker]

You're mixing thing. Is WoW a MMORPG? Yes, it is.
Is WoW less sandbox-y than Vanilla was? Yes (even if Vanilla wasn't too sanbox-y to start with).

Would WoW benefit for turning more into a sandbox-y? I'm pretty sure that wouldn't, and even it'd harm it.
Warcraft is a very strongly story-driven IP and it benefits the most while the story goes on.

Maybe you should look that type gameplay (sandbox MMORPG) out there. Pretty sure that there are some of them going on (EVE coming to mind).

I would agree with you, but stats show otherwise.
The fact that the game around wotlk/cata had 12 million subs and now around 1 million. Something went wrong. It's hard to argue with someone who still enjoys wow as for those players the game is just fine but you kinda have to look at the numbers here. Almost 90% of the subs have dropped off.

Ofcourse they probably would drop of subs because of several reasons but still, 90%, that's a lot.

If Classic is still live and healty in 3 months we will probably see some changes to retails wow during blizzcon.

I believe Blizzard needs to find it roots when it comes to WoW and what made it so good and popular before.

[Eapoe]

They don't feel the same at an element level, though; at least not to me. The speed of action is greatly increased, the spread of abilities is reduced, the style is more focused and less meandering - the overall feel the game itself is simply quicker. In Classic, for example, taking one 1-2 mobs is something of a challenge when the levels are equal - it involves a degree of micromanagement between kiting one mob while focusing the other. In BfA, by contrast, I can easily wade into combat with 6-9 Naga mobs in Nazjatar and mow them down without ever really feeling in danger and with no sense of micromanagement of my abilities - I just AoE up a storm and everything dies and I'm at 80% health (then 100% again when I Death Strike a nearby mob to max myself).

Slower paced action feels more to me like a second generation MMORPG, whereas faster paced actions feels more like an ARPG (more "Diablo" than "Curse of the Azure Bonds"). The button setup and UI don't matter overly when the pace of the game itself feels altered at the foundational level. And again, I'm not saying fast pace is a bad thing on the face of it - I actually kind of prefer it these days, as I tend to play on shorter shifts and I like to get what I want to do done in short order. Just remarking on how the game has changed compared to its earlier incarnation.

Your post has nothing in it that makes Classic out to be anything other than an action RPG. Sure, you can try and argue the pace is slower; but that doesn’t mean it’s still not what it is.
It’s a flawed argument brought up by Classic fans to somehow make Classic seem further apart from retail than what it actually is.
If someone likes the gameplay better, that’s entirely fine and a great opinion to express, but to call one an action RPG and pretend the other is not comes across as a lie. Which is what it is.

[Aucald]

ARPG = still an RPG, bro. Also I think it would've begun in Cata. When they remade the world they also updated a great deal of mobs. That's was when things like even low level mobs having indicators warning you not to be here to avoid a swipe or a leap and made combat more interesting than just the combat table and CC.

An ARPG does still RPG elements, yes; they're just more sketched or implied than an outright element of the game's systems. I think what has happened to professions in WOW is kind of the microcosm where this difference is sort of put in strong relief - back in earlier incarnations of WoW a profession was a key part of a given player's identity in the world, and they were very important to both how the game was played and how your character advanced itself. As WoW went on they grow successively less and less important to the game as a whole, until they've basically become an afterthought - not even something you really need except in a handful of edge cases. One or two minor changes and professions could disappear from WoW altogether without anyone really noticing it.

- - - Updated - - -

Your post has nothing in it that makes Classic out to be anything other than an action RPG. Sure, you can try and argue the pace is slower; but that doesn’t mean it’s still not what it is.
It’s a flawed argument brought up by Classic fans to somehow make Classic seem further apart from retail than what it actually is.
If someone likes the gameplay better, that’s entirely fine and a great opinion to express, but to call one an action RPG and pretend the other is not comes across as a lie. Which is what it is.

Classic WoW doesn't feel like an ARPG, though; it feels like a second generation MMORPG - it's more like "EverQuest" than "Diablo." It isn't just the pace, either; it's just elemental to how the game is played and how the player advances in power - or I guess you could say it's pacing in both the microcosmic and macrocosmic senses. I am not myself a "Classic fan," either; so I don't know where that charge is really coming from. I dipped into Classic to indulge in some nostalgia for a bygone era, but I've little interest in playing it to the end-game because, well, been there and done that. Outside seeing the old world prior to its many changes I've not got much interest in Classic, although I don't see it as a bad thing either.

I don't think calling Retail WoW an MMOARPG is a blandishment either - as I said above, I actually kind of prefer it this way as it is more in keeping with the way I personally play it. YMMV, of course, the same for Classic as a style of play. I was just trying to explain how I felt the game had changed from its earlier days to the modern era.

[Cosmic Janitor]

I would agree with you, but stats show otherwise.
The fact that the game around wotlk/cata had 12 million subs and now around 1 million. Something went wrong. It's hard to argue with someone who still enjoys wow as for those players the game is just fine but you kinda have to look at the numbers here. Almost 90% of the subs have dropped off.

Ofcourse they probably would drop of subs because of several reasons but still, 90%, that's a lot.

If Classic is still live and healty in 3 months we will probably see some changes to retails wow during blizzcon.

I believe Blizzard needs to find it roots when it comes to WoW and what made it so good and popular before.

You need to put the 12 million into perspective. By the time the game reached that number they've been burning through roughly 100 million acounts made (MANY in china), that means 88% of the people that played the game didn't give a flying fuck to stay, even at the time of it's peak. WoW was simply extremely popular but couldn't convince many people to keep playing ad infinitum. Alot of that 12 million was probably still just part of the momentum while the game has reached the largest part of it's potential playerbase by that time. Markets change, the hype ended and people went to play other games. Blizzard even admitted that an incredibly large chunk of players never even reached max level. The development of the playerbase is a function over time with alot of hidden variables, making grand assumptions based purely on the displayed value is most likely not doing it justice.

[dextersmith]

It's so stupid that I can't even see guild mates standing next to me if we're not in party. I have to group up with my guild mates in order to trade them or inspect them even if we stand next to eachother.

I haven't played in years and was thinking of coming back but I didn't know the game is in such a state.

[Apexis]

It lacks some of the criteria to be considered a mmo.
From wiki.


Massively multiplayer online role-playing games (MMORPGs) are a combination of role-playing video games and massively multiplayer online games in which a very large number of players interact with one another within a virtual world.


It can be discusses. Since everything is instanced and the world is smaller then 1/3 of Kalimdor it sure doesn't feel like an mmo.
Interact? Cant remember last time I interacted with someone, enter a m+ group without saying a word count? Might aswell be bots playing.


You teleport from one place to another, thats what you do.


It's so stupid that I can't even see guild mates standing next to me if we're not in party. I have to group up with my guild mates in order to trade them or inspect them even if we stand next to eachother.

Yes, WoW is still what it was supposed to be in an MMORPG. Though if one goes by one that wants to carry candles and bullets in their bags to feel some sense of RPG immersion, then no, to them the game is no longer in its purest form. Any QoL is completely unacceptable and the least bit of change sends this type of person completely off the insane rails. The purest have been selling Vanilla as the best thing since sliced bread for more than a decade. Now those that did not play are getting their chance.


Yet the purist that are still not able to get in and play are making all kinds of threats in demanding their access. Never mind the whole point of doing Classic was to try to bring back a sense of community and that has already largely failed on both sides. One only has to look at these forums here on MMO-C and the official forums to see the level of abused people after 15 years are still beating the hell out of one another of their version of what is acceptable content or not. Now grant you not everyone takes to the forums, but then they do not have too. Inside the game itself for years people been treating other people that are less skilled than them like crap. Some of those people may deserve some level of treatment they receive. Though the bulk of people are just lumped into one big pot and treated like some kind of plague.


What this has led to is more and more people refusing to interact with one another over time. Course the purist and such blame things like the LFD and the LFR for the community going in the tank. When it is the various factions and clicks that have made the community what it largely is over time. If anything, both the LFD and later the LFR very much showed all the various shortcomings of this player base.


My own experience with dealing with many people over my 12 years of playing this game has led me to massively selective in the people I will engage in the game. Was not how it was when I started playing this game. Yes, my initial perception of this game was skewed from the very first guild I had joined. The guild leader was a complete and utter ego-driven dipstick. As a result of him, I found myself questing and doing things by myself. One day I was questing and met up with a person that chose to give me some help. I did not ask for help they just extend their hand to help me out. I have never forgotten that experience and it is why I still play WoW today. As it turned out I ended up joining their guild, which got its start in Vanilla. Over time, I joined their sister guild as well and stayed with both of them until many of the leadership of both guilds stopped playing at the end of Wrath. Many did not like the direction Cata was taking the game, after playing through the content myself, I understand why many chose to stop playing WoW.


To cut this short, I have Improvise, Adapt, and Overcome both the changes Blizzard has made over time as well as the many shortcomings of the community itself over 12 years of playing WoW. I still interact with various people and I help people that are looking for help or not looking for help but look to be having a difficult time of it from time to time. I always help those that people in trade chat or any other chat choose to marginalize and treat like some type of plague. I know what it was like when I first started to play WoW and the level of kindness one person chose to give to me when they did not have to do so.


That is the WoW community I remember and I still try to adhere to help people who are trying to get their foothold in playing the game. I was moving it forward before the phrase was ever coined. Though I am the same type of person in real life as I present myself in the game to others. I believe in trying to do my part to make the community I largely played with be extended to newer players or people coming back after so many years to play again.


They're still people like myself, there are still guilds that were like the guilds that helped everyone that willing to be part of something bigger than themselves. It is still nice to see in 2019 that at least parts of this community are like the community of old. Though sadly, there are a lot of people that just feel the sense of ME in this game or a sense that they cannot keep their egos in check for the betterment of the community and the game as a whole. So, yes, WoW is very much still all of its roots. Though one today has to go looking for it, it is not just going to be there for you, you have to work more to find it today, but it is still there if you have enough patience to find and seek it.

[pacotaco]

I would agree with you, but stats show otherwise.
The fact that the game around wotlk/cata had 12 million subs and now around 1 million. Something went wrong. It's hard to argue with someone who still enjoys wow as for those players the game is just fine but you kinda have to look at the numbers here. Almost 90% of the subs have dropped off.

Ofcourse they probably would drop of subs because of several reasons but still, 90%, that's a lot.

If Classic is still live and healty in 3 months we will probably see some changes to retails wow during blizzcon.

I believe Blizzard needs to find it roots when it comes to WoW and what made it so good and popular before.

You people refering to the "12 to 1 mill drop" always forgot one crucial point: WoW was an aberration. Never, in the history of videogame, a MMORPG had that kind of numbers. EVER.
Before WoW, a successful MMORPG would be lucky to have even a 1mill users. It's only normal to drop from those numbers after 15 years, and what we see now is on par with a niche genre.

[Schattenlied]

It technically is, but it sure as hell doesn't feel like one.

[Jujudrood]

Interestingly, based on my own recent experience playing Classic WoW, I've actually crystallized the main difference between the WoW of the current era (often referred to as "Retail WoW") and Classic. Classic straddles the boundaries between the second generation of MMORPG's and the third generation, with the second generation being defined by such titles as "Dark Age of Camelot" and "Ultima Online 2." There's a sense of "clunkiness" to it that is absent more recent MMORPG or even RPG offerings, a stilted feeling of slowness and (artificial) difficulty compared to modern WoW. Retail WoW plays much more like an ARPG with MMO components, I think - it has a smoother, quicker, more action-oriented style of play with a lot of the deeper RPG elements sketched or even completely docked. I might call it something akin to an MMOARPG as opposed to an MMORPG.

This isn't to say that's a bad thing, per se; but it's definitely a difference from its more plodding and more RPG-centric roots. The "MMO" component is style certainly present, but the "RPG" component has been sped up and action-oriented to a large degree.

This is more or less my take on it too.

Retail isn't "bad" at the MMO part; plenty of things *can* have many people interact, it's whether or not they choose to.
In Classic, I said "hi" when I joined a group to kill Zalazane (because my level 7 ass wasn't taking out a lvl 10), then said "thanks" when he was dead and moved on.
Same as Retail when doing a world boss or similar "i need a group for this but nary an ounce of coordination be needed" type of content.

RPG-wise, we assume the role of a champion of our faction and leader of our order, and given they are attempting choice-driven story (which is admittedly incredibly difficult to make feel like a "real choice" since you are guiding millions of people down the same aisle), but in terms of playstyle, Retail is absolutely faster and more akin to an ARPG.
The difference, though, isn't because it's "dumbed down"; far from it. Retail isn't a mage spamming frostbolt until oom then wanding.
But the flow and pacing is much faster and action-oriented as opposed to strategy oriented.
A lot of the "artificial difficulty" has been toned down as well, allowing you to grab multiple mobs and mow them down; an argument of "I am powerful!" can be made for that while the contrary of "lol I'm immortal" can be made as well.
The other factor is the rain of items, where every piece of content, regardless of its triviality, throws gear, mats, etc at you like it's a going out of business sale.
The older school method was "here's some stuff, now grind your ass off for the rest", which is certainly gone for the majority of Retail.

But yeah, overall Retail WoW is very much an MMO and tagging ARPG onto it is very much applicable.

[ConstantinetheGreat]

It lacks some of the criteria to be considered a mmo.
From wiki.

Massively multiplayer online role-playing games (MMORPGs) are a combination of role-playing video games and massively multiplayer online games in which a very large number of players interact with one another within a virtual world.

It can be discusses. Since everything is instanced and the world is smaller then 1/3 of Kalimdor it sure doesn't feel like an mmo.
Interact? Cant remember last time I interacted with someone, enter a m+ group without saying a word count? Might aswell be bots playing.

You teleport from one place to another, thats what you do.

It's so stupid that I can't even see guild mates standing next to me if we're not in party. I have to group up with my guild mates in order to trade them or inspect them even if we stand next to eachother.

I haven’t played it as one for a number of years but that’s fine for me as I don’t have time for a social game anymore. For those who do though the social aspect is still there if you want it. Just join a guild and invest time with them. Pretty easy.