Why exactly are people so anti-LFR?

[KaPe]

If LFR was as damaging as you claim, there would be no mythic raiding guilds anymore. But there's still hundreds of guilds that still run LFR. So the comment of "don't do it if you don't like it" isn't flawed. Sorry your server's raid community sucks. Maybe try looking on another server?

If anything, Mythic guilds dying (if it happens) have more to do with Blizzard fucking up faction balance and ignoring dead servers for years, as well as end boss rewards rarely being worth it outside of mounts. LFR doesn't even factor into it, opening too late and offering too weak loot to play any part.

Sometimes, people make it sound like some random LFR players are seriously demanding nerfs to Mythic difficulty and access to exclusive raid mounts. Only time it happens is when someone thinks they're being cute and trolling others by pretending to be some outraged casual. Any actual nerfs to mythic difficulty have nothing to do with LFR, but devs deciding that the numbers don't quite match and more guilds should be past some tougher bosses by now. "Casuals" have zero idea what makes Mythic Ashvane difficult and why was she nerfed - and couldn't care less.

[Sansnom]

Generally I'm anti-LFR because of the mentality of the playerbase that plays it. LFR as a concept isn't bad, but those who play within it turn me away.

Way to generalize and demonize others base on your own personal prejudices.

TL;DR: The player base is what generally makes people anti-LFR.

At least this is correct you demonstrate yourself as such being part of this player base.

LFR as it currently stands promotes anti-social/selfish behavior which is antithetical to the concept of raiding and MMO gaming in general.

This is where you are are wrong because it does not. If you have evidence of this, please present them.

Your opinion is yours only. Others can have different opinion. Yours is not more correct nor the correct way. That is one of major problem surrounding LFR. Some player such as yourself trying to dictate to others how they should play the game.

[Destinas]

There are people that generally don't like it because it bruises their ego. They dislike the idea of other people having fun in a similar way that they are - despite the fact that they get higher rewards for harder content, like it should be, and it doesn't threaten their playstyle in the slightest. They feel threatened by other people seeing content or enjoying themselves at all.

[Eroginous]

If LFR was as damaging as you claim, there would be no mythic raiding guilds anymore. But there's still hundreds of guilds that still run LFR. So the comment of "don't do it if you don't like it" isn't flawed. Sorry your server's raid community sucks. Maybe try looking on another server?

LFR can be damaging to the game without having any effect on current raiders. That's the point he was making earlier. Current raiding guilds can function just fine alongside LFR. The group that LFR damages are the guilds trying to become serious raiding guilds who do harder content. With little incentive to actually make that jump in difficulty, the average LFR player will never be compelled to move beyond LFR, hindering the growth of guilds who are trying to move beyond it.

When the only option to raid was to join a guild capable of fielding a raid party or pug in a group who allows it, you had to make the choice to step into that environment and follow the social expectations set forth, or risk being removed from the group and losing your raid ability.

When you can just push a button, join a raid, stand the playing badly, and get loot, the average player will never feel compelled to move beyond that. It becomes fair to conclude the presence of that ability is bad for at least some aspect of the game.

[Ekis]

Way to generalize and demonize others base on your own personal prejudices.

Notice throughout your entire post you didn't counter a damned thing I said. But hey, if the shoe fits...

Exhibit A, folks of "I pay $15 to play however I want to"

Not once did I dictate how people wanted to play, I've even said I understood LFR as a concept is fine, but you're so ready to jump into victim complex that you apparently missed that in the same quote you copied.

On top of that, you went straight for ad hominems on an opinion post. Did what I wrote strike a chord or something?

Your opinion is yours only.

That's the definition of an opinion. Like seriously, please quote me where I indicated what I thought was representative of anyone other than myself.

Like rather than try to play victim, read more thoroughly.

This is where you are are wrong because it does not. If you have evidence of this, please present them.

Your post is evidence enough. Not only are you quick to resort to ad hominems, your only rebuttal is "You're wrong" without any substance, meanwhile you literally just ignored the entire amount of evidence of that post where I've clearly already given anecdotal experience.

Better yet, what "evidence" would suffice for your bias when you glossed over that small paragraph in that very post? Screencaps/videos?

[Advent]

LFR can be damaging to the game without having any effect on current raiders. That's the point he was making earlier. Current raiding guilds can function just fine alongside LFR. The group that LFR damages are the guilds trying to become serious raiding guilds who do harder content. With little incentive to actually make that jump in difficulty, the average LFR player will never be compelled to move beyond LFR, hindering the growth of guilds who are trying to move beyond it.

When the only option to raid was to join a guild capable of fielding a raid party or pug in a group who allows it, you had to make the choice to step into that environment and follow the social expectations set forth, or risk being removed from the group and losing your raid ability.

When you can just push a button, join a raid, stand the playing badly, and get loot, the average player will never feel compelled to move beyond that. It becomes fair to conclude the presence of that ability is bad for at least some aspect of the game.

I remember back in 2012 (I had been playing for about 5 years at that point and had been raiding for just as long) I was job hunting online, filling out applications to places like Costco, Best Buy and other retail stores. I was also searching out guilds to continue raiding. Eventually, one day I came to a realization when filling out an application for a guild that this was exactly what I had been doing the whole day. In that moment I had an epiphany; WoW raiding guilds ask you to apply for a job within the guild. It's like a contract you're signing, albeit one without real world consequences for breaking.

When I finally got out of the raiding scene a while later in 2015 I decided to never do that again. I fully understand why guilds do it, to weed out people they don't want to be in their raiding guild. But if I had that realization, I'm sure others did too. I've said it for a long time but I'll make sure to do so for the record here: Raiding guilds drive people away better than the ease of LFR ever could. It's not all sunshine and rainbows, and between server transfers, guild drama (all kinds), scrutinizing logs and parses, farming consumables, etc, raiding is just not an attractive prospect. Is it any wonder why people take the path of least resistance? It's like having another job in a game that's supposed to be fun.

Some people here are right I suppose, that LFR makes raiding higher difficulties less attractive. But most of those people who partake in LFR are probably people who would have never raided in the first place, or did so because they felt they had no other alternative. In the past, people put up with it for various reasons but we have to ask ourselves, "Were the people applying to raiding guilds doing it because they loved raiding, or because it was the only path, and they did so grudgingly?"

[monkaW]

I think the mentality of "I dont care about fight mechanics and i expect to win something everytime i participate" stems from that cesspit called LFR, it doesnt affect me but it definitely affect the game as a whole.

LFR is basically WOW Asylum, its filled with garbage but where else would you put all the garbage? The best thing that you could do is to not enter LFR and let the garbage play with other garbage, lock them there.

Sure, new players might turn into garbage that dont even know how to press defensive and all that because LFR taught them to press 1-2-3 until Determination stack carried them, but we as a community could always wall them off with raider io or charge them gold for a run with us.

[Ekis]

Some people here are right I suppose, that LFR makes raiding higher difficulties less attractive. But most of those people who partake in LFR are probably people who would have never raided in the first place, or did so because they felt they had no other alternative. In the past, people put up with it for various reasons but we have to ask ourselves, "Were the people applying to raiding guilds doing it because they loved raiding, or because it was the only path, and they did so grudgingly?"

But that's the point of raiding though, you're not simply doing it alone and therefore depend on the success of others as well as them depending on you. They don't want to weed people out when they're recruiting; they want to have the best chance of success and ideally want to be sure that the player bringing the class actually knows how to play that class at least well enough to play optimally.

They have no other way to otherwise verify competency so they have to use other measurable stats.

Think of it this way: Instead of raids, there's a 5-man dungeon boss that will wipe our entire group if a tank doesn't hit his mitigation skill or doesn't move out of fire. If I were a were a warrior, asked to tank in intellect gear with a 2-handed weapon and never moved out of fire, would you run with me? Or would you overlook me for someone who knew what they were doing?

If they begrudgingly raided but never would've otherwise, then wouldn't raiding not be for them?

It's like having another job in a game that's supposed to be fun.

You can't look at it like that though. Or rather, if you view it all as a job, see it this way:

For whatever job you go for, you must display the ability to do the job (unless it's unskilled labor). Very few people can walk into that high-paying executive position without knowing what they're doing or having experience. A CEO must have the leadership skills to run a business and manage a team capable of making money a.k.a. "killing bosses for loot", much like a raid leader must manage a team to kill bosses for loot a.k.a. "make money".

If you were said CEO, would you hire Joe Schmo for your Director or VP position with no qualifications or anything to prove that he is competent enough to fill that role? If you're saying "No", why would anyone expect a raid leader to do the same?

Basketball(Raiding) is fun as well, but if your team is playing to win a tournament, would you put Timmy on your team who knows how to dribble and shoot 3-pointers and has videos of his skills or would you go for Billy over there who you have to instruct every step of the way on how to play mid-game to the detriment of yourself and your other team players simply because he wants to play ball (Raid)? If a quarter (raid night) lasts 3 minutes, would you think it was a valuable use of your time (and the time of the rest of your squad) having to take 1-2 30 second breaks to explain to that one person how to beat the other teams(bosses)? Especially if your team already has multiple tournament wins under their belt?

It's why I believe a lot of LFR players are anti-social/selfish/egotistical (Not saying you are any of these, just using the logic behind the post). They'd rather not spend time practicing and training and making themselves seem like a valuable free agent, but feel that because they can pick up a ball or watched a few games on ESPN they should be in the NBA playing on the same team as LeBron.

Now, you can easily prove the naysayers wrong by starting your own team and proving they can win tournaments too, but then you'd understand from a raid leader or team's perspective of why people must be scrutinized.

LFR is the equivalent to pick-up matches on a playground court: Sure, you can play the same game as those NBA players, but you aren't going to earn what those players make without putting yourself out there to be scouted.

[kansor]

From a schematic standpoint, there's nothing wrong with LFR. From an actual gameplay standpoint, it's tedious, excruciating, alienating, boring content that's unworthy of the word "game".

[Eroginous]

I remember back in 2012 (I had been playing for about 5 years at that point and had been raiding for just as long) I was job hunting online, filling out applications to places like Costco, Best Buy and other retail stores. I was also searching out guilds to continue raiding. Eventually, one day I came to a realization when filling out an application for a guild that this was exactly what I had been doing the whole day. In that moment I had an epiphany; WoW raiding guilds ask you to apply for a job within the guild. It's like a contract you're signing, albeit one without real world consequences for breaking.

When I finally got out of the raiding scene a while later in 2015 I decided to never do that again. I fully understand why guilds do it, to weed out people they don't want to be in their raiding guild. But if I had that realization, I'm sure others did too. I've said it for a long time but I'll make sure to do so for the record here: Raiding guilds drive people away better than the ease of LFR ever could. It's not all sunshine and rainbows, and between server transfers, guild drama (all kinds), scrutinizing logs and parses, farming consumables, etc, raiding is just not an attractive prospect. Is it any wonder why people take the path of least resistance? It's like having another job in a game that's supposed to be fun.

Some people here are right I suppose, that LFR makes raiding higher difficulties less attractive. But most of those people who partake in LFR are probably people who would have never raided in the first place, or did so because they felt they had no other alternative. In the past, people put up with it for various reasons but we have to ask ourselves, "Were the people applying to raiding guilds doing it because they loved raiding, or because it was the only path, and they did so grudgingly?"

What you're referring to is certainly a problem that affects some guilds, even today. A lot of it is attitude, though, and social consequence usually takes over at that point. If your guild disbands or removes a player, that is usually to resolve a problem, which is usually better for everyone. I don't really buy into the idea that guilds themselves are toxic by nature or responsible for pushing players to LFR. I think players are generally more compelled to take the route that requires the least social effort from them, at least until something compels them to try harder content, and that some of those players may very well be turned off by the level of social expectation that some guilds might expect.

I've never personally filled out an app to be in a guild and probably never would. It isn't honestly that common until guilds become that serious about raiding, which most aren't. What tends to be more common, are the kind of guilds who have been able to push content to some degree of success and maintain a socially positive guild environment. Usually there is one or two players who become exceptions to the typical rules, or that cause drama, but I don't think it often results in a toxic environment that pushes the average player to LFR.

I would rather tend to think the existence and ease of access to LFR is what pushes and keeps the average player there.

I think the mentality of "I dont care about fight mechanics and i expect to win something everytime i participate" stems from that cesspit called LFR, it doesnt affect me but it definitely affect the game as a whole.

LFR is basically WOW Asylum, its filled with garbage but where else would you put all the garbage? The best thing that you could do is to not enter LFR and let the garbage play with other garbage, lock them there.

Sure, new players might turn into garbage that dont even know how to press defensive and all that because LFR taught them to press 1-2-3 until Determination stack carried them, but we as a community could always wall them off with raider io or charge them gold for a run with us.

It's really the same attitude expressed by some players you find in BGs and dungeons. The kind that will start chat fights about what to do or try to be contrarian leaders despite someone else actually trying to lead the group. That's the nature of a random queue assembling your group. Going to have a difficult time getting anyone on the same page no matter who you are or what you say. If by some miracle you have leadership in a LFR group, it doesn't usually get raid wide support nor does it last long.

I tend to believe players genuinely don't have the opportunity to be better players with these things actively used by default for most of the population. It doesn't prioritize factors that actually matter in a coordinated group environment. Those factors are often what is supposed to determine success or failure, yet they are missing, and the content is somehow still doable... seems to me something wrong with the content.

[scarletanh]

After laughing my ass off reading bout 30-ish pages, I can sum up some of the main point anti-LFR people made:
- Giving gear for doing nothing, gear loot can be warforged/titanforged and make your hard-earned heroic/mythic loot not viable
-> Big fact, you cant doing nothing in LFR and expect the boss to die. Also, gear loot is ilvl 400, when mythic is 445. You can use your whole life luck to get titanforged, and it's not better than mythic based, and let's see, azerite cant get titanforged, neck is fixed, so you can pray some Blizz dev got drunk and give you 10 titanforged pieces in order for the argument to be valid
- LFR can see the content that as they said "supposed to be reward for raiding"
-> Boss mechanic in LFR is merely a torn down version of actually mech, so they are not seeing your challenging experience of other difficulties. If your "content" is not that and you mean the story, it's 2019, internet has youtube and forum where you can see all that story without even playing the game.
So year, what LFR gives is baseline item loot, story content which you could see on youtube without playing the game and an advanced dummy target. So you are not missing anything if people doing LFR and you doing other difficulties. It doesnt deduct any of your incentive for doing higher difficulties.

- Third point, LFR affects raiding community, guild cant recruit ppl, bla bla..
-> people who do LFR are casual and not doing actual raid anytime soon, and they dont expect themselves to raid from the very first start either. Those who do want to progress further will find themselves a guild and move on. I dont see how this affect current guild doing raid.
- LFR make people dumb, not knowing how to play.
-> Again, they ARE NOT doing raid further, why would they need to know how to min max, lining cooldown and other stuff that's for more serious raid? And dont use the excuse of that's not how the game should be played, IT'S THEIR FKING GAME TIME, THEY PLAY HOW THEY WANT, if you see people being dumb because of LFR, then give some pointers to them, people are not 15 years ago who dont know how to move without mouse clicking.
- LFR make people lazy
-> This might be the most comment I see, those who do LFR dont have time to do proper raid, or they cant for other reason, just assuming they are lazy is your ignorance. And if they are indeed lazy, dont want to do proper raid, then so what? Then dont get the incentive of higher difficulties, they get the baseline of what they should have for paying 15$/m, what's wrong with that?

All and all, that's some major point I can gather, there're other comment but some are just too stupid I dont want to put in here. Anyway, cheers lad!

[monkaW]

-> Big fact, you cant doing nothing in LFR and expect the boss to die.

You actually could if you have more than single digit IQ, but lets be honest, its hard to find a guy with one in LFR.

[Otimus]

What you're referring to is certainly a problem that affects some guilds, even today. A lot of it is attitude, though, and social consequence usually takes over at that point. If your guild disbands or removes a player, that is usually to resolve a problem, which is usually better for everyone. I don't really buy into the idea that guilds themselves are toxic by nature or responsible for pushing players to LFR. I think players are generally more compelled to take the route that requires the least social effort from them, at least until something compels them to try harder content, and that some of those players may very well be turned off by the level of social expectation that some guilds might expect.

I've never personally filled out an app to be in a guild and probably never would. It isn't honestly that common until guilds become that serious about raiding, which most aren't. What tends to be more common, are the kind of guilds who have been able to push content to some degree of success and maintain a socially positive guild environment. Usually there is one or two players who become exceptions to the typical rules, or that cause drama, but I don't think it often results in a toxic environment that pushes the average player to LFR.

I would rather tend to think the existence and ease of access to LFR is what pushes and keeps the average player there.



It's really the same attitude expressed by some players you find in BGs and dungeons. The kind that will start chat fights about what to do or try to be contrarian leaders despite someone else actually trying to lead the group. That's the nature of a random queue assembling your group. Going to have a difficult time getting anyone on the same page no matter who you are or what you say. If by some miracle you have leadership in a LFR group, it doesn't usually get raid wide support nor does it last long.

I tend to believe players genuinely don't have the opportunity to be better players with these things actively used by default for most of the population. It doesn't prioritize factors that actually matter in a coordinated group environment. Those factors are often what is supposed to determine success or failure, yet they are missing, and the content is somehow still doable... seems to me something wrong with the content.

I think what I've said earlier in the thread is a core root of the problems most people have with WoW, that the leveling experience being super easy, easily soloable, and doable without knowing your class or spec, or even basic mechanisms of the game, sort of "designs" players to play a certain way, and way too many are looking at other factors while ignoring that, and that that was a core selling feature of WoW early on.

IMHO, grouping should have been a core part of leveling if they wanted things to work this way. (I'd go so far as to say if this is how they wanted it, then you flat out shouldn't even be able to realistically hit the level cap without grouping up. This is sort of how MMO's were in the pre-WoW world, too) When you design the largest single part of your game that way, then design the post-game content in an entirely opposite way, then focus almost all of your post launch development ON that, what do you expect to happen :/ I think that one core element is what lead to all sorts of design decisions because the game attracted a gigantic amount of people that probably wouldn't have played MMOs otherwise (and probably a lot of people here would think they probably shouldn't be playing MMOs at all, which isn't for me to say!), which let a certain mindset fester and cause all these other things to change and happen (Especially when retention started really becoming a thing that mattered in Cata). I think this also is what caused the theme park MMO to become the standard (and, in some ways, I think with it, WoW existing as the king of the genre, killed the core essence of the traditional MMO genre, probably forever, until we get some sort of major technological and design shifts to happen or something)

[scarletanh]

You actually could if you have more than single digit IQ, but lets be honest, its hard to find a guy with one in LFR.

This's what I find funny, people in LFR cuz they dont know the fight, its made for introductory to the raid, it's for the casual, so they get in, they dont know mech, plz teach them, it's the whole fking point of LFR, to teach new people. And no, no LFR I've been into has people that literally have no brain cell to make some basic movements, and even if they dont, after I tell them briefly what to do, they understand. You would be suprised how people got smarted compared to 15 years ago even though they are casual.

[Advent]

But that's the point of raiding though, you're not simply doing it alone and therefore depend on the success of others as well as them depending on you. They don't want to weed people out when they're recruiting; they want to have the best chance of success and ideally want to be sure that the player bringing the class actually knows how to play that class at least well enough to play optimally.

They have no other way to otherwise verify competency so they have to use other measurable stats.

Think of it this way: Instead of raids, there's a 5-man dungeon boss that will wipe our entire group if a tank doesn't hit his mitigation skill or doesn't move out of fire. If I were a were a warrior, asked to tank in intellect gear with a 2-handed weapon and never moved out of fire, would you run with me? Or would you overlook me for someone who knew what they were doing?

If they begrudgingly raided but never would've otherwise, then wouldn't raiding not be for them?

I know raiding isn't for me. In fact, when I wasn't raiding back in Cataclysm there was nothing else to do but raid. Raiding is/was essentially the only progression-oriented content in the game. That content has a fairly long shelf life, months, even. Dungeons and quest content lasts days, at most. You ran out of content far faster than anyone who was raiding, which often left the game in a sort of "Raid or Die" progression path. These days there are games/activities that respect people's time better than raids do, so from one point of view, "Why spend all this time preparing to do what is basically work I'm not getting paid for when I can play either part of the game that doesn't require it, or go play another game?"

You can't look at it like that though. Or rather, if you view it all as a job, see it this way:

For whatever job you go for, you must display the ability to do the job (unless it's unskilled labor). Very few people can walk into that high-paying executive position without knowing what they're doing or having experience. A CEO must have the leadership skills to run a business and manage a team capable of making money a.k.a. "killing bosses for loot", much like a raid leader must manage a team to kill bosses for loot a.k.a. "make money".

If you were said CEO, would you hire Joe Schmo for your Director or VP position with no qualifications or anything to prove that he is competent enough to fill that role? If you're saying "No", why would anyone expect a raid leader to do the same?

Basketball(Raiding) is fun as well, but if your team is playing to win a tournament, would you put Timmy on your team who knows how to dribble and shoot 3-pointers and has videos of his skills or would you go for Billy over there who you have to instruct every step of the way on how to play mid-game to the detriment of yourself and your other team players simply because he wants to play ball (Raid)? If a quarter (raid night) lasts 3 minutes, would you think it was a valuable use of your time (and the time of the rest of your squad) having to take 1-2 30 second breaks to explain to that one person how to beat the other teams(bosses)? Especially if your team already has multiple tournament wins under their belt?

It's why I believe a lot of LFR players are anti-social/selfish/egotistical (Not saying you are any of these, just using the logic behind the post). They'd rather not spend time practicing and training and making themselves seem like a valuable free agent, but feel that because they can pick up a ball or watched a few games on ESPN they should be in the NBA playing on the same team as LeBron.

Now, you can easily prove the naysayers wrong by starting your own team and proving they can win tournaments too, but then you'd understand from a raid leader or team's perspective of why people must be scrutinized.

LFR is the equivalent to pick-up matches on a playground court: Sure, you can play the same game as those NBA players, but you aren't going to earn what those players make without putting yourself out there to be scouted.

I don't disagree that vetting is necessary, and I don't think just any Joe Schmoe should be just allowed into raiding or a high paying position. But when a better alternative for those people exists that allows them to experience it at their own skill level without having to inconvenience people that don't want them around, I don't see an issue. Again, the people who would do LFR probably aren't particularly interested in sacrificing specific days of their week, every week, to play with people who will throw them away the moment someone better comes along. (This happened to me on a few occasions, in fact.) Raiding guilds have, imo, done a great job at operating like the workplace for a very long time. Whether or not that's a good thing is up to the individual, but I cannot deny that having a sort of job security (AKA LFR and other activities like it) probably keeps less players from feeling disillusioned by the semi-corporate world of WoW raiding.

Example:

I absolutely suck at Final Fantasy 14. I couldn't get into a savage raid even if I spent the next year practicing. I just don't have that in me anymore. If normal (Basically their version of LFR) didn't exist I'd never see it, and a part of the game would be forever out of my reach. Parts of the game like that tend to be fine for people who are good at it, but then developers have to look at the resources they're putting into those activities and ask themselves, "Are we offering enough of that content to the greatest amount of people based on the level of work and time we put into it?" I do believe at one point they were forced to do so, and found themselves wanting. Hence, LFR.

I've never personally filled out an app to be in a guild and probably never would.

I never will again, that's for sure.

I don't think it often results in a toxic environment that pushes the average player to LFR.

I wasn't trying to imply that guilds become toxic, but rather that organized raiding essentially being, for many, a second job probably turns people off to it. Because Blizzard seemed to want to funnel everyone into raiding instead of making less stressful and strict content with its own parallel progression path, they likely (like myself) felt like it was their only choice.

I would rather tend to think the existence and ease of access to LFR is what pushes and keeps the average player there.

I'm not sure that's entirely untrue, but I also don't think the average player is very interested in being tied to a schedule, feeling the pressure of performing better and better or lose their spot, or apply to a job for a video game. The reason I call it a job is because of the numerous parallels to job application requirements on guild apps. Things like needing references, prior work history and relevant experience. I don't knock them for wanting these things because I understand why, but I can't deny that it's likely quite a turn off for some individuals. One that possibly keeps people from even wanting to try. It's often not worth it, not even for the social dynamics, because, in my case you're only "friends" with those people insofar as how much you can give them. Otherwise you're expendable. Kind of like when you're at work.


I don't have any friends who play WoW. I never did (Started in 2007). Which meant most of my time was spent playing solo, even when raiding I noticed that people in the guilds were never too keen on fostering an inclusive and friendly atmosphere. It was always about what you can do for them, how quickly and how well. It's like a business exchange. For all the talk of some individuals in many forums about how the older game created communities, I never once saw or experienced it. Even while raiding. As far as I know it was a unicorn, a meadow of flowers and rainbows where sugary sweets grew out of the ground.

[kaminaris]

After laughing my ass off reading bout 30-ish pages, I can sum up some of the main point anti-LFR people made:
- Giving gear for doing nothing, gear loot can be warforged/titanforged and make your hard-earned heroic/mythic loot not viable
-> Big fact, you cant doing nothing in LFR and expect the boss to die. Also, gear loot is ilvl 400, when mythic is 445. You can use your whole life luck to get titanforged, and it's not better than mythic based, and let's see, azerite cant get titanforged, neck is fixed, so you can pray some Blizz dev got drunk and give you 10 titanforged pieces in order for the argument to be valid
- LFR can see the content that as they said "supposed to be reward for raiding"
-> Boss mechanic in LFR is merely a torn down version of actually mech, so they are not seeing your challenging experience of other difficulties. If your "content" is not that and you mean the story, it's 2019, internet has youtube and forum where you can see all that story without even playing the game.
So year, what LFR gives is baseline item loot, story content which you could see on youtube without playing the game and an advanced dummy target. So you are not missing anything if people doing LFR and you doing other difficulties. It doesnt deduct any of your incentive for doing higher difficulties.

- Third point, LFR affects raiding community, guild cant recruit ppl, bla bla..
-> people who do LFR are casual and not doing actual raid anytime soon, and they dont expect themselves to raid from the very first start either. Those who do want to progress further will find themselves a guild and move on. I dont see how this affect current guild doing raid.
- LFR make people dumb, not knowing how to play.
-> Again, they ARE NOT doing raid further, why would they need to know how to min max, lining cooldown and other stuff that's for more serious raid? And dont use the excuse of that's not how the game should be played, IT'S THEIR FKING GAME TIME, THEY PLAY HOW THEY WANT, if you see people being dumb because of LFR, then give some pointers to them, people are not 15 years ago who dont know how to move without mouse clicking.
- LFR make people lazy
-> This might be the most comment I see, those who do LFR dont have time to do proper raid, or they cant for other reason, just assuming they are lazy is your ignorance. And if they are indeed lazy, dont want to do proper raid, then so what? Then dont get the incentive of higher difficulties, they get the baseline of what they should have for paying 15$/m, what's wrong with that?

All and all, that's some major point I can gather, there're other comment but some are just too stupid I dont want to put in here. Anyway, cheers lad!

That pretty much sums up the thread.

The only reason I can think is elitism and jealousy because nobody with their right mind would blame LFR for people behavior.

[monkaW]

This's what I find funny, people in LFR cuz they dont know the fight

People is in LFR because they're trash, otherwise Normal would take 1/4 of the time it takes to complete LFR.

Why else would you waste 6 hours queue time to be put in the same place with LFR heroes other than begging to get carried by Determination stacks.

[scarletanh]

People is in LFR because they're trash, otherwise Normal would take 1/4 of the time it takes to complete LFR.

Why else would you waste 6 hours queue time to be put in the same place with LFR heroes other than begging to get carried by Determination stacks.

By trash you mean people who dont know the fight? Then yea, that's exactly why LFR exists, no? For them to try the fight without knowing anything beforehand. Those people cant get in normal raid cuz they dont know the fight, so they start from LFR, is there anything wrong with that, or you prefer them getting in normal and get kick after 1 wipe cause they dont know anything? Even though I'm doing mythic raid right now, I start just like that, LFR -> learn the grasp of the fight -> get 400 ilvl from LFR -> get in normal, learn more, and so on...

Just because you know how to do the fight doesnt mean everyone know it, or else the raid doesnt have to be divided into different difficulties

[Lex Icon]

compromise. remove lfr, spend 80% less resources on raids and funnel that into compelling gameplay for non raiders(who would probably be happy to be offered something other than lfr anyway). sound good?

[Orby]

I have no issue with the LFR system in the sense of it helping you look for a group, it's better than spamming chat. But the idea of having it transport you to the dungeon I am not a fan of.