Why flying being gated behind rep grind makes no sense

[RemasteredClassic]

The main crux of the matter is not that Blizzard can't make profits. No one thinks they shouldn't make money. However, it's the manner in which that money is made, and how it's reflected in the game design, that's the point of contention.

Certainly, on paper, squeezing your players and exploiting them for as much money as possible is a very profitable method. But it comes at the cost of your long-term reputation, community good will, and customer loyalty. Maybe Blizzard doesn't care about those things anymore. It certainly seems that way with their clearly stated intent to focus on mobile games and the asia market.

But people need to recognize that this is the sort of driving force that creates side-effects like locking popular features of the game behind excessive time-gating like we see with Pathfinder part 2. And that it's not being done for any legitimate game-design reasons, nor with the the intent of improving the player experience.

You had it 110% accurate when you said "It's all about money". I just wish Blizzard would realize that delivering a better product, and actually treating their players with respect, would make them just as much. We've seen this in other titles. The Witcher 3 comes to mind. The most recent God of War game is another example. God help me...even Borderlands 3 is doing a better job of respecting the players than Blizzard has done with WoW since WoD.

- - - Updated - - -



The 8 month arbitrary time-lock - that has nothing to do with player efforts or accomplishments - is not a grind, though.

Certainly, there would be some people who would complain regardless of the situation, but without the delay on flying, I highly suspect almost no one would seriously be criticizing the Pathfinder system(I would, but on completely different grounds than "it takes too long to grind").

You nailed it. It really boils down to Blizzard out right disrespecting the players. Blizzard management does not even shy away from openly doing so. Voice acting department manager openly disrespected the players live during last year's Blizzcon while introducing the different voice actors and actresses of Overwatch.

[DSRilk]

Voice acting department manager openly disrespected the players live during last year's Blizzcon while introducing the different voice actors and actresses of Overwatch.

To what incident are you referring?

[unbound]

Who thought of this anyway? What's wrong with simply just not giving flying to anyone until a certain time has passed rather than make people hate your own game. This is beyond ridiculous.

Blizz thought of it because of pushback in WoD forced them to do something to cover for the fact that they were lazy. Seriously.

WoD wasn't supposed to have flying at all. While Blizz claims that this was to improve the game, the reality is that this was done to cut costs. They didn't want to make things specifically for flying, and they didn't even want to finish the zones to account for flying.

But there were so many people complaining that Blizz finally caved to give flying back. However, as mentioned, the zones weren't completed...so they needed something to provide air cover (heh) while they finished the zones. Thus, the pathfinder achievement was born.

And because people bought into the nonsense back then, they've been using the same technique ever since. The pathfinder achievement being released as x.3 lets them put less effort into each expansion and puts the finishing effort on the maintenance team.

Mystery solved.

[MasterOfNone]

It’s a business decision. Blizzard’s analysis has most likely shown that time-gating flying will result in more subscription dollars. It’s all about money.

to a degree, it worked. with classic and the obv burnout of the game however, even an idiot coulda told you that you can only do the carrot dangle for so long before people get tired of the b/s. log on to retail if you havent in a few weeks. it is a frickin tomb. no one around anywhere. they took the super time gate philosophy and injected that b/s into several othre facets of the game. the players are speaking, blizzard isnt listening.

- - - Updated - - -

yea, but no. It's actually one of few things in this expansion that most people, who opted for it, had fun with.

and those "most people" equate to what arguable percentage of player base? so many that blizzard had to tip the libra in favor of the alliance? i dont think your point is valid mate.

[CrawlFromThePit]

At this point it's not my fault if you can't follow the argument.



I have acknowledged that you have an argument regarding certain fundamental problems with the game - but pointed out that it's beyond the scope of this discussion. But you continue to fail to construct a valid argument to support your initial assertion that "flying is cancer".



Lol. I deconstructed your argument and explained exactly why you're wrong. You still haven't constructed an argument that addresses what I said, you're just repeating the same assertion.



Yes, there is absolutely a problem there. I am not refuting that. But it's not a problem with flying. Not even in the slightest.

It's a problem with WPvP, a true cancer to this game, which Blizzard feel is so fundamental to this game that they need to bribe people to do it, and even tried to build an entire expansion around - to disastrous effect. But that's another topic for another discussion.

Taking my arguments that include technical aspects of game and level design, mathematical proof and very accurate examples and using your opinion to disagree with them is not deconstructing. To be honest, it doesn't even have value, just like your previous arguments that you claim have substance, yet have none.

This discussion is going nowhere if you don't want to learn, I'm just pointing out reality, not talking about my opinion.

[ornichi]

and those "most people" equate to what arguable percentage of player base? so many that blizzard had to tip the libra in favor of the alliance? i dont think your point is valid mate.

The fact that many people have moved to one faction because 90% of raiding scene is represented on Horde side doesn't invalidate my point. Obviously my perception is subjective and based on my own in-game experience, but hey, as long as I am having fun with those 40-50 random people on a daily basis the system works for us? Isn't that how it is supposed to function?

[Delano]

You're right OP, it makes more sense to remove it entirely.

[united]

The requirements were created purely out of spite.

- - - Updated - - -

I still dont have flying as I need 11k rep for mechagon and I absolutely detest the place gnomes everywhere i just hate everything about mechagon and tbh I dont think ill get flying because i really don't like going there.

It took me almost 3 months to unlock flying (part 2 pathfinder) because I couldn’t stand Nazjatar. It’s hands down the worst zone in the entire game if you can’t fly.

[bloodykiller86]

The guy pretty much said he is a casual.

You do mythics and raids and world quests. Maybe you are a no lifer, like he said.

Anyway. Im casual and i fly for a long time already.

I guess he is just burned out of the game and flying wont change that.

Its about the mind set. If one is bored

im not a no lifer at all. i was super late in getting flying and didnt even get revered with reps until 8.2 as i was taking breaks here and there with work. only recently am i playing way more due to joining a great guild but even then im not no lifing it like i used to back in my highschool years lol

[ONCHEhap]

Would have been better if flying was never introduced tbh

But now it's too late to remove it,because while everyone wants things to get better,no one wants to lose their cool toys in the process.So gating it behind the pathfinder achievements is the next best thing.
Pathfinder is the chemotherapy to the tumorous growth that is flying,but a lot of people will disagree with it because they prefer their short term enjoyment over long term enjoyment,even if they'll then cry about how the latter is diminished

[Greengrim]

Stopping you from playing the game?
What nonsense is this?
How about play the game?

After more than 400 days played in this game till wotlk. I play "casually" 1 to 3 hours for 5 days of the week for less than 6 months per expansion.
I got flying in all expansions. Maximizing any kind of "power" is not in my priority list and I enjoy a lot when I do play.
The RP side of the game only got better. Story much better presented.
Quality of the zones and questing is much more fun comparing to 15 years ago... Etc

The concept of maxing out everything to start having fun of the game, is agaisnt the whole concept of an rpg game.

I think many of you folks are playing the wrong genre.

Honestly to say, I personally don't give a flying fuck what you enjoy or what are/were your priorities in each exapansion. I just said that the fly gating (among a dozen others) is the reason I quit this shit. Dunno why you see this as "nonsense" but then again, I don't care.

[MasterOfNone]

The fact that many people have moved to one faction because 90% of raiding scene is represented on Horde side doesn't invalidate my point. Obviously my perception is subjective and based on my own in-game experience, but hey, as long as I am having fun with those 40-50 random people on a daily basis the system works for us? Isn't that how it is supposed to function?

your point was to say that wpvp works. it obvs doesnt. sure many people moved, but you dont know exactly why. the idea is to make it fun for the majority and not use flying as the scape goat to tout wpvp that is just shit and unbalanced by faction and many other factors anyway.

[Quintalos]

Same reason why Allied Races are timegated; to improve their CCU and show shareholders that players are actively engaging with every system. Some players like it. Personally, I hate it. It's not an amazing feel to finally unlock flying, more like, I can stop doing the activities I dislike in order to do the few things I enjoy. It's a problem now that Blizzard has increases emphasis on systems working in tandem.

I'd rather buy flying at two levels before the max level and have it unlocked for all characters. Or here's a thought, stop designing the zones to be extra annoying without flying so we'd actually want to fly.

[SirCowdog]

Would have been better if flying was never introduced tbh

What do you base this statement on?

Because if we look at the numbers and stats available to us, as players, flying was introduced and maintained in the two highest population expansions(TBC and WOTLK), and had an attempt to remove it in what's arguably the worst expansion(WoD).

The only basis we have to go on for WoW supposedly being better off without flight are the words of high-up devs like Hazzicostas or Afriasabi, who have proven time and again to have interests and objectives that are not necessarily in-line with the players. Who have a history of trying to TELL players how to play instead of listening to them.

So when you say it would have beem "better" if flying had never been introduced, I have to ask: Better for who?

[ornichi]

your point was to say that wpvp works. it obvs doesnt. sure many people moved, but you dont know exactly why. the idea is to make it fun for the majority and not use flying as the scape goat to tout wpvp that is just shit and unbalanced by faction and many other factors anyway.

different people - different opinions

[OokOok]

So, blizzard doesn't hate flying as people keep saying, Flying wasn't gated except for anything but leveling/gold from TBC>Cata, it wasn't gated behind grinding/crap until WOD and that's because blizzard wanted to hide their "Secret" zone because they couldn't decide what the fuck they wanted to do with the story yet, then they decided to just keep going with it in legion/bfa.

[Sinaa]

It's enough to do 4 emissary world quests a day to get flying. Not saying I agree with the need, but it's not too offensive for a casual player, I don't think.

[draganid]

not flying is miserable. i was unsubscribed for all of bfa until a month ago and having to grind pathfinder long after i leveled was shitty. if i hadnt paid for 6 months upfront i would have probably quit.
i dont mind not flying while leveling, but once i hit max level and am done the leveling nzones, i should be able to fly.
the number 1 thing i miss the most when playing other mmos is flying. its stupid not having it. if you wanna waste time doing trivial shit go play classic

[Raelbo]

Taking my arguments that include technical aspects of game and level design, mathematical proof and very accurate examples and using your opinion to disagree with them is not deconstructing. To be honest, it doesn't even have value, just like your previous arguments that you claim have substance, yet have none.

Dude, as I already said, I was using the Toulmin method of argumentation to assess your argument. It's not my opinion that your argument is lacking. It is objectively lacking because it lacks the basic elements that are required to construct an argument. Hence why I keep focussing on the difference between an assertion and an argument.

We may not agree on matters of opinion. But the simple fact is that, to date, your "argument" to support the notion of "flying is cancer" is close to non-existent. I explained exactly why but clearly you have no interest in logically answering that because, simply put, you can't.

- - - Updated - - -

Would have been better if flying was never introduced tbh

But now it's too late to remove it,because while everyone wants things to get better,no one wants to lose their cool toys in the process.So gating it behind the pathfinder achievements is the next best thing.
Pathfinder is the chemotherapy to the tumorous growth that is flying,but a lot of people will disagree with it because they prefer their short term enjoyment over long term enjoyment,even if they'll then cry about how the latter is diminished

Sigh, yet another one repeating this nonsense. I have already explained in detail why this particular "argument" is utter nonsense. I'd say go back and read my rebuttal, but I suspect you have no interest in doing so when it's so much easier to just keep repeating your tired mantra of "flying is cancer".

And no, it has absolutely nothing to do with long term vs short term enjoyment. Once you've had enough time to properly experience new content from the ground (3 months is sufficient, a year is overkill) the "enjoyment" of wasting time travelling between points of interest has become non-existent.

Blizzard like to blame flying for the fact that people miss out on the "joy" of immersive play because we use flying to bypass it. What they fail to get is that the "joy" from that part of the game doesn't last. It has a very limited shelf life that gets expended as we play the game. For the last 3 expansions, by the time they begrudgingly gave us flying, any potential fun to be had from experiencing the "joy" of ground travel had been bled dry months prior.

- - - Updated - - -

It's enough to do 4 emissary world quests a day to get flying. Not saying I agree with the need, but it's not too offensive for a casual player, I don't think.

The issue here isn't that it's too much work. It's that it adds an unnecessary time gate to enabling a perk that was already 6-9 months overdue. I would argue that the rep requirement of Pathfinder Part II makes sense for enabling flying in Nazjatar and Mechagon. Not for Zandalar and Kul Tiras though. Most players earned Pathfinder Part I half a year back, or even longer.

In the end, what Pathfinder Part II actually achieved was an idiotic outcome from a game design perspective with no winners because as players we had 2 shit choices:

• Rush Nazjatar/Mechagon in order to get the rep asap, essentially ruining the experience
• Take our time and savour the Nazjatar/Mechagon experience, but then feel frustrated by the continued inability to fly in Zandalar/Kul Kiras (especially when seemingly everyone else has flying already)

The whole point of holding back flying is to get players to savour the content from the ground for a while. The way they implemented Pathfinder II achieved the polar opposite.

Personally I opted for the latter. So I did get to experience the zones as they were intended. But that experience was compromised every time I went back to Zandalar or Kul Tiras and saw loads of other players flying around.


Honestly, the way they should have implemented flying would have been to simply separate it for Kul Tiras/Zandalar and Nazjatar and Mechagon. When the reward for grinding Nazjatar for rep is to be able to merely to keep doing the same content with flying, the urgency to complete that requirement becomes significantly less pressing and thus players incentivized to play the game at their own pace rather than out of a sense of compulsion.

[SirCowdog]

Honestly, the way they should have implemented flying would have been to simply separate it for Kul Tiras/Zandalar and Nazjatar and Mechagon. When the reward for grinding Nazjatar for rep is to be able to merely to keep doing the same content with flying, the urgency to complete that requirement becomes significantly less pressing and thus players incentivized to play the game at their own pace rather than out of a sense of compulsion.

I would agree with this, but only with the assumption that Blizzard won't deviate from the ground-centric design.

What they SHOULD be doing is designing zones to use flight from the very beginning. Or, barring that, have flying, once unlocked, provide access to additional content or zones which can only be accessed via flying.

Ideally with a late-expansion content release, instead of two grounded zones which flight shits on completely - like what happened with Nazjatar and Mechagon - we'd have one zone specifically designed to use flying, and one in which flying was disabled.

Thus giving players of both camps the opportunity to FULLY enjoy the content style they prefer, but without completely denying one or the other like with the Pathfinder system.