Why the Shadowlands make me depressed

[Ronin2k]

you'll change your mind soon enough.

I don't follow?

[Lurker1]

Point 1. Blizzard retconned a lot of lore to make them happen
This point has already been beaten to death by other posters but I feel like I have to go over it again. Retconning lore on a grand scale like they did with the Shadowlands cheapens everything that happened in the old continuity. Kil'jaeden is no longer a powerful, ingenious demon lord who created the Scourge. He's just some cheap hack who had his goons steal some artifacts from the Shadowlands and then borrowed Maldraxxus' magic. By extensions the Nathrezim are lame too now since they aren't the masters of necromantic magic and the creators of Frostmourne and the Helm of Domination that we thought they were. And this example is just the tip of the iceberg. I won't be buying WC3: Reforged now because replaying the campaign knowing that Kil'jaeden, Ner'zhul & co were just cheap hacks who borrowed or stole stuff that wasn't theirs won't feel right.

Other lore simply doesn't work in the new continuity. If all the souls have been going to the Maw since (at the very least) Teldrassil and no one escapes from the Maw, how did Delaryn and Sira get raised? It's just a glaring plothole now.

But worst of all, it's hard to care about the lore when Blizzard keeps making shit up on the spot and coming up with new "biggest threat ever" every other year or so and waylaying established characters. Why get invested in the lore of the Shadowlands when it's a given that the Jailer will end up being a mook for some other cosmic threat? Speaking of waylayed characters...

Point 2. Why do the Shadowlands deserve their own expansion in the first place?
People were hyped to go to Argus for at least a decade. It ended up being a couple of barren rocks floating in space and Sargeras' main base of operations was somehow less impressive than Scourge fortresses in Icecrown, who were supposed to be the Legion's proxies. Did you want to see the purple heels of Mac'Aree? Fuck you. Advanced Eredar technology? Fuck you. Grandiose Burning Legion strongholds? Fuck you.

Same goes for Nazjatar. The branch of Naga in the Outland somehow managed to have a more impressive presence in Zangarmarsh than in their own capital on Azeroth. At least the Coilfang facility had 3 dungeons and a raid. Nazjatar was just one small raid surrounded by a barren seafloor and... that's it.

Won't even get started on Ny'alotha. What they did there after a decade of build up is an atrocity. Argus at least got 3 zones. The "great and terrible city of Ny'alotha" ended up being two cramped, instances temples. Which brings me to...

Point 3. Blizzard doesn't care about the integrity of Warcraft's lore
It would have made sense if Argus, Nazjatar and Ny'alotha / Black Empire had gotten their own expansions. They were, after all, very important places. Arguably more important than Pandaria which did end up being a fully-fledged continent.

Unfortunately Blizzard doesn't give a fuck about what makes sense and what doesn't. They listened to a bunch of bogus complaints that people were tired of fel green / underwater zones / tentacles and decided to quickly ax those stories despite them being fundamental, long-running parts of the Warcraft universe. Guess what? Shit storytelling and gameplay makes games unenjoyable, not color palettes. People still play Counterstrike decades later despite it having a relatively boring and same-y color palette.

And even if we assume that a same-y color palette has any bearing on the enjoyability of a game, who's to say Argus, Nazjatar and Ny'alotha couldn't have been colorful and diverse? After all, Blizzard managed to take a barren black / white / grey dimension and turn it into something that resembles and acid trip and based an entire expansion around it. Too bad Argus didn't get the same treatment.

How can you get invested in the lore of a game when all the shots are called by investors and the "boohoo who cares about the lore, give me colorful enemies to slay" crowd rather than the writers? You can't. Speaking of the writers...

Point 4. The current writing team has no respect for the efforts of the OGs like Metzen
The current writing team just jumps on the latest twitter bandwagon and bases the entire story around it. WC3 Sylvanas, Jaina and Tyrande were strong women and Thrall embodied non-toxic masculinity. BfA Sylvanas, Jaina, Tyrande are just caricatures of their WC3 selves. And Anduin is non-toxic to the detriment of common sense.

Point 5. Blizzard just does whatever the fuck they want to
Blizzard wants Dracula's castle in WoW? Blizzard makes Dracula's castle in WoW. Which leads me to believe that the current team is completely unversed in Warcraft's lore if they have to do complete asspulls and retcon existing lore to create something interesting.

Or even worse, they DON'T care about WoW's lore. They just sit down and and come up with whatever generic fantasy trope they want to draw / write a story about on a given day and roll with it. Existing lore be damned. Speaking of genericity...

Point 6. The Shadowlands are completely generic
The Night Fae, the Necrolords, the Kyrians and the Venthyr are just caricatures of the Wild Gods, the Scourge, the Val'kyr and the San'layn respectively. But whereas the latter factions have rich backstories and were introduced into Warcraft in an organic, non-jarring way, the former factions are just asspulls that Blizzard came up with on the spot to fill the Shadowlands with variety. There's nothing new or interesting about the Shadowlands Covenants. They're just regurgitated and less interesting versions of what we already had for years.

Point 7. The Shadowlands are extremely childish
If you're a good man - you go to WoW heaven. If you're a bad man - you got to WoW hell. It's dogmatic, it's simplistic, it's browbeating. There's absolutely zero need to say "oh yeah Kael'thas was a bad man so he's getting tortured by BDSM vampires in hell for eternity". It reads like something a 5 year old child would write to "punish" a bad character he dislikes. Kael'thas already got his punishment and that was the legacy of the Sunstriders being completely destroyed and all but forgotten about. It's a way more fitting punishment for a character's misdeeds than saying "oh yeah he was a bad man so he's going to burn in hell."

But worst of all, Blizzard just can't or refuses to write satisfying story arcs anymore. Everything drags on for years and years and the gets wrapped up in the least satisfying way imaginable. Give us something fun, concise and enjoyable like the Blood Elves' redemption arc in TBC. Not more of Sylvanas' edgy adventures.

The shadowlands has always been in the lore so not sure what the problem is lol!

[Ronin2k]

you'll change your mind soon enough.

I don't follow?

[Velzen]

Point 1. Blizzard retconned a lot of lore to make them happen
This point has already been beaten to death by other posters but I feel like I have to go over it again. Retconning lore on a grand scale like they did with the Shadowlands cheapens everything that happened in the old continuity. Kil'jaeden is no longer a powerful, ingenious demon lord who created the Scourge. He's just some cheap hack who had his goons steal some artifacts from the Shadowlands and then borrowed Maldraxxus' magic. By extensions the Nathrezim are lame too now since they aren't the masters of necromantic magic and the creators of Frostmourne and the Helm of Domination that we thought they were. And this example is just the tip of the iceberg. I won't be buying WC3: Reforged now because replaying the campaign knowing that Kil'jaeden, Ner'zhul & co were just cheap hacks who borrowed or stole stuff that wasn't theirs won't feel right.

Other lore simply doesn't work in the new continuity. If all the souls have been going to the Maw since (at the very least) Teldrassil and no one escapes from the Maw, how did Delaryn and Sira get raised? It's just a glaring plothole now.

But worst of all, it's hard to care about the lore when Blizzard keeps making shit up on the spot and coming up with new "biggest threat ever" every other year or so and waylaying established characters. Why get invested in the lore of the Shadowlands when it's a given that the Jailer will end up being a mook for some other cosmic threat? Speaking of waylayed characters...

Point 2. Why do the Shadowlands deserve their own expansion in the first place?
People were hyped to go to Argus for at least a decade. It ended up being a couple of barren rocks floating in space and Sargeras' main base of operations was somehow less impressive than Scourge fortresses in Icecrown, who were supposed to be the Legion's proxies. Did you want to see the purple heels of Mac'Aree? Fuck you. Advanced Eredar technology? Fuck you. Grandiose Burning Legion strongholds? Fuck you.

Same goes for Nazjatar. The branch of Naga in the Outland somehow managed to have a more impressive presence in Zangarmarsh than in their own capital on Azeroth. At least the Coilfang facility had 3 dungeons and a raid. Nazjatar was just one small raid surrounded by a barren seafloor and... that's it.

Won't even get started on Ny'alotha. What they did there after a decade of build up is an atrocity. Argus at least got 3 zones. The "great and terrible city of Ny'alotha" ended up being two cramped, instances temples. Which brings me to...

Point 3. Blizzard doesn't care about the integrity of Warcraft's lore
It would have made sense if Argus, Nazjatar and Ny'alotha / Black Empire had gotten their own expansions. They were, after all, very important places. Arguably more important than Pandaria which did end up being a fully-fledged continent.

Unfortunately Blizzard doesn't give a fuck about what makes sense and what doesn't. They listened to a bunch of bogus complaints that people were tired of fel green / underwater zones / tentacles and decided to quickly ax those stories despite them being fundamental, long-running parts of the Warcraft universe. Guess what? Shit storytelling and gameplay makes games unenjoyable, not color palettes. People still play Counterstrike decades later despite it having a relatively boring and same-y color palette.

And even if we assume that a same-y color palette has any bearing on the enjoyability of a game, who's to say Argus, Nazjatar and Ny'alotha couldn't have been colorful and diverse? After all, Blizzard managed to take a barren black / white / grey dimension and turn it into something that resembles and acid trip and based an entire expansion around it. Too bad Argus didn't get the same treatment.

How can you get invested in the lore of a game when all the shots are called by investors and the "boohoo who cares about the lore, give me colorful enemies to slay" crowd rather than the writers? You can't. Speaking of the writers...

Point 4. The current writing team has no respect for the efforts of the OGs like Metzen
The current writing team just jumps on the latest twitter bandwagon and bases the entire story around it. WC3 Sylvanas, Jaina and Tyrande were strong women and Thrall embodied non-toxic masculinity. BfA Sylvanas, Jaina, Tyrande are just caricatures of their WC3 selves. And Anduin is non-toxic to the detriment of common sense.

Point 5. Blizzard just does whatever the fuck they want to
Blizzard wants Dracula's castle in WoW? Blizzard makes Dracula's castle in WoW. Which leads me to believe that the current team is completely unversed in Warcraft's lore if they have to do complete asspulls and retcon existing lore to create something interesting.

Or even worse, they DON'T care about WoW's lore. They just sit down and and come up with whatever generic fantasy trope they want to draw / write a story about on a given day and roll with it. Existing lore be damned. Speaking of genericity...

Point 6. The Shadowlands are completely generic
The Night Fae, the Necrolords, the Kyrians and the Venthyr are just caricatures of the Wild Gods, the Scourge, the Val'kyr and the San'layn respectively. But whereas the latter factions have rich backstories and were introduced into Warcraft in an organic, non-jarring way, the former factions are just asspulls that Blizzard came up with on the spot to fill the Shadowlands with variety. There's nothing new or interesting about the Shadowlands Covenants. They're just regurgitated and less interesting versions of what we already had for years.

Point 7. The Shadowlands are extremely childish
If you're a good man - you go to WoW heaven. If you're a bad man - you got to WoW hell. It's dogmatic, it's simplistic, it's browbeating. There's absolutely zero need to say "oh yeah Kael'thas was a bad man so he's getting tortured by BDSM vampires in hell for eternity". It reads like something a 5 year old child would write to "punish" a bad character he dislikes. Kael'thas already got his punishment and that was the legacy of the Sunstriders being completely destroyed and all but forgotten about. It's a way more fitting punishment for a character's misdeeds than saying "oh yeah he was a bad man so he's going to burn in hell."

But worst of all, Blizzard just can't or refuses to write satisfying story arcs anymore. Everything drags on for years and years and the gets wrapped up in the least satisfying way imaginable. Give us something fun, concise and enjoyable like the Blood Elves' redemption arc in TBC. Not more of Sylvanas' edgy adventures.

If the gameplay is great I don't really care.
I like the theme of the expansion.

[Nerovar]

I feel like the current writing team has some fundamental misunderstandings about the lore. They don't get the feel of the Warcraft universe right at all. I can't really blame them for that because the Warcraft lore became less defined over the years, its themes, characters and places remaining largely unused in favour of expanding it into all sorts of different directions instead of developing and evolving what already existed. There's a sort of purity you can find in WC3's narrative (and Classic to some extent) that has been lost over the years and a sort of mystery that has been dispelled.

As it stands today, they'd rather defile the history of the WC universe and older existing lore with retcons only to promote something new instead of going back and thinking about made Warcraft great to begin with. To me it's like the scene from Star Wars Episode 8 in which Luke just throws away his (father's) old lightsaber. It's exemplified in Sylvanas ripping apart the Helm of Domination, symbolically destroying the story of TFT in the process.

I also simply can't imagine them telling good stories again in this universe they've created. They've fucked up all of its rules, all of its history and mythology, all of its characters. There's really not much left to tell.

That being said, I totally understand your sentiment.

[Lurker1]

Shadowlands shown us one thing... that Blizzard can, and will, change everything they want as long as it sells and keeps the game alive. Nothing is sacred and consistent anymore.

Almost like it's a MMOrpg or something they can add new lore or use old lore as they please.its there own game for peepsakes man!

[keelr]

Point 4. The current writing team has no respect for the efforts of the OGs like Metzen
The current writing team just jumps on the latest twitter bandwagon and bases the entire story around it. WC3 Sylvanas, Jaina and Tyrande were strong women and Thrall embodied non-toxic masculinity. BfA Sylvanas, Jaina, Tyrande are just caricatures of their WC3 selves. And Anduin is non-toxic to the detriment of common sense.

While i disagree with most of what you said, i couldnt agree more with this. I think the current writing team lacks the ability to build up characters and all they do is just harvesting the epicness of the characters that are already there. Not just making them look stupid after a time, but making the whole atmosphere bad.

Wish we could get some new lore, some fresh lore like Pandaria or Cataclysm.

[Nerovar]

Almost like it's a MMOrpg or something they can add new lore or use old lore as they please.its there own game for peepsakes man!

What a big brain comment. Of course they can. It's their intellectual property. They have the right to use and abuse it as they see fit. That doesn't mean it's a good decision for the lore of the universe in the long run.

[sam86]

you forgot about the Chronicles.

most canon thing you can find.

no retconing anymore, fam.

are u sarcastic or serious? because they did sh8t on it
for f8ck sake i pre-ordered it and i never regretted spending money on my life that much as i did, oh it was from titan FUCKING pov
i don't want a refund, i want to burn every copy of it i find, FUCK YOU blizzard for that seriously
(no didn't burn mine yet i admit, also i really have no idea what to do with it)

The point is that Archimonde and Kil'jaeden never saw those broken nor bothered to send any troops to Mac'aree at all, so it would have been fairly easy to justify an expansion of us going to Argus and rallying the various free peoples of the world against the Legion. And again you also can't say "it would be boring because it is just one massive green planet" because, again, see Mac'aree. That's anything but a Fel-blighted wasteland. The only problem would be the Legion fatigue, because two expansions back to back of fighting demons would be boring, but that's no different from two expansions kickstarted by Sylvanas.

wod was 90% orcs and 10% demons, which exp back to back u refer to ?

[DemonHunter18]

are u sarcastic or serious? because they did sh8t on it
for f8ck sake i pre-ordered it and i never regretted spending money on my life that much as i did, oh it was from titan FUCKING pov
i don't want a refund, i want to burn every copy of it i find, FUCK YOU blizzard for that seriously
(no didn't burn mine yet i admit, also i really have no idea what to do with it)

sarcastic haha

I made the thread for it after all.

https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...retcon-anymore

[sam86]

While i disagree with most of what you said, i couldnt agree more with this. I think the current writing team lacks the ability to build up characters and all they do is just harvesting the epicness of the characters that are already there. Not just making them look stupid after a time, but making the whole atmosphere bad.

Wish we could get some new lore, some fresh lore like Pandaria or Cataclysm.

there are many interesting wow-only characters, also i admit most of them are minors
Varok used to be very good, but now i think less ppl like him, i still do but i still don't like how he died that easy (also ironic, he did put more fight than the LK himself heh)

- - - Updated - - -

The shadowlands has always been in the lore so not sure what the problem is lol!

do the shadow priest artifact quest and u'll know what is shadowlands
i think we have more quests there but this quest is very major in wow, or at least it should be
shadowlands are far minor in comparison to Nazhjatar, Nya'lotha, or Argus, he is right, we can build an entire expansion on Naga civilization or Argus, what we got was far worse treatment than they deserve

[Hubbl3]

Point 5. Blizzard just does whatever the fuck they want to
Blizzard wants Dracula's castle in WoW? Blizzard makes Dracula's castle in WoW. Which leads me to believe that the current team is completely unversed in Warcraft's lore if they have to do complete asspulls and retcon existing lore to create something interesting.

That's also my biggest concern with WoW's lore at the point. I have the feeling that there are no rules, at all. Every expansion adds another layer upon another layer, another pocket dimension, another super ancient and super important race/entity/whatever. And of course it's up to us to fix everything. Because we are the saviors of the Multiverse. It gets confusing. What is true today may not be true tomorrow.

Other fictional universes manage this way better.

[DemonHunter18]

there are many interesting wow-only characters, also i admit most of them are minors
Varok used to be very good, but now i think less ppl like him, i still do but i still don't like how he died that easy (also ironic, he did put more fight than the LK himself heh)

I can't really find any interesting character tbh. they all died out.

most characters are written like they don't know what to do with them.

like, compare Illidan from WC3 to TBC Illidan. compare TBC Illdan to WotA trilogy Illidan.

compare Legion Illidan to all those above and you see how different they are.

Kael and Vashj got even worst treatment.

Archimonde and Kil'jaden went from being badass demonlords to being punk bi***, not to mention Kil'jaeden is suddenly sorry for his own planet.

[Wilfire]

There's a sort of purity you can find in WC3's narrative (and Classic to some extent) that has been lost over the years and a sort of mystery that has been dispelled.

For all their faults, TBC-WotLK era still felt distinctly "Warcraft-y" to me. Cataclysm was an early warning sign for me when they rampaged through the Elemental Planes and wrecked the Dragonflights in favor of pushing their "age of mortals" narrative. With MoP and later Legion and BfA came heavy browbeating moral lessons that were very uncharacteristic of early Warcraft.

If I had to describe the "Warcraft-y" feeling in one word, it would be "badass". Sure, WC2 Horde, WC3 Burning Legion and the Scourge were completely unrepentant evil bastards but they were still beloved characters because they were badass. Arthas' invasion of Quel'Thalas didn't feel "wrong" like the War of Thornes. It felt badass. Thrall didn't lead the orcs on an exodus to Kalimdor because he felt guilty about the Old Horde's actions. He wanted to build a new life for the Horde and he was more than happy to crush some humans skulls along the way.

Ever since MoP it feels like there's a lot of mopey, whiny or otherwise edgy characters. Even Sargeras was retconned to be driven by fear rather than badassery. All of this, of course, came to a head in BfA with Saurfang's incessant whining about honor.

[LeftyDPS]

This whole thing that KJ and co creating the armour and frostmourne being retconned is a fallacy.

Page 17, chronicles vol 3

"The dreadlords bound his disembodied spirit to a specially crafted set of armour and a mighty runeblade called Frostmourne"

As such there is nothing to say KJ didn't make a bargain with the jailor for this armour to be crafted and the dreadlords, being masters of necromancy as they are, weren't the ones to assist in the creation.

[Villager720]

I'm not wild about anything I've seen thus far, but I mean... it's not time traveling*, steampunk orcs.
Glass half full guys!

*alternate, irrelevant dimension that doesn't even have the deep implications of time traveling*

[Tirilka]

Point 6. The Shadowlands are completely generic
The Night Fae, the Necrolords, the Kyrians and the Venthyr are just caricatures of the Wild Gods, the Scourge, the Val'kyr and the San'layn respectively. But whereas the latter factions have rich backstories and were introduced into Warcraft in an organic, non-jarring way, the former factions are just asspulls that Blizzard came up with on the spot to fill the Shadowlands with variety. There's nothing new or interesting about the Shadowlands Covenants. They're just regurgitated and less interesting versions of what we already had for years.

This is one of the most unappealing thing to me in Shadowblands. These new factions feel so unWarcraft. Like something out of a random asian MMO. No connecton to the warcraft at best, retconning old and loved lore at worst. Instead of asking themselves "Would it fit in WoW", it feels like developers just went "haha lets make a cute owl race". Or these stupid generic fairy tale satyrs, when we already have unique demonic satyrs.

[Shakana]

Well structured thread telling us what you didn't like and i respect, even tho i don't agree with some things. The things i agree being mostly the poorly places we went on a patch, such as Nazjatar and Nyalotha

[Eazy]

Eh, this was unexplored territory. Literally and figuratively. So they could do whatever they wanted and make it work.

I meant the Helm of Domination or the concept of Frostmourne and the mentioned helm being forged in the Shadowlands(by Kil'jaeden somehow?) and the idea of chronicles being written from the titans perspective.

[Rendark]

Warcrafts lore used to be good. Maybe not the best thing ever but it was fun. Ever since they made it into a mmo the story has been going down hill. The "there must always be a lich king" thing was so dumb but the lore really fell off at WoD. Now the story of the game is so broken there is no fix it.