Opinion on Chronicle now that we see it in a different light

[Maljinwo]

Chronicles was marketed as a sort of knowledge base of the Warcraft Universe.
Them saying that this is now "just the titans recounting of stuff that happened" devalues the books immensely as everything in the book is now subjective and not, as the book's own description states:

This definitive tome of Warcraft history reveals untold stories about the birth of the cosmos, the rise of ancient empires, and the forces that shaped the world of Azeroth and its people.

Also, Matt Burns explained this back in 2015: https://twitter.com/Burnzerker/statu...15064769998849
The authors are retconning themselves

[Aucald]

Chronicles was marketed as a sort of knowledge base of the Warcraft Universe.
Them saying that this is now "just the titans recounting of stuff that happened" devalues the books immensely as everything in the book is now subjective and not, as the book's own description states:

Also, Matt Burns explained this back in 2015: https://twitter.com/Burnzerker/statu...15064769998849
The authors are retconning themselves

I don't think the reclassification of "Chronicle" really changes any of that. It's still definitive, and it still serves its role as a reference source-book that is pretty much the first official timeline of the Warcraft universe written from the perspective of beings who practically transcend Time itself within said universe. I'll agree that in some ways it was marketed improperly in retrospect, that's true enough - but being from "the perspective of the Titans" still posits the book as an accounting of the beings who quite literally shaped the worlds and much of the fictional universe we're talking about. That's about as close as one gets to an "omniscient narrator" beyond a completely third-party Doylist account of the universe itself.

I doubt anyone is going look at an account from the "Chronicle" series and say "oh, that's just what the Titans thought, and what do they know?" They pretty much knew everything in the physical universe - Aman'thul was cognizant of the entirety of Time itself. The reclassification is more likely due to the fact that WoW is now exploring spaces beyond the physical universe accounted for in "Chronicle," meaning that there is and going to be canon outside its scope, things that the Titans can't speak of because it is beyond the universe itself.

[Maljinwo]

I don't think the reclassification of "Chronicle" really changes any of that. It's still definitive, and it still serves its role as a reference source-book that is pretty much the first official timeline of the Warcraft universe written from the perspective of beings who practically transcend Time itself within said universe.

We'll have to agree to disagree in this topic.
To me, Chronicles can now be retconned in whatever ways Blizzard sees fit as everything the books said is subjective now.

[Combatbutler]

It just makes it easier for them to write even more inconsistent, as they already do. As for the chronicle it is basically like any other novel now, meaning it can and will be retconed at a moments notice, something they wanted to avoid with the introduction of these very books, so blizz sticking to its usual motto, consistency as long as it means inconsistency.

[Wilian]

Convenient way to shrug off the eternal loop of retcons

[How dare you]

Do you like that the Titans wrote chronicle? How does this change what you think about the book?

Im curious to see what you guys think. Im happy to know the titans wrote chronicle, it was always sketch to me


EDIT: I see alot of people adding no, and ill explain why I think yes

Alot of people dont like that it was sold as a book that knew everything, but I have some counter arguments - first off, why would blizzard sell a book that knew everything about the wc lore in the past. They want to keep some things surprising for us. Secondly, if you read closely you could always tell chronicle was not 100% true. There was always some bias and stuff the Titans left out. The fact that chronicle cant tell you where the shadowlands came from, and never mentions Argus is proof enough that chronicle was never omnipotent

I haven't read the books, and I'm not gonna pay that much money just to see them retcon things.

[Lodreh]

Everything in life carries a bias. It changes nothing. Chronicle gives history for something we could only speculate on before. In real life we believe we know ancient Egyptian culture and we have volumes of text on the subject... but we do not know. At a certain point you have to take someone else's word or interpretation of events as fact. Chronicle is no different.

[Mixxy]

I agree, but whats more important to me is whats in the book. Sure they screwed some people over, but the main idea is whats in the book

That's... that's bloody absurd.

It was literally sold as a definitive, non-biased history of the universe and the lore. The fact that, AFTER you bought it, it became clear that it wasn't what it was being sold as doesn't make it okay.

If you bought a fantasy book, that was being advertised as a fantasy book... opened the cover, and found out that the pages were all just fucking cupcake recipes, you wouldn't go "Well it's obviously a cookbook so this is fine."
No, you'd be mad that you paid money for product that was sold to you as one thing, but then turned out to be something completely different only AFTER you bought it.

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Chronicles was marketed as a sort of knowledge base of the Warcraft Universe.
Them saying that this is now "just the titans recounting of stuff that happened" devalues the books immensely as everything in the book is now subjective and not, as the book's own description states:



Also, Matt Burns explained this back in 2015: https://twitter.com/Burnzerker/statu...15064769998849
The authors are retconning themselves

Lol even one of the thing's own writers was insisting that it wasn't written in-character.

The people saying "Well I had no reason to believe it was official definitive cannon!" obviously weren't paying any attention.

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The reclassification is more likely due to the fact that WoW is now exploring spaces beyond the physical universe accounted for in "Chronicle," meaning that there is and going to be canon outside its scope, things that the Titans can't speak of because it is beyond the universe itself.

All Blizzard needed to do was not write about the Shadowlands in the Chronicles.

The Chronicles didn't need to have ALL of the universe's lore. All it needed to do - all it was advertised to do - was give a definitive, non-biased, canon explanation for the things it DID contain.

To suddenly turn around and say that they were written by a fallible, in-universe force (and the Titans very much are fallible. Otherwise the whole Burning Legion thing wouldn't have happened) inherently and drastically devalues the entire foundation of what the Chronicles are, and what people paid good money for.

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Everything in life carries a bias. It changes nothing. Chronicle gives history for something we could only speculate on before. In real life we believe we know ancient Egyptian culture and we have volumes of text on the subject... but we do not know. At a certain point you have to take someone else's word or interpretation of events as fact. Chronicle is no different.

Warcraft is fiction, mate.

[Aucald]

All Blizzard needed to do was not write about the Shadowlands in the Chronicles.

The Chronicles didn't need to have ALL of the universe's lore. All it needed to do - all it was advertised to do - was give a definitive, non-biased, canon explanation for the things it DID contain.

To suddenly turn around and say that they were written by a fallible, in-universe force (and the Titans very much are fallible. Otherwise the whole Burning Legion thing wouldn't have happened) inherently and drastically devalues the entire foundation of what the Chronicles are, and what people paid good money for.

But the Shadowlands aren't written about in "Chronicle," they're mentioned, but neither explored nor detailed historically or otherwise. Neither is the Emerald Dream for that matter, or the Void, or any other realm outside the physical universe.

Whether or not the Titans are fallible is very much open to interpretation, if you ask me. Aman'thul, being cognizant of all Time (the very being who imbued Nozdormu with his ability to foresee the entire timeline including his own demise) would know that Sargeras would become corrupted, that he would destroy the Titans at Nihilam, and that he would ultimately be defeated once more and imprisoned at the Seat of the Pantheon. It wasn't an error on the part of the Titans that led to their predicament, it was Aman'thul following the timeline as dictated even though it meant his own eons-long imprisonment in Antorus.

As I said above, I agree that "Chronicle" was marketed improperly - that's on Blizzard. What I disagree with is this sense that they've become devalued or that people have otherwise been defrauded. They still are what they were purported to be: a definitive chronology of the events of the Warcraft universe, including a prehistory that was never previously known. They're still certifiably canon, and still a reference that can be used as needed.

[Trumpcat]

So, to try again, besides the hysteria going in this thread, what exactly has been retconned from the Chronicles? I have the three of them here.

And also, do folks make a difference between expanding and retconning?

[TheFirstOnes]

But the Shadowlands aren't written about in "Chronicle," they're mentioned, but neither explored nor detailed historically or otherwise. Neither is the Emerald Dream for that matter, or the Void, or any other realm outside the physical universe.

Whether or not the Titans are fallible is very much open to interpretation, if you ask me. Aman'thul, being cognizant of all Time (the very being who imbued Nozdormu with his ability to foresee the entire timeline including his own demise) would know that Sargeras would become corrupted, that he would destroy the Titans at Nihilam, and that he would ultimately be defeated once more and imprisoned at the Seat of the Pantheon. It wasn't an error on the part of the Titans that led to their predicament, it was Aman'thul following the timeline as dictated even though it meant his own eons-long imprisonment in Antorus.

As I said above, I agree that "Chronicle" was marketed improperly - that's on Blizzard. What I disagree with is this sense that they've become devalued or that people have otherwise been defrauded. They still are what they were purported to be: a definitive chronology of the events of the Warcraft universe, including a prehistory that was never previously known. They're still certifiably canon, and still a reference that can be used as needed.

Aman'thul: GUYS! I HAD THE STRANGEST DREAM! So, apparently, our brother leaves us, gets burned alive, kills us, and then, years later, some couple of mortals would randomly pop in and save us from corruption.

The Titans: Nah. That'll never happen.

*Years later*

The Player: Ah, shit. Here we go again...

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So, to try again, besides the hysteria going in this thread, what exactly has been retconned from the Chronicles? I have the three of them here.

And also, do folks make a difference between expanding and retconning?

Nothing's been retconned. People don't understand that the Chronicles being mostly from the POV of the Titans is =/= Them actually writing the damn things.

[Lodreh]

...Warcraft is fiction, mate.

That's just your reality bias talking.

[Mixxy]

But the Shadowlands aren't written about in "Chronicle," they're mentioned, but neither explored nor detailed historically or otherwise. Neither is the Emerald Dream for that matter, or the Void, or any other realm outside the physical universe.

That's what I'm saying though. Blizzard didn't need to make the Chronicle fallible for Shadowlands to work, because there wasn't anything ABOUT Shadowlands in there.

The "Titan perspective" thing only serves to cast doubt over everything written in the Chronicle and open the doors to future retcons, and it didn't even need to happen.

- - - Updated - - -

So, to try again, besides the hysteria going in this thread, what exactly has been retconned from the Chronicles? I have the three of them here.

And also, do folks make a difference between expanding and retconning?

They haven't been retconned. Blizzard came out and said that they now consider the Chronicles to have been written "from a Titan perspective", contrary to all of the marketing and advertising holding the books up as definitive Word of God.

[Nnyco]

It only makes me wonder how many of the titans entries in chronicles are "odyn-ified" and just written in a way that makes titans look better than they actually are.

[DemonHunter18]

I'm lost for words.

but it's funny asf.

[Aucald]

That's what I'm saying though. Blizzard didn't need to make the Chronicle fallible for Shadowlands to work, because there wasn't anything ABOUT Shadowlands in there.

The "Titan perspective" thing only serves to cast doubt over everything written in the Chronicle and open the doors to future retcons, and it didn't even need to happen.

I think it's more likely that some of the figures we will encounter in Shadowlands, such as the Jailer and the Arbiter, are going to be revealed as hugely important cosmological entities in the Warcraft multiverse. As such, these entities would've been written of and known if the "Chronicle" series were completely third-party and Doylist in nature, whereas if it is Watsonian (internally referenced) from the PoV of a being who wouldn't have had access to such knowledge then it's not an issue. The cosmology can be recontextualized without fear of explicit retcon, as it were. The existence of the Jailer and Arbiter entities doesn't change the known cosmology detailed in "Chronicle," but it extends and defines it in new ways.

[Magical Mudcrab]

yea thatll fall on deaf ears around here.

It'll be ignored because it's, frankly, a stupid thing to say. It doesn't add to the discussion, it's just an attempt at hand-waving a problem without engaging with the reasons people are angry.

[Aucald]

Aman'thul: GUYS! I HAD THE STRANGEST DREAM! So, apparently, our brother leaves us, gets burned alive, kills us, and then, years later, some couple of mortals would randomly pop in and save us from corruption.

The Titans: Nah. That'll never happen.

*Years later*

The Player: Ah, shit. Here we go again...

If you think about it, Aman'thul and by extension Nozdormu, must live horrible lives at least relative to the way we understand and live life. They know what they will do, and how they'll die, and have no agency in acting out that fate whatsoever. For someone like Aman'thul it probably didn't even occur to him to fight against his fate or to speak of it - he basically lives his life right off the page of its script, so to speak, performing the actions he knows he must perform to take him to A to B to C in the chronology of his own existence. He doesn't have free will, or any sense of personal agency, he is literally an automaton following instructions to the letter. He may not even think in a manner we can understand.

Nozdormu, at least, is relateable because he was once a being that was limited and could act with relative freedom (being ignorant of the future) - Aman'thul never knew such relative freedom.

[evertonbelmontt]

I personally feel cheated and lost all respect for the lore team.

I'm just glad I'm not one of a few. With enough people outraged by this, they certainly will be more carefull and considerate in the future.

[GreenJesus]

I don't think the reclassification of "Chronicle" really changes any of that. It's still definitive, and it still serves its role as a reference source-book that is pretty much the first official timeline of the Warcraft universe written from the perspective of beings who practically transcend Time itself within said universe. I'll agree that in some ways it was marketed improperly in retrospect, that's true enough - but being from "the perspective of the Titans" still posits the book as an accounting of the beings who quite literally shaped the worlds and much of the fictional universe we're talking about. That's about as close as one gets to an "omniscient narrator" beyond a completely third-party Doylist account of the universe itself.

I doubt anyone is going look at an account from the "Chronicle" series and say "oh, that's just what the Titans thought, and what do they know?" They pretty much knew everything in the physical universe - Aman'thul was cognizant of the entirety of Time itself. The reclassification is more likely due to the fact that WoW is now exploring spaces beyond the physical universe accounted for in "Chronicle," meaning that there is and going to be canon outside its scope, things that the Titans can't speak of because it is beyond the universe itself.

If Amanthul could tell the future then he should have done something about Sargeras sooner. How could this be from the titans when they were "dead" or captured nearly all of mortal history.