Star Wars Episode IX: The Rise of Skywalker

[Elim Garak]

Just getting angry isn't how to use the dark side. Anyone can get angry, but that's not how being good at the force works. Here's a canon scene of Dooku training Savage. It requires training, discipline, and will to focus your anger instead of letting it dominate you.

You said it yourself, it requires training to control the dark side. Not use it chaotically. Like Rey did. Like Savage did. They didn't just get angry, they let anger to control them, dominate. That's the way to the dark side. But Rey unlike Savage, didn't want to succumb to the dark side. Hence she took Kylo's fighter, flew it to the island planet and burned it - essentially stranding herself there.

So you are contradicting yourself.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

JBut Rey doesn't do that. She's just good without any real training. A couple of weeks of boot camp doesn't make you a veteran or an expert, no matter how good your genetics are.

it kinda does in starwars though. luke with a year or so of training beat vader who is the top dog of the galaxy for example.

other then that i agree with your post though, rey doesn't really develop at all though out any of the movies they just throw crap at her and she's always fine.

though i personally wouldn't use the word mary sue as it doesn't quite fit.

[Fabinas]

That's a lot of words to say "The Last Jedi sucked and you're not a real Star Wars fan if you don't appreciate the half assed efforts Rise of Skywalker made to erase its existence from canon."

It's impossible for me to disagree more with you. In fact, those half assed efforts are precisely why the movie is mediocre. J. J. could have run with the idea and taken the franchise in a direction that wasn't hamstrung by its past and instead decide to please the lowest common denominator -- shitty Star Wars fans who care wayyyyyyy too fucking much about "lore" -- and the entire film suffered as a result.

You're just refuting with no explanation or counterargument. What you claim is not said at all. It's explicitly explained and you answer with "Nah"

[Kyphael]

Just realized something that's REALLY stupid they repeated for nostalgia.
After Rey kisses Kylo she declares herself a Skywalker
How FUCKING stupid is that? She's now his fucking cousin/sister.

She probably finds it kinkier if they're cousins/siblings, like Joe Dirt.

JIll: What's the matter, Joe? Don't I turn you on? Would it help if you went back to thinking I'm your sister?
Joe: Like I'm sound kind of white trash perv!?

*Trailer shakes*
Jill: I'm your sister!

[Torvald]

And just like you waive off the reasons why Rey isn't a Mary Sue, I waive off your explanation as "excuses" to why Luke isn't. You don't explain why the reasons for Rey as excuses, you just declared them so. So, no, your explanation on Luke are just "excuses" not actual proof he isn't a Mary Sue.

TFA was the first film in almost two decades where a new pilot character was introduced, the prior one was Anakin. And honestly, technology has improved, that isn't a dig on any character, but rather the movies want to show more eye candy scenes. If they had Rey fly worse, hypothetically speaking there ... what would be the point? What is gained? Nothing.

Luke was literally handled the right to fly over MORE EXPERIENCED pilots to fight the Death Star (this is CANON and was in Legends as Well) ... In LEGENDS, Luke singlehandedly took out most of the Death Star's TIE Fighters, yes, Vader out flew him, so what? He still managed to avoid Vader long enough not to get shot down prior to Han showing up. Something where MORE EXPERIENCED pilots failed to do.

If Lucas had the technology that Disney had for TFA to make ANH, I bet he would have had Luke doing all sort of weird unbelievable flying maneuvers.

You're burning your credibility trying to argue that Rey isn't a Mary Sue and that Luke is somehow equivalent to Rey in hero treatment. The statement about "CANON" comes across as silly. The movie gives the impression of the rebels being shorthanded on personnel and pilots (outside material is inconsequential), and regardless, your arguments depend on trying to dredge up obscure points that audiences likely wouldn't even remember. Rey being too perfect at everything, on the other hand, is front and center. It was a big complaint about her after The Force Awakens, but I think audiences were willing to let it slide because they assumed the second movie was going to bring her low and do the work of providing a lineage to explain it, and of course, it didn't. And now the third movie is trying to do all the work the second movie should have done, but with all the awkwardness of there having been no plan in the the Force Awakens and Last Jedi movies.

And the ability to generate "eye candy" scenes with newer technology is a horrendous reason to make someone into an expert right off the bat, doesn't matter what you theorize Lucas would have done if he could have done that with Luke. Ultimately, Luke's one big moment of glory is surrounded by moments of him looking like a failure, including him being locked on to get shot down by Vader when he's saved dramatically by Han returning, and Luke's second movie is just him working his way to a brutal failure.

It's easy to wave off reasons why Rey "isn't a Mary Sue" when they are bad reasons, and easy to declare them as bad excuses when they obviously are. You're trying to fit a square peg into a round hole. She's a terrible character with no hero's journey. The gap between Rey and Luke is night and day, no matter how much you want to try to make the ridiculous argument that the climax of Luke destroying the Death Star makes it otherwise.

That's a lot of words to say "The Last Jedi sucked and you're not a real Star Wars fan if you don't appreciate the half assed efforts Rise of Skywalker made to erase its existence from canon."

It's impossible for me to disagree more with you. In fact, those half assed efforts are precisely why the movie is mediocre. J. J. could have run with the idea and taken the franchise in a direction that wasn't hamstrung by its past and instead decide to please the lowest common denominator -- shitty Star Wars fans who care wayyyyyyy too fucking much about "lore" -- and the entire film suffered as a result.

"Precisely why the movie is mediocre" - ha, no. The movie was doomed to never be anything better than mediocre because of what came before it. There's no recovering from Last Jedi, just weak efforts that can be made to TRY and fix their position (didn't say those efforts were all smart and good, only that they at least constitutes efforts at damage control). Anyone trying to make the argument that The Last Jedi was taking the franchise in some new exciting direction is little more than a dishonest hack. "The past doesn't matter, everything sucks, except for Rey's who's the greatest at everything for no reason" leaves you with nothing of value, and was an idiotic move to make in the eighth main-line movie of a franchise.

But hey, I'll admit JJ Abrams massively screwed up The Force Awakens. I'm not giving JJ a pass for his dumb rehashing of A New Hope. That was a horrible decision too, which also undermined the past accomplishments. I can write quite a bit about why The Force Awakens was its own squandered opportunity. In the end, he did a terrible job at the start, but Rian Johnson one-upped him with how bad Last Jedi was.

[Kokolums]

Sure, nevermind the fact that Kylo trolled and manipulated her with that.
Nevermind all the scratchings on the wall in her "home" counting the days of waiting.
Nevermind that it led her into the dark side hole, that scared the shit out of Luke "You didn't even try to resist..."
Nevermind the fact that she actually knew that her parents left her for good, sold her, but since it was a childhood trauma she buried it deep inside and replaced it with the hope of their return.
Nevermind that it only gets resolved in episode 9.

What is all this? It doesn't counter what I said. There's some sort of claim that she can't let go of her past, but it was really super easy to leave Jakku and never return. Scratches on a wall doesn't change that.

[DarkAmbient]

Kylo turned out to be such a lame character. He could have been so much more interesting. A great actor wasted on a crappy role.

Episodes 7, 8 & 9 are an abomination tbh. The bland new characters, the trashing of Luke, Kylo's disappointing arc, the ridiculous return of Palpatine, the lack of charm. Visually they are impressive but the 'feel' of Star Wars was missing.

[Relapses]

"Precisely why the movie is mediocre" - ha, no. The movie was doomed to never be anything better than mediocre because of what came before it. There's no recovering from Last Jedi, just weak efforts that can be made to TRY and fix their position (didn't say those efforts were all smart and good, only that they at least constitutes efforts at damage control). Anyone trying to make the argument that The Last Jedi was taking the franchise in some new exciting direction is little more than a dishonest hack. "The past doesn't matter, everything sucks, except for Rey's who's the greatest at everything for no reason" leaves you with nothing of value, and was an idiotic move to make in the eighth main-line movie of a franchise.

But hey, I'll admit JJ Abrams massively screwed up The Force Awakens. I'm not giving JJ a pass for his dumb rehashing of A New Hope. That was a horrible decision too, which also undermined the past accomplishments. I can write quite a bit about why The Force Awakens was its own squandered opportunity. In the end, he did a terrible job at the start, but Rian Johnson one-upped him with how bad Last Jedi was.

Do you... not understand that your criticism of The Force Awakens is precisely why Rian made the film he did? Snoke was a shitty bad guy. Kylo Ren's story was incredibly weak. It posed pointless questions about Rey's lineage. Rian took all of this and decided he wanted to take the franchise in a direction that wasn't chock full of Memberberries and sly winks at the audience.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that TLJ is a masterpiece or that I agree with every decision that was made... but to pin all of Rise of Skywalker's problems on TLJ is a weak and reductive argument which bypasses the precise reason the film is the way it is: Because TFA is a shitty disinteresting retread.

[Darththeo]

You're burning your credibility trying to argue that Rey isn't a Mary Sue and that Luke is somehow equivalent to Rey in hero treatment.

I am not arguing they are equivalent in hero treatment, but rather the silly argument for Rey being a "Mary Sue" can equally apply to Luke.

The rest of your argument is irrelevant.

Because:
1) Canon matters if you are going to make arguments that a character should or shouldn't be allowed to do something.
2) Rey isn't an "expert" just because she displays more skill in her first showing than any others. But, let's also ignore canon that the first time Han flew the Falcon (already customized by Lando remember), it was during his Kessel run ... through the uncharted dangerous Maw. There is no one arguing that Han shouldn't have been able to fly through the Maw.

They are only bad because you don't care for all the facts and only the facts that prove your viewpoint correct.

There are problems with Rey, she has several bad flaws that make it difficult to support her. But what she isn't, is a Mary Sue.

[SirCowdog]

Ignoring a lot to make an argument there.

Such as? I admit, I'm not going to read through nearly 300 pages of this thread to find the counter argument, but I'm completely open to evidence if it's provided.

[Darththeo]

What is all this? It doesn't counter what I said. There's some sort of claim that she can't let go of her past, but it was really super easy to leave Jakku and never return. Scratches on a wall doesn't change that.

Except it does. Just because you view it as "scratches" doesn't mean it is a scratch.

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Such as? I admit, I'm not going to read through nearly 300 pages of this thread to find the counter argument, but I'm completely open to evidence if it's provided.

Well, "real training" means nothing. I can argue Luke had no "real training" to be a fighter pilot (it is out of movie source that states X-Wings and Skyhoppers have similar controls) and no "real training" to be able to escape Vader in ESB.
Where is the line, you can make a claim you need to clearly define what you see as "real" training.

Also, she doesn't display any trait that I would define as "expert" personality. Finn had to tell her to fly low to confuse the TIEs equipment ... something an expert would have known.

[SirCowdog]

You said it yourself, it requires training to control the dark side. Not use it chaotically. Like Rey did. Like Savage did. They didn't just get angry, they let anger to control them, dominate. That's the way to the dark side. But Rey unlike Savage, didn't want to succumb to the dark side. Hence she took Kylo's fighter, flew it to the island planet and burned it - essentially stranding herself there.

So you are contradicting yourself.

No? I'm speaking of her entire arc, from episode 7 on, not just the retconning JJ was required to do in ep 9(I give him credit for attempting the colossal, herculean task of unfucking the trainwreck Johnson caused in 8).

Dooku: A lifetime of training with several masters.
Palpatine: A lifetime of training with a master.
Luke: A lifetime of training with several masters.
Kylo: A lifetime of training with several masters.
Anakin: A lifetime of training with several masters.

Even if we take the entire span of time from the moment Rey runs into Fin until the end of episode 9, it's jack shit compared to literally every other force-user of importance to the story of Star Wars. Even Emperor Palpatine(widely considered to be the most powerful dark-side user in thousands of years) was discovered and trained by Plagueis for years into his adult life.

Anakin, who's literally the chosen one, went up against dooku at a similar age as Rey, and got SMOKED. And Anakin had been trained since a child.

Rey, on the other hand, just magically gets to be super good at just about everything with relatively little training. With almost no explanation of how or why she's able to do so. That's why she's considered a mary sue.

[Darththeo]

Kylo turned out to be such a lame character. He could have been so much more interesting. A great actor wasted on a crappy role.

Episodes 7, 8 & 9 are an abomination tbh. The bland new characters, the trashing of Luke, Kylo's disappointing arc, the ridiculous return of Palpatine, the lack of charm. Visually they are impressive but the 'feel' of Star Wars was missing.

Luke's character made sense though given that his student turned to the Dark Side and destroyed his temple ... we are just missing the story that happened post Temple destruction and TLJ.

You mean like the vaunted EU did with Palpatine? I am sorry, but we literally had Palpatine return story in the EU (yes, it was a clone, but the EU handled Force cloning pretty well). Palpatine's survival was akin to Maul's. People praise the Clone Wars with Maul surviving, and yet people are trashing this for Palpatine surviving. Was it done perfectly? No, there needed to be more hints he was still around in the other movies for me (tbh).

I wasn't disappointed in Kylo's arc personally, but I can see where you feel that.

And the rest, well, I heard it all with the prequels.

[Fahrenheit]

The movie was entertaining, because it’s Star Wars... but it was kind of a hot mess.

[SirCowdog]

Well, "real training" means nothing. I can argue Luke had no "real training" to be a fighter pilot (it is out of movie source that states X-Wings and Skyhoppers have similar controls) and no "real training" to be able to escape Vader in ESB.
Where is the line, you can make a claim you need to clearly define what you see as "real" training.

Also, she doesn't display any trait that I would define as "expert" personality. Finn had to tell her to fly low to confuse the TIEs equipment ... something an expert would have known.

I was primarily speaking of the force use. I have no real qualms with her supposed talents at piloting, even if it is kind of a stretch that she'd be able to fly the Falcon so well on such short notice. It's not completely out of the realm of possibility consider how the force tends to guide people who are otherwise unaware they're using it.

My real complaint is when Rey is compared to other force users.

[Darththeo]

No? I'm speaking of her entire arc, from episode 7 on, not just the retconning JJ was required to do in ep 9(I give him credit for attempting the colossal, herculean task of unfucking the trainwreck Johnson caused in 8).

Dooku: A lifetime of training with several masters.
Palpatine: A lifetime of training with a master.
Luke: A lifetime of training with several masters.
Kylo: A lifetime of training with several masters.
Anakin: A lifetime of training with several masters.

Even if we take the entire span of time from the moment Rey runs into Fin until the end of episode 9, it's jack shit compared to literally every other force-user of importance to the story of Star Wars. Even Emperor Palpatine(widely considered to be the most powerful dark-side user in thousands of years) was discovered and trained by Plagueis for years into his adult life.

Anakin, who's literally the chosen one, went up against dooku at a similar age as Rey, and got SMOKED. And Anakin had been trained since a child.

Rey, on the other hand, just magically gets to be super good at just about everything with relatively little training. With almost no explanation of how or why she's able to do so. That's why she's considered a mary sue.

Also, literally irrelevant to whether or not a character is a Mary Sue.

I like how you say "several" rather than 2 indirectly implying a lot more. And Luke did not have a lifetime of training with several masters ... he had a couple lessons from Obi-wan and a couple months at most with Yoda.

Dooku: Yoda and Palpatine (how much Palpatine trained Dooku is unknown).
Palpatine time with Plagueis is not currently known canonly, but correct with Legends.
Luke already mentioned.
Kylo: Luke and Snoke.
Anakin: Obi-wan and Palpatine.

Yes, Rey learned the Force faster, but Luke becomes a Jedi Knight in four years and survives electrocution from the Emperor which in other sources damages people far more than what happened to Luke. It was established that it takes YEARS of Study under a Master to become a Knight ... LUKE DID NOT HAVE THAT. He was mostly self taught.

Why is 4 years mostly self taught so much better than 1 year plus mostly self taught? Also, Rey had "several" Masters by your definition ... being Luke and Leia (This is a problem I had with the story ... Leia basically being a fully trained Jedi was never hinted at in TFA or any of the materials prior to.). This is the problem I have with the Mary Sue argument ... you apply different logic to Rey than you do to Luke, Anakin or any other character.

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I was primarily speaking of the force use. I have no real qualms with her supposed talents at piloting, even if it is kind of a stretch that she'd be able to fly the Falcon so well on such short notice. It's not completely out of the realm of possibility consider how the force tends to guide people who are otherwise unaware they're using it.

My real complaint is when Rey is compared to other force users.

Luke: 4 years mostly self taught.
Rey: Over 1 year mostly self taught.

Tell me please why 4 years is believable but 1 year is too unbelievable?

Luke after training with Yoda only had Obi-wan's journal.
Rey after training with Luke (yes only a few lessons) had the scared texts of the Jedi and trained with Leia during the time.

In one year, Luke goes from being beaten by Vader to being able to beat him. Rey goes from being virtually tied in strength to Kylo to only beating the Emperor because he didn't stop his Force lightning attack. Tell me, why one is less believable than the other?

[Deletedaccount1]

I was primarily speaking of the force use. I have no real qualms with her supposed talents at piloting, even if it is kind of a stretch that she'd be able to fly the Falcon so well on such short notice. It's not completely out of the realm of possibility consider how the force tends to guide people who are otherwise unaware they're using it.

My real complaint is when Rey is compared to other force users.

She's just a boring character. She has no flaws or real personality traits at all besides the fact that she is morally perfect and incredibly skilled at whatever she is doing. They really pulled one over on us with that trailer showing her turning to the dark side but while watching the movie I figured out very quickly that this was just going to be a vision or something, which it was. Kylo Ren was definitely a better character who had some conflict going on. Rey really does feel like a Disney princess and I can't help but feel how pervasive their influence was in these movies.

[Darththeo]

She's just a boring character. She has no flaws or real personality traits at all besides the fact that she is morally perfect and incredibly skilled at whatever she is doing. They really pulled one over on us with that trailer showing her turning to the dark side but while watching the movie I figured out very quickly that this was just going to be a vision or something, which it was. Kylo Ren was definitely a better character who had some conflict going on. Rey really does feel like a Disney princess and I can't help but feel how pervasive their influence was in these movies.

Just because you keep repeating a false statement doesn't make it true.

She is definitely not morally perfect. She wanted to kill Kylo, she wanted to kill Palpatine. Wanting to kill someone =/= morally perfect.

[Sondrelk]

In my opinion all the 3 main characters have shades of a true Mary Sue character, though each one approaches it from a different angle.

Luke is just seemingly good at stuff, and people like him fairly quickly. Though for those movies, or specifically the first one it works, since characters destined to be great is a common occurence in the monomyth.

Anakin is specificaly mentioned as being great at most everything he tries his hand at. He is highly intelligent, uncommonly gifted with the Force and has a mind both for one-on-one combat as well as tatical maneuvers.
In this case however the movies show more realistically what would happen to someone like that. Only a few people are quick to trust him, and the rest seem to be on some level afraid of him. Alongside this his power makes his arrogant, leading to his hero complex that Palpatine manipulates in Revenge of the Sith.

Rey meanwhile never gets a grounded moment of us understanding either why she is that good at stuff, or a point (at least until 9) where her immense powers are shown to be a problem.
Rey is shown as a good scavenger, seemingly only held back by her surroundings, not from any internal factor. People who meet her are quick ot trust, even when she has done nothing exceptional to earn it. And her force powers, as well as her combat prowess is treated as a given, instead of given proper context.
If Disney wanted to make her earn her powers then they needed to make them more grounded, either by showing more scenes of her learnig stuff, or more scenes of backstory with her building skill.
Or they could have gone more the Anakin route, where her powers are shown to alienate others leading to a moment where she has to confront her inner demons. The movies almost seemed like they were going that route but never fully commit. They could for instance have had moments of her power going haywire, leading to damage either to herself or others. Or more generally showing her as an outcast in the Resistance, most importantly Leia, leading ot a moment where she earns their trust.


All in all though, much of this comes from the effects trying to be far more spectacular than before, making us wonder what makes her so immensely powerful compared to others. Things like questioning why Kylo Ren can stop a blaster midair while Vader could only block them.

[Deletedaccount1]

Luke: 4 years mostly self taught.
Rey: Over 1 year mostly self taught.

Tell me please why 4 years is believable but 1 year is too unbelievable?

That's not the point. The emperor whoops Luke's ass in RoTJ. He never stands a chance even. It was up to Vader to save him and redeem himself which was a nice, heartfelt ending to that trilogy. This movie doesn't correct the grave problem that RoTJ had, the fact that the emperor trying to seduce Luke with the power of the dark side falls flat because it wasn't in Luke's nature to desire that power. The same thing happens in this film, the emperor offers Rey the chance to be the empress but we all know she is morally perfect so the outcome is extremely predictable.