Reasoning for it?

[Minikin]

i love how when the term genocide is discussed its like "nooooo terms from this world cant be used in WoW! it doesnt have an UN or anything! this cant work!"

but when here the dictionary and all these definitions for nation and all get broken out to support a swiss cheese like argument.

[cparle87]

Because saying that what is happening in Org now happened in Silvermoon as well back then is 100% fanfiction. What isn't fanfiction is this:



Looks like Bob's rule is 100% legit

Of course what's happening in Orgrimmar now happened in Silvermoon, then. The difference is that with Lor'themar's knowledge or without there were mages going around mind controlling the people who were speaking out against him to make them praise him, often in the middle of their speeches. Go to the southwest corner of the Bazaar and see for your self.

[Shiza]

She is a blood elf. As such, she should be loyal to Anasterian's rightful successor, aka Lor'themar. The very fact that she doesn't makes her a traitor.

Lor'themar allowed her to be enslaved by his allies of the Horde. She doesn't owe any allegiance to a government that allows her to be enslaved by an allied country. Lor'themar wilfully allied himself with a nation which representants kept a citizen of Quel'thalas a slave without forcing her freedom.

[Soon-TM]

Lor'themar allowed her to be enslaved by his allies of the Horde. She doesn't owe any allegiance to a government that allows her to be enslaved by an allied country. Lor'themar wilfully allied himself with a nation which representants kept a citizen of Quel'thalas a slave without forcing her freedom.

Again - Silvermoon is a !@#&ing monarchy. You don't get to disavow your rightful ruler's calls just because you are salty (even if you have legitimate reasons for it), without being branded a traitor. That's how absolute monarchies worked, my dude.

[Thage]

Again - Silvermoon is a !@#&ing monarchy. You don't get to disavow your rightful ruler's calls just because you are salty (even if you have legitimate reasons for it), without being branded a traitor. That's how absolute monarchies worked, my dude.

Technically, Silvermoon is a council-backed regency that was until recently led by a triumvirate. Also, their political situation has largely been a mess ever since the regency was established, because Lor'themar hasn't had the time or luxury of setting up a permanent government between pulling the blood elves back from the brink of extinction and constant warfare since.

Also, the quoted poster has a point. Valeera has no reason to remain loyal to Silvermoon when the government did nothing to secure her freedom during her time as an enslaved gladiator fighting in the orcish arena circuit. At some point, that trumps whatever claim the regency would seek to hold over you as it effectively abandoned you as a citizen. It's extremely myopic to demand fealty from someone you let fight in deathmatches against her will as someone else's property.

[Ardenaso]

Again - Silvermoon is a !@#&ing monarchy. You don't get to disavow your rightful ruler's calls just because you are salty (even if you have legitimate reasons for it), without being branded a traitor. That's how absolute monarchies worked, my dude.

Haha yes I know I allowed them to make your life shit but just deal with it or I will put a bounty on your head

[yani9841]

i love how when the term genocide is discussed its like "nooooo terms from this world cant be used in WoW! it doesnt have an UN or anything! this cant work!"

but when here the dictionary and all these definitions for nation and all get broken out to support a swiss cheese like argument.

Genocide is easy to establish, but the implication of war crimes in a setting that has no equivalent to the UN or some global authority to enforce laws to relate to wartime activities isn't going to serve much more than some author's self insert.

[Minikin]

Again - Silvermoon is a !@#&ing monarchy. You don't get to disavow your rightful ruler's calls just because you are salty (even if you have legitimate reasons for it), without being branded a traitor. That's how absolute monarchies worked, my dude.

Take your rage elsewhere the thread doesn't need it

How about this before you start getting angry again go to your precious dictionary website open the thesaurus and check out monrachy. You won't find Regency there. Guess what the opposite is true for Regency also, no monarchy there.


https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/monarchy

Definition of monarchy
1: undivided rule or absolute sovereignty by a single person
Saudi Arabia is governed by a monarchy.
2: a nation or state having a monarchical government
Britain is a monarchy.
3: a government having a hereditary chief of state with life tenure and powers varying from nominal to absolute

But hey that's fine. We can just look up the definition of Regency and claim it's a monarchy right? King Lorthemar isn't it? Not Regent lord? Title must be wrong in game, that must be it.

[Varodoc]

I always love when people brand Alleria, Vereesa, and Valeera "traitors" because they rejected their current government, while Theron, who betrayed his rightful Warchief like thrice, gets away scots-free. Real-life history is not black and white, and neither is Warcraft history. Those shrieking "TRAITOR!" are very often traitors themselves.

[Minikin]

I always love when people brand Alleria, Vereesa, and Valeera "traitors" because they rejected their current government, while Theron, who betrayed his rightful Warchief like thrice, gets away scots-free. Real-life history is not black and white, and neither is Warcraft history. Those shrieking "TRAITOR!" are very often traitors themselves.

How dare you speak I'll of our king Regent lord of the monarchy of silver moon!

[Nathanyel]

How dare you speak I'll of our king Regent lord of the monarchy of silver moon!

Genuinely had to look up your previous posts to confirm you're being sarcastic, despite believing to remember you were one of the more reasonable posters in this thread It just looks too real.

[Soon-TM]

I always love when people brand Alleria, Vereesa, and Valeera "traitors" because they rejected their current government, while Theron, who betrayed his rightful Warchief like thrice, gets away scots-free. Real-life history is not black and white, and neither is Warcraft history. Those shrieking "TRAITOR!" are very often traitors themselves.

Well, Valeera being a traitor to Bob doesn't mean that Bob can't be a traitor on his own. But it wouldn't be Valeera's call to make, unless she stops calling herself a blood elf, and starts admitting that she's just a vanilla high elf. But that doesn't sound so special, does it?

[Varodoc]

Well, Valeera being a traitor to Bob doesn't mean that Bob can't be a traitor on his own. But it wouldn't be Valeera's call to make, unless she stops calling herself a blood elf, and starts admitting that she's just a vanilla high elf. But that doesn't sound so special, does it?

That will happen once Theron stops calling himself Horde.

Also, uhm, that would actually make Valeera MORE special. She'd basically be the only green-eyed Alliance-affiliated High elf in the cosmos. Granted, she wouldn't be nearly as special as Alleria (the only Void elf who can switch back to her High elf form), but still it would be considerable.

Genuinely had to look up your previous posts to confirm you're being sarcastic, despite believing to remember you were one of the more reasonable posters in this thread It just looks too real.

The funny thing is the hypocrisy of these people, who all happen to be Sylvanas fanboys or Saurfang haters in some way. In one thread they might be saying things like "Theron and Baine are such treacherous pieces of shit, Sylvanas should kill them", while in the other they'll say stuff like "I want Theron to impale Alleria and all the other traitors on the spires of Sunfury for all to see".

[Nathanyel]

The funny thing is the hypocrisy of these people

Whatever fits their narrative. They might think getting a "win" (getting their circlejerk to agree with them) on some minor thing also grants progress on their actual agenda.

[Terongor]

Same reason alliance called alterac traitors because of second war.

Alterac was equal member of alliance and leaving alliance
was its own choice and then offering ceases fire with the horde for military acceses so totaly normal.

[Ardenaso]

Same reason alliance called alterac traitors because of second war.

Alterac was equal member of alliance and leaving alliance
was its own choice and then offering ceases fire with the horde for military acceses so totaly normal.

to be fair if the some ruling body wants us to be nothing more than mere live baits for the enemy I'd also rather join the enemy

#AlteraciHumanForTheHorde

[Mehrunes]

I understood your post just fine. You're obviously having trouble with the fact that Valeera is not a member of the Horde or a resident of Silvermoon, and thus her support of Varian and Anduin does not constitute supporting an enemy power at war with her homeland. She'd have to collaborate with somebody against Stormwind for that.

Did you, really? Because @Soon-TM's post was about Valeera's homeland. You know, her place of origin. Because that's what the word means. It's not a reference to any given place your current home is located at. So unless you have some evidence that Valeera originates from Stormwind, you not only did not understood their point fine (or at all) but what you said here is flat out wrong.

You mean the authority of a regent who was appointed by a guy who betrayed the world by siding with the Legion? Not saying that Lor'themar is a bad ruler, but trying to claim she's a traitor for not following someone who became leader in a questionable way is off.

Except he wasn't appointed in a questionable way. Kael going mad doesn't retroactively render all his decisions prior to going mad void. Especially since Lor'themar sided with Quel'Thalas when Kael decided to attack it. On top of that there exists no alternative to contest Lor'themar's power. Finally, Valeera is a random nobody as far as the power structure of the kingdom is concerned, giving her no authority whatsoever to be some kind of a judge whether Lor'themar's rule is questionable or not, let alone to validate her not following it.

Goes to credibility. Just look at all the scripted npc events going on in Orgrimmar. All the former Banshee Loyalists getting grilled for siding with Sylvanas before it was revealed she was batshit nuts. Anyone would walk up to Lor'themar and say "Why should I accept you as my leader? Look who handed you your position. Why should I trust and listen to you."

But that's not what happened. The stark majority of the Horde sided with Sylvanas. Yet the stark majority of the Horde isn't in chains. Because, you know, the ones that were put in chains are still loyal to Sylvanas. After she left the Horde. Not that randoms being put in chains by the leaders after a leadership change has any relevance to the randoms getting a carte blanche to just ignore the new leadership.

Nah, the blood elves are traitors, they were alliance but ditched ot join the horde.
all the blood elves are traitors, the void elves, high elves, and valeera are the ones who aren't traitors.

Quel'Thalas hasn't been an Alliance member state since WC3...

Blood Elf is a race, not a nationality, so I'd say there's a clear difference.

But Valeera is from Quel'Thalas. It's not like there' a plethora of Thalasian nation on Azeroth.

You forgot the part where you aren't french to begin with.

So not only is Valeera of Stormwindian origin, but she's also not Thalassian? Who knew? Never mind that swearing fealty to the family of Wrynns a opposed to Stormwind, which is precisely the thing Valeera has done doesn't actually make her Stormwindian.

Where did you get that nonsense from? Nations have been a thing for thousands of years before modernity, and races in WoW do not equal nationalities at all. Nearly every race has at least one splintergroup, often hostile to them, and most nations in the lore have citizens of other races.

A splinter group does not constitute a nation. No Thalassian splinter group has ever even attempted to form one.

I guess you could take a look at that same website you are quoting and read the actual in game quote from her.

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Valeera_Sanguinar
"I am neither Horde nor Alliance. What has either faction ever done for me?"

or you know, World of Warcraft Comic: Stranger in a Strange Land:
"She culturally identifies as a blood elf, taking pride in her people's traditions and defending their tribulations and loyalties. However, she herself acts independently of the Thalassian government, and has formally joined neither the Horde nor the Alliance since her introduction but is fiercely loyal to Varian and his son."

but who am i kidding, obviously YOUR opnion matters more than
1. Person working for Blizzard programming a quote as her audio file
2. Person working for Blizzard typing up a quote for a character.

Dont let me stand in the way of the TrAIToR chant.

The funny thing here is that not only does anything you said here actually countered the post by @Soon-TM you were replying to, it actually supports their overall position and you can't even see that.

If anyone had seen her as a traitor, especially the blood elf ruling body, they would have said so after the Wrathgate, where she aided in the Alliance part of the Undercity-questline. You know, the part where Varian declared war on the Horde. No one minded her back then and she never actually helped in any Alliance war effort. She remained a messenger.

Not only was her presence at Underscity rather low-key but being a messenger (though by the description of her vow to Wrynns it was much more than that) for the leaders of a faction hostile to Horde is already complicity in Alliance's actions against the Horde.

Well, maybe, but I do think if apart from Anduin she is secondary aligned with the Uncrowned, maybe it's because of that. I mean, no one ever thought that Lord Ravenholdt was sending intel to the Alliance, even though his stronghold is very close to Tarren's Mill and he is supposed to be the pinnacle of rogues somehow. Also, even though he somehow managed to acquire all sorts of races and lived near Horde territory, noone ever thought of him as a traitor to the Alliance either. Even though he is a human.

But is he a human from a nation that is an Alliance member state? The comparison here fall rather flat when human have multiple nation but there's only one Thalassian one. Especially since judging by the location of his house he's most likely Alteraci. And Alterac not only doesn't even exist anymore but was removed from the Alliance.

[faithbane]

Because some people mistake the race for the nation. Blood elves =/= Kingdom of Quel'thalas. Just like irl Human =/= American (random example). Valeera betrayed nobody, she is free to serve whoever she wants.

Sorry to burst your bubble but every single blood elf that currently exist is a descendant of exiled highbornes from kalimdor who founded the Quel'thalas kingdom led by the Sunstrider Dynasty. It is currently ruled by the King Regent Lor'themar Theron.

Any high/blood elf who is not obeying him and in valeera's case actively working against him is a traitor. You don't have the right to break off and decide you are independent now in the bounds of such a monarchy.

The fact that these traitors are not being persecuted doesn't make them not traitors.

[Minikin]

Genuinely had to look up your previous posts to confirm you're being sarcastic, despite believing to remember you were one of the more reasonable posters in this thread It just looks too real.

Lol I'm sorry I couldn't help it. After a few pages of world war 2 comparisons and Merriam Webster I just decided it's better to just have some fun. Not to mention the part where the one poster claimed deathwing caused Southshore to be plagued lol forgot about that.

[Mehrunes]

i love how when the term genocide is discussed its like "nooooo terms from this world cant be used in WoW! it doesnt have an UN or anything! this cant work!"

but when here the dictionary and all these definitions for nation and all get broken out to support a swiss cheese like argument.

It's almost as if you were conflating arguments coming from different people or something while pretending it constitutes anything tangible. Is this what the lack of bias you take pride in looks like?

Technically, Silvermoon is a council-backed regency that was until recently led by a triumvirate. Also, their political situation has largely been a mess ever since the regency was established, because Lor'themar hasn't had the time or luxury of setting up a permanent government between pulling the blood elves back from the brink of extinction and constant warfare since.

Regency more than implies a monarchy. And it isn't a separate government form.

Also, the quoted poster has a point. Valeera has no reason to remain loyal to Silvermoon when the government did nothing to secure her freedom during her time as an enslaved gladiator fighting in the orcish arena circuit. At some point, that trumps whatever claim the regency would seek to hold over you as it effectively abandoned you as a citizen. It's extremely myopic to demand fealty from someone you let fight in deathmatches against her will as someone else's property.

The fights weren't exactly broadcast like the Superbowl. Is Lor'themar supposed to know about everything that's going on, especially when he joined the Horde with Sylvanas acting as a proxy while he remained in Quel'Thalas?

How about this before you start getting angry again go to your precious dictionary website open the thesaurus and check out monrachy. You won't find Regency there. Guess what the opposite is true for Regency also, no monarchy there.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/monarchy

Definition of monarchy
1: undivided rule or absolute sovereignty by a single person
Saudi Arabia is governed by a monarchy.
2: a nation or state having a monarchical government
Britain is a monarchy.
3: a government having a hereditary chief of state with life tenure and powers varying from nominal to absolute

But hey that's fine. We can just look up the definition of Regency and claim it's a monarchy right? King Lorthemar isn't it? Not Regent lord? Title must be wrong in game, that must be it.

You clearly didn't thoroughly read the definition of a regency from Merriam-Webster. Because it refers to the concept of a regent in turn. Do you know what Merriam-Webster's definition of a regent is? A person who governs a kingdom in the minority, absence, or disability of the sovereign.

Now what is a kingdom, I wonder...

How dare you speak I'll of our king Regent lord of the monarchy of silver moon!

You do realize that regency does not constitute a separate government form from a monarchy, right? And that it's inherently tied to monarchies as other forms of government don't have that function? On top of that the post you jumped on the bandwagon of is fallacious. Lor'themar committing treasonous acts against the people he was obligated to doesn't magically prevent, unmake or validate the people that betray him in turn.

The funny thing is the hypocrisy of these people, who all happen to be Sylvanas fanboys or Saurfang haters in some way. In one thread they might be saying things like "Theron and Baine are such treacherous pieces of shit, Sylvanas should kill them", while in the other they'll say stuff like "I want Theron to impale Alleria and all the other traitors on the spires of Sunfury for all to see".

I really like how you repeated your fallacy in the very same post you replied to @Soon-TM's reply to you pointing out how your position is fallacious.