Is Classic too easy?

[Echocho]

God i love you lot - your argument is "prove its NOT about speed running" while being completely unable to prove it is about speed running. Blizzard provide numerous achievements and FEATS of strength related to completing raids, and leader boards for who has killed what. But i cant find the official blizzard leader board for speed running raids? Was this an oversight by Blizzard?

The problem is that most sane people claim that retail raids are harder than Classic ones. The retort from obviously delusional players is then "no it's not, have you cleared it in 30 minutes?"

Artificially creating difficulty for yourself doesn't count. Nobody has ever claimed that you have to clear a raid in X minutes for the clear to be valid. It would be like saying that you have to clear it without gear in order to say you actually cleared it.

You kill the last boss you clear the raid. Doesn't matter if you do it in 30 minutes or 3 hours.

I can clear Classic raids while watching Netflix because they're so mind numbingly easy, I can't clear mythic raids in retail because they're too hard.

[arkanon]

The problem is that most sane people claim that retail raids are harder than Classic ones. The retort from obviously delusional players is then "no it's not, have you cleared it in 30 minutes?"

Artificially creating difficulty for yourself doesn't count. Nobody has ever claimed that you have to clear a raid in X minutes for the clear to be valid. It would be like saying that you have to clear it without gear in order to say you actually cleared it.

You kill the last boss you clear the raid. Doesn't matter if you do it in 30 minutes or 3 hours.

I can clear Classic raids while watching Netflix because they're so mind numbingly easy, I can't clear mythic raids in retail because they're too hard.

I think some of the community created events are pretty cool - ironman challenge and all its other versions are a cool idea for adding difficulty to an extremely easy game. Same with speed running - if people want to challenge themselves and each other to completing content as fast as possible, thats fine!

The reality is these community created challenges exist because the content is extremely easy, and the only way to make it competitive or challenging at all is to intentionally handicap the players.

[dzd]

The reality is these community created challenges exist because the content is extremely easy, and the only way to make it competitive or challenging at all is to intentionally handicap the players.

I.e. play the game however you enjoy it! I see you finally found it.

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God i love you lot - your argument is "prove its NOT about speed running" while being completely unable to prove it is about speed running. Blizzard provide numerous achievements and FEATS of strength related to completing raids, and leader boards for who has killed what. But i cant find the official blizzard leader board for speed running raids? Was this an oversight by Blizzard?

In my opinion players decide what's the feat and for most hardcore classic players it's speedrunning. For you it can be something else, but it doesnt really matter as long as you have fun doing it. If you wanna drown in your own salt in forums and find it fun, that's your choice.

edit: for me it is kinda silly that you need someone else to tell you what is "official" way to play the game. Best time I have had with video games over the years comes from community created things.

[Daymanmb]

Its interesting that you see the same faces in classic threads flaming, baiting and overall trolling.

[arkanon]

I.e. play the game however you enjoy it! I see you finally found it.


In my opinion players decide what's the feat and for most hardcore classic players it's speedrunning. For you it can be something else, but it doesnt really matter as long as you have fun doing it. If you wanna drown in your own salt in forums and find it fun, that's your choice.

What a strange post. I have always said its fantastic that people are enjoying the easy content Classic has, and have been enjoying it myself. I have also said that if people want to actually be challenged, its great that retail is there to keep them happy. For the VERY TINY percentage of players who want to create a subset of rules to try and challenge themselves, since the content doesnt provide that challenge, thats great! But lets not pretend that was ever Blizzards intention, or anything other than an absolutely minuscule percentage of the player base.

Classic is doing fantastic - the fact it can maintain a playerbase even close to 10% of retails is a feat in itself, and i see only good things in the future for those who enjoy classic.

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Its interesting that you see the same faces in classic threads flaming, baiting and overall trolling.

I wouldnt say you are trolling or baiting, just quite misguided. Thats what forums are for though - discussion. Or did you want an echo chamber and anyone who doesnt agree with you is a "troll"?

[Ielenia]

Bullshit. Normal and even Heroic perfectly allow players to be carried during progression. In fact I would say in the majority of Normal and Heroic "casual" progression groups, there are at least a few players being carried that generally don't play well enough for that difficulty (ie: people who have much inferior dps and/or consistently fail mechanics). I've done plenty of Normal and Heroic progression, and have had my fair share of progression kills where people disconnected in the beginning of the fight. LFR is a whole new level of that.

So it's a dichotomy to you? It doesn't matter how much it affects progression, how it is almost meaningless in classic, but quite the burden on modern?

Yes, the fact that these are 40-man raids mean each death is less "harmful" to the whole group, since it's a smaller percentage of the group that becames inactive. But that also brings increased difficulty in gathering and coordinating those very 40 people, for instance. And it still doesn't make the content easier than LFR by default, because deaths and afk people are very frequently negligible in LFR.

Can you name the most complex fight in classic WoW and what mechanics it has that requires coordination 40 people? Modern WoW's LFR bosses today have more mechanics than classic WoW bosses.

And I never disagreed with that. But you can very much go through the same raid in LFR which are easier.

I thought you said you were comparing the games at their base difficulty.

Of course not. Just like you can't prove they're not.

Then it's meaningless to use that as a basis to your argument.

But I never said I can prove my claims. You on the other hand very clearly stated a specific observable case, so I asked you to go ahead and do it.

Admitting you have no evidence does not allow you to demand others to show evidence when you have shown none.

I'm dismissing it with a fact.

What fact? You provided none.

But to me it's pretty straightforward and obvious that Classic overall has a higher base difficulty level, while modern WoW offers niche optional very high difficulty to those who seek it, and I have given plenty of reasons why I hold that opinion on top of simply how it feels to play both versions.

Since I don't consider "time investment" to be any sort of measure for difficulty (because you don't have a limited amount of time to reach max level) I find classic WoW's leveling to not be difficult at all. The only "difficulty" I find is fighting the boredom that comes with the leveling.

[dzd]

I have also said that if people want to actually be challenged, its great that retail is there to keep them happy. For the VERY TINY percentage of players who want to create a subset of rules to try and challenge themselves, since the content doesnt provide that challenge

True, there is these two official competitive formats in retail called 3v3 arena or m+ where you can even qualify for tournaments for maximum challenge. The unofficial competitive format for classic is speedrunning. Again if you only like official competitions your opinion is valid, but it's just an opinion.

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Can you name the most complex fight in classic WoW and what mechanics it has that requires coordination 40 people? Modern WoW's LFR bosses today have more mechanics than classic WoW bosses.

I don't wanna get involved in this dumb discussion but can you fast explain me why amount of mechanics is good indication of difficulty?

Like seriously that argument in itself is so dumb because you can make 100 mechanics in a fight but none of them are ever lethal and you got in your eyes complex fight, but you are guaranteed to complete it since you can't die.

edit: btw chromaggus has 12 mechanics so maybe it's one of the hardest bosses ever :O

[EyeOculus]

Most raid trashmobs in retail wow have more abilities than some raid bosses.

People back then were terrible players. All of them.

Ahn'qiraj and Naxxramas will meet the same fate as Blackwing Lair.

[Ielenia]

I don't wanna get involved in this dumb discussion but can you fast explain me why amount of mechanics is good indication of difficulty?

Like seriously that argument in itself is so dumb because you can make 100 mechanics in a fight but none of them are ever lethal and you got in your eyes complex fight, but you are guaranteed to complete it since you can't die.

edit: btw chromaggus has 12 mechanics so maybe it's one of the hardest bosses ever :O

Basically, how forgiving the mechanics are, and how much people dying would negatively affect the raid's ability to deal with them.

[Kolvarg]

So it's a dichotomy to you? It doesn't matter how much it affects progression, how it is almost meaningless in classic, but quite the burden on modern?

Your initial statement was simply that "in Classic people can get carried in raids". It was never about how much it affects progression.

And "how much" it affects is not something particularly easy to measure. Like I said, sure Mythic it's not comparable. Heroic you probably have a case. Normal maybe. LFR? Highly doubt it.

Also, the same argument of "how much" applies to every other point we've argued that I've tried to explain but you ignored, not just this one. Yes, you can still overpull in modern. But how easy it is to overpull, and how many you have to overpull for it to get dangerous is very important to take into consideration. Same for group quests, elites, etc.

Can you name the most complex fight in classic WoW and what mechanics it has that requires coordination 40 people? Modern WoW's LFR bosses today have more mechanics than classic WoW bosses.

Classic could have entirely zero boss mechanics. It still requires coordination to get 40 people online, geared, running together at the raid. Yes, they have more mecanics. The majority of them don't matter because everything can be overhealed and/or overdpsed.

I thought you said you were comparing the games at their base difficulty.

I said that's one way one could compare it. But the game isn't just raids. Even if you consider Normal Raids the base difficulty for raids, you still have the other vast majority of game left that's not raiding. I do think the fact that one might make that argument is meaningless since the content is the same. In Modern you have the possibility of completing the raids through an easier mode. In Classic you don't.

And since the majority of players do not raid in Normal or higher difficulties, I consider it fair to consider LFR the base difficulty - with an honorable mention that it can be argued as an "easy mode".

Then it's meaningless to use that as a basis to your argument.

It wouldn't be if you actually tried to have an interesting discussion instead of relying in empty statements to dismiss points made.

Admitting you have no evidence does not allow you to demand others to show evidence when you have shown none.

I demanded nothing. You said one is able to aqcuire evidence. I suggested you did so yourself. If you can't or don't want to, move on.

What fact? You provided none.

"Proving your claim (that Icecrown group quests require groups) in no way disproves my claim (that in general group quests are harder in Classic than in modern WoW)."

Since I don't consider "time investment" to be any sort of measure for difficulty (because you don't have a limited amount of time to reach max level) I find classic WoW's leveling to not be difficult at all. The only "difficulty" I find is fighting the boredom that comes with the leveling.

Maybe you're just so good at the game you can't even notice the difference Not fair to compare your experience to those of us mortals.

[Echocho]

True, there is these two official competitive formats in retail called 3v3 arena or m+ where you can even qualify for tournaments for maximum challenge. The unofficial competitive format for classic is speedrunning. Again if you only like official competitions your opinion is valid, but it's just an opinion.

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I don't wanna get involved in this dumb discussion but can you fast explain me why amount of mechanics is good indication of difficulty?

Like seriously that argument in itself is so dumb because you can make 100 mechanics in a fight but none of them are ever lethal and you got in your eyes complex fight, but you are guaranteed to complete it since you can't die.

edit: btw chromaggus has 12 mechanics so maybe it's one of the hardest bosses ever :O

The amount of mechanics is irrelevant, it's whether you can beat the encounter or not that determine its difficulty.

I can beat all Classic encounters while paying minimal attention to the game. The game is easy.
I can't kill most mythic retail encounters because they're too difficult. The game is hard.

[Ielenia]

Your initial statement was simply that "in Classic people can get carried in raids". It was never about how much it affects progression.

I said that in the way you can go into MC, for example, with people who are there to literally just fill up 40 people, not people "buying carries".

Classic could have entirely zero boss mechanics. It still requires coordination to get 40 people online, geared, running together at the raid.

And in that case it would be easy as hell, as you can just grab rando's as all they'd have to do is stand in place and attack a glorified target dummy, without worrying about being hit at all.

Yes, they have more mecanics. The majority of them don't matter because everything can be overhealed and/or overdpsed.

Nobody could "over-heal" or "over-DPS" Durumu's gaze. Nobody could "over-heal" or "over-DPS" Garalon's body slam. Nobody could "over-heal" or "over-DPS" the tentacles slamming down your head on the Carapace of N'Zoth. Nobody could "over-heal" or "over-DPS" being thrown off Deathwing's spine when he did a barrel roll. Etc, etc...

And since the majority of players do not raid in Normal or higher difficulties, I consider it fair to consider LFR the base difficulty - with an honorable mention that it can be argued as an "easy mode".

If it "can be argued" that it's an "easy mode", then that means it can be argued that it's not the "base difficulty".

It wouldn't be if you actually tried to have an interesting discussion instead of relying in empty statements to dismiss points made.

This all began because you can't accept the fact that "time" is not a measurement of difficulty when there is no time limit. Keep that in mind next time you complain about "interesting discussions".

I demanded nothing. You said one is able to aqcuire evidence. I suggested you did so yourself. If you can't or don't want to, move on.

... You just literally asked for evidence. Again.

"Proving your claim (that Icecrown group quests require groups) in no way disproves my claim (that in general group quests are harder in Classic than in modern WoW)."

It would, since you haven't shown any evidence of your claim.

Maybe you're just so good at the game you can't even notice the difference Not fair to compare your experience to those of us mortals.

If you think I'm some kind of "uber-gamer" because I don't see leveling in classic WoW as a challenge, that speaks more of your "lack of skills" than mine, considering I'm just "above average".

[Will]

It doesn't matter if Classic is "too" this, or "too" that. It's a snapshot project, a museum piece. Discussing if it's too easy or hard is absolutely moot because it is what it is. It's fixed, set in stone.

And before some smartarses come in here telling me there have already been changes. Yes, I know there have been changes already. I'm saying we don't need more on top of those.

[ghays]

It wasn't hard....I've been saying this for a long time, I played Vanilla. It wasn't hard it was just slow as solo and with a decent group you'll breeze through anything.

The people who were going on about Classic being hard were either fooling themselves or just wanted to hype it up for players who didn't know any better. The only raid that may have a chance of not being cleared on opening day is Naxx...and even then a guild like APES has had years of private experience and they could very well clear it same day too.

You can never go back....those words are true...you can't go back to Vanilla, there is only Classic now.

Also, advances in internet connectivity, computer hardware, and having all relevant information available online at the outset didn’t hurt either.

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It doesn't matter if Classic is "too" this, or "too" that. It's a snapshot project, a museum piece. Discussing if it's too easy or hard is absolutely moot because it is what it is. It's fixed, set in stone.

And before some smartarses come in here telling me there have already been changes. Yes, I know there have been changes already. I'm saying we don't need more on top of those.

I play Classic because I like the way the game worked pre Cata, and I do not like retail for a number of reasons. Apparently enough other people have a similar outlook. So it has made Classic relatively successful.

[Will]

This all began because you can't accept the fact that "time" is not a measurement of difficulty

By definition, difficulty means needing a great deal of effort or skill to accomplish. Note how it says effort OR skill.

It doesn't matter if a time limit doesn't exist. If something takes a long time to get, be it through intense grinding or whatever, that can still technically constitute being 'difficult to obtain'. For some people, investing a lot of time without losing interest IS a difficult thing for them.

You can reply arguing all you want, but as long as the oxford English dictionary defines difficulty as viably being something that requires a great deal of effort (and a lot of grinding is arguably a lot of effort (effort in this case defined as something done by hard work)) then nothing I am saying right now is incorrect.

Time absolutely can be a measurement of difficulty, but it's based on context. Another example could be how long one can hold their breath underwater, or a weight, or maintain focus on a task. With many challenges in life, time is one sure fire way of increasing the difficulty level. Think of those electric wire buzzer toys you played with as a kid where you had to guide the hoop along the rail without touching the sides. The longer the run, the harder it objectively becomes to get from A to B without it beeping. Or even with regards to physical age -- with time, you grow older, and once-simple tasks become more difficult. There are numerous examples. Time limits for challenges or puzzles. Races. You name it, the list goes on.

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I play Classic because I like the way the game worked pre Cata, and I do not like retail for a number of reasons. Apparently enough other people have a similar outlook. So it has made Classic relatively successful.

I'm not disagreeing with you. I hope they do TBC servers as that was my favourite era. I was simply telling people that it's totally worthless worrying about the difficulty of classic, because we got given the game as we asked for it.

[Fathr]

Its a game so difficulty only comes into play if you are enjoying yourself or not! Its not the olympics its purely for wasting your free time doing something fun (hopefully).

[Depakote]

End game, in reference to MMOs means max level content that's relevant to continue power progression. It's generally what alot of people really play MMOs for.

WoW is a MMORPG though. People play it for the story, not just for the mmo aspects.

[d00mh4cker]

Yup I was talking about leveling specifically, I said so in my original post. Raiding in classic is easy, if it were as hard then as it is now, nobody would have been able to clear it. People's computers sucked, they were inexperienced, and the devs were new at making encounters still. Nobody should be comparing a game from year 1-2 to year 15, that's just silly. I was just referring to how they've turned leveling into a completely mindless theme park ride. Not that I don't have any complaints about classic leveling but at least it requires you to pay attention.

Alright, I get it, but I prefer retails leveling, as someone who have been leveling characters since 2005, i'm quite tired of it and just wants to reach the end game as fast as possible.

[dzd]

Alright, I get it, but I prefer retails leveling, as someone who have been leveling characters since 2005, i'm quite tired of it and just wants to reach the end game as fast as possible.

I'm not sure if it's good game design that you go work irl for couple hours and just buy max level boost, but I guess that makes them good money. Some of the boosts are free though with expansions but I have definitely paid 60 euros for a few.

[Domixux]

Wow 24 pages and people are still discussing about the games difficulty level. You can go back to page 1-3 and see the exact same arguments brought up like on the last pages.

Maybe you guys should answer just one question for yourself: do you enjoy the game or not? If you do fine go play it if you don't well don't. People who like the game won't buy your arguments anyway and vice versa.