Why are so many Alliance factions open to the Horde?

[Syegfryed]

And they pledged themselves to it, meaning it is a new alliance. Stop digging your hole xD

its the same alliance, they just trade terenas by varian, how is that a "new alliance" when we have canon sources saying the same?

[Minikin]

it always have been, if you have actually followed the discussion

just because im making a statement about a thing don't equal im against the other, just because i said the draeneis are ALSO to blame, don't imply that im also saying the orcs are not to blame, the problem that i talked showing off

tell you what. how about we do something that generally doesnt happen on these forums. from this post onwards we move forwards with the premise that you did indeed mean they are both to blame, and I take back my statement that wasnt your starting message, rather than us constantly tangling and pointing fingers.

The third time is just a joke of history because blizzard is incompetent, and surprise, this time Grom didn't and most of the horde was against it

i have seen no proof of numbers anywhere on how many drank or didnt drink in WoD, so i cannot speak to that.

now you are comapring apples to oranges, those events are not related, Attacking silvermoon was never by arthas survival and his genocide was by pure spite against the elven race, Grom was already affected by the bloodlust and drink to survive.

of course i never said i want to excuse a thing, you are implying things i never said, im saying the first time Grom drink it( the one who was actually being discussed) its not the same to arthas getting frostmourne.

Arthas didnt attack silvermoon cuz he hated the elves. He wanted the Sunwell.

[Specialka]

its the same alliance, they just trade terenas by varian, how is that a "new alliance" when we have canon sources saying the same?

yeah, and it is the same Horde all over after all. They did not change, genocide the Draenei, genocide the NE, what is the difference after all?

[Mehrunes]

Oh and now, we compare wow to international law and such? And we can't do it for the definition of genocide? xD Again you only pick what you need to "win" some silly argument on Internet xD

What are you even talking about? You don't need international law to realize that international organizations (like, I dunno, the Alliance) aren't the same thing as states and that they work differently.

And last time I checked I was the one insisting on using the IRL international law definition of genocide in lieu of WoW having its own definition (just like WoW lacks any international law definitions of states and international organizations that would indicate they should be treated as the same thing in the context of Warcraft) with Alliance posters trying to argue that it is somehow wrong, meaning that this off-topic tangent of yours here is a complete flop on every front possible. You are the one desperately trying to win anything here and you are resorting to grasping at straws that are so flimsy they don't even exist outside of your imagination.

[Feanoro]

Arthas didnt attack silvermoon cuz he hated the elves. He wanted the Sunwell.

It could be argued that from the moment he picked up Frostmourne, he was mind controlled for lack of a better term. Grom doesn't even have that excuse for the times he drank. Fooled once I can buy, but no excuses for the other times.

[Specialka]

What are you even talking about? You don't need international law to realize that international organizations (like, I dunno, the Alliance) aren't the same thing as states and that they work differently.

And last time I checked I was the one insisting on using the IRL international law definition of genocide in lieu of WoW having its own definition (just like WoW lacks any international law definitions of states and international organizations that would indicate they should be treated as the same thing in the context of Warcraft) with Alliance posters trying to argue that it is somehow wrong, meaning that your off-topic tangent of yours here is a complete flop on every front possible. You are the one desperately trying to win anything here and you are resorting to grasping at straws that are so flimsy they don't even exist outside of your imagination.

I do not remember seeing High King as leader of the UNO or NATO.

And the division of the Roman Empire was not just an administration trick. Again you only say what fits you.

[Minikin]

It could be argued that from the moment he picked up Frostmourne, he was mind controlled for lack of a better term. Grom doesn't even have that excuse for the times he drank. Fooled once I can buy, but no excuses for the other times.

we have no real proof of that though. and assuming so is unfair to the orcs because we dont really know the concept of their control, beyond crazed rage.

[Syegfryed]

tell you what. how about we do something that generally doesnt happen on these forums. from this post onwards we move forwards with the premise that you did indeed mean they are both to blame, and I take back my statement that wasnt your starting message, rather than us constantly tangling and pointing fingers.

fine

i have seen no proof of numbers anywhere on how many drank or didnt drink in WoD, so i cannot speak to that.

when someone of a race drink demon blood other get corrupted by the result of it, just like the previous time, we only saw Kil'rogg drinking, and if we assume the people on the citadel did as well. the others in tanaan like before, got fucked because of it.

even with that the maghar was born by the ones who didn't, who actually face then with grom.

Arthas didnt attack silvermoon cuz he hated the elves. He wanted the Sunwell.

Pretty sure he genocide then as a payment because the troubles he had with then.

- - - Updated - - -

yeah, and it is the same Horde all over after all. They did not change, genocide the Draenei, genocide the NE, what is the difference after all?

plenty of times we see canon sources saying its a NEW horde, the "same horde" as already pointed out, could be implied to be the dark horde of blackhand sons.

[Mehrunes]

Seems to be a common problem for them: everything taken literally, face value, no subtlety, if it isn't explicitly spelled out it's not there. Any attempt to suggest otherwise, and you get screeching that you're lying and predictable insults. (I even know exactly what replies this post will get, and from whom.) God knows why anyone would bother to lie about this, but maybe they think there's a vast Alliance conspiracy?

Your claims about Night Elves in Ghostlands are still blatantly wrong for which you still have literally zero sources, no matter how much the very nature of the burden of proof bothers you. And not that I know what's so unlikely about people spreading fanfiction when there are whole sites dedicated to it, but given how you yourself champion the idea that HORDE BIAS is real, your jab about conspiracies is throwing rocks in glass houses at best.

Also, it's rather weird (in a completely not surprising way, mind you) how you're attaching yourself to @Varodoc's post because you found yourself a gotcha without even realizing how they did a complete 180 in regards to their tune about what Metzen said which, you know, quite heavily implies they are making things up. Great choice of a bandwagon to jump on you got there though. Whatever works to own dem "Horde fanbois", right? Even if it doesn't actually work, apparently.

You're surprised? Also, aren't those some beautiful cherries?

Except for the part where they aren't cherries at all, because I was the one insisting on using the international law definition of genocide in the relevant threads and Alliance posters tried to pretend it's wrong of me to do so. But hey, maybe one day when you jump at the opportunity to add your two cents to another Alliance's poster' gotcha it will actually be a gotcha instead of a colossal flop of one.

[Specialka]

fine


when someone of a race drink demon blood other get corrupted by the result of it, just like the previous time, we only saw Kil'rogg drinking, and if we assume the people on the citadel did as well. the others in tanaan like before, got fucked because of it.

even with that the maghar was born by the ones who didn't, who actually face then with grom.



Pretty sure he genocide then as a payment because the troubles he had with then.

- - - Updated - - -



plenty of times we see canon sources saying its a NEW horde, the "same horde" as already pointed out, could be implied to be the dark horde of blackhand sons.

Well, they have the same behavior of genociding ppl so clearly, it really does look like the same Horde.

[Syegfryed]

It could be argued that from the moment he picked up Frostmourne, he was mind controlled for lack of a better term. Grom doesn't even have that excuse for the times he drank. Fooled once I can buy, but no excuses for the other times.

not this is a big headcanon but Grom was being affected by the bloodhaze what the mere presence of Manoroth was clouding his judgment, he saw in the campaign.

Arthas did choose sacrifice muradin and get the cursed weapon, and he already did bad things before, there was no mindcontrol

[Varodoc]

Seems to be a common problem for them: everything taken literally, face value, no subtlety, if it isn't explicitly spelled out it's not there. Any attempt to suggest otherwise, and you get screeching that you're lying and predictable insults. (I even know exactly what replies this post will get, and from whom.) God knows why anyone would bother to lie about this, but maybe they think there's a vast Alliance conspiracy?

- - - Updated - - -

You're surprised? Also, aren't those some beautiful cherries?

Yep, that's the problem with Horde players. They care about Blizzard statements only when it fits their narrative, and when it does fit their narrative they take them at face value. I can't be the only one who noticed this.

Blizzard: "Burning of Teldrassil was genocide."

Horde fanboys: "Actually it's not genocide, it's mass murder, and there is no confirmation of this, only the word of an omniscient narrator who was talking in third person."

Blizzard: "Grand Alliance, you are the Alliance of Lordaeron!"

Horde fanboys: "Yep, that's true. Alliance of Lordaeron and Grand Alliance are the same faction. That's literally what Blizz said, so it must be true. There is no deeper meaning."

[Specialka]

not this is a big headcanon but Grom was being affected by the bloodhaze what the mere presence of Manoroth was clouding his judgment, he saw in the campaign.

Arthas did choose sacrifice muradin and get the cursed weapon, and he already did bad things before, there was no mindcontrol

Yeah Arthas had more on his mind at that moment than most orcs had in their entire life.

[Syegfryed]

Well, they have the same behavior of genociding ppl so clearly, it really does look like the same Horde.

thats a completely nonsense argument because you want to be sarcastic, better acknowledge you were wrong and move on

[Minikin]

fine


when someone of a race drink demon blood other get corrupted by the result of it, just like the previous time, we only saw Kil'rogg drinking, and if we assume the people on the citadel did as well. the others in tanaan like before, got fucked because of it.

even with that the maghar was born by the ones who didn't, who actually face then with grom.

my issue with that is, if i start assuming here then ill have to assume elsewhere. and it starts a whole slippery slope or arguments. especially with how retcons have been happening lately with the story that is extremely dangerous because it will compound the issue.

So if they show the leadership drinking. that doesnt mean all the orcs are shit heads and are to blame. but similarly i know some are shit heads and did drink. the ratio of who did and didnt? i got no clue because they never said what it was in game or in story.

Pretty sure he genocide then as a payment because the troubles he had with then.

nada. Kelthuzad's remains required the sunwell to be reincarned.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JGlF__T_EGw

[Mehrunes]

I do not remember seeing High King as leader of the UNO or NATO.

What do you think a NATO is, exactly, if not a military alliance? And if only we had devs talking about how the High King doesn't have political power over the members of the Alliance (you know, how leader of an actual country would have) and instead is only a military commander. And not just of all forces of Alliance members' but only those directly pledged to him.

And the division of the Roman Empire was not just an administration trick. Again you only say what fits you.

Which is why the nominal capital of the Eastern Roman Empire was Rome. Wait, what happened to your "Rome being the capital makes a Roman Empire a Roman Empire?

Arthas didnt attack silvermoon cuz he hated the elves. He wanted the Sunwell.

But the post you replied to didn't claim he attacked Silvermoon because he hated the Elves. It claimed that he committed the genocide out of spite against the Elves. Which are two different decisions. And that actual statement is more or less correct. Rise of the Lich King shows Arthas making the decision to do that (long after he started the invasion to reach the Sunwell) because the High Elves' persistent defense pissed him off and he wanted to punish them for the cruel act of not allowing him to do whatever he pleased.

[Specialka]

What do you think a NATO is, exactly, if not a military alliance? And if only we had devs talking about how the High King doesn't have political power over the members of the Alliance (you know, how leader of an actual country would have) and instead is only a military commander. And not just of all forces of Alliance members' but only those directly pledged to him.




Which is why the actual capital of the Eastern Roman Empire was Rome. Wait, what happened to your "Rome being the capital makes a Roman Empire a Roman Empire?

It was Constantinople. Dude, you can't even read some wiki.

And countries have pledged themselves only one time to NATO and such. You are wrong, period.

[Syegfryed]

my issue with that is, if i start assuming here then ill have to assume elsewhere. and it starts a whole slippery slope or arguments. especially with how retcons have been happening lately with the story that is extremely dangerous because it will compound the issue.

if we don't assume, then the only orc who rly did drink is kil'rog, then falls the argument of "the orchish race as a whole did, and the whole race are demonsucking monsters"

So if they show the leadership drinking. that doesnt mean all the orcs are shit heads and are to blame. but similarly i know some are shit heads and did drink. the ratio of who did and didnt? i got no clue because they never said what it was in game or in story.

we are going in what see in previous events

In the first time only a few chieftains did, and was enough to put the entire horde corrupted in a bloodlust bound by the Legion will, the only ones safe were the ones far away in quarentene.

The second time only Grom and some soldiers with him drank it, and the clan with him got corrupted, even the beasts were affected by fel energies like the Kodo.

With those events, and they only showing kil'rog drinking, we can expect the same scenario, only a few drinking and fucking everyone else, only the ones with "iron will" were able to resist, like Grom and Ariok(again completely bullshit from the wod writers, they don't even put their colors right, they should be green, or if the demon blood was more potent, it should be red, nothing make much sense anyway.)

nada. Kelthuzad's remains required the sunwell to be reincarned.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JGlF__T_EGw

i know the reason they went to the sunwell, im saying it was not necessary killing 90% of their race, arthas did because he was pissed.

[Aucald]

This thread needs to settle down. Discuss your positions constructively and civilly, drop the snide remarks and unnecessary provocation. Keep it focused on the issues and don't venture into borderline insulting language.

[Mehrunes]

Yep, that's the problem with Horde players. They care about Blizzard statements only when it fits their narrative, and when it does fit their narrative they take them at face value. I can't be the only one who noticed this.

Blizzard: "Burning of Teldrassil was genocide."

Horde fanboys: "Actually it's not genocide, it's mass murder, and there is no confirmation of this, only the word of an omniscient narrator who was talking in third person."

Blizzard: "Grand Alliance, you are the Alliance of Lordaeron!"

Horde fanboys: "Yep, that's true. Alliance of Lordaeron and Grand Alliance are the same faction. That's literally what Blizz said, so it must be true. There is no deeper meaning."

1. That omniscient narrator was describing Anduin's views. And while it did so omnisciently that doesn't prevent Anduin himself from being wrong because Anduin and the narrator are not the same. 2. The Metzen's statement was a case of Word of God, which is the highest source of canon. It also didn't describe anyone's views and simply stated something. 3. Your original claim about what Metzen said was still a complete opposite of what you're claiming now, making it blatantly obvious you're making things up. And this whole thing utterly fails at being convincing even if you throw a smokescreen of complaining about what Horde players are supposedly doing wrong to distract people.