Toxic M+ Leavers

[ID811717]

Going into the obelisk before the tank, pulling mobs, not even going into obelisk when running back. These are not some simple mistakes associated with having a bad day. They're a sign you're in way over your head.

For each of these examples, I can recall myself and many of my friends from 3k-4k cohort do that. "Bad day" gameplay happens to everyone, especially after the key is already considered depleted and you aim only for completion.

And the REAL "high" scored players wouldn't play in random groups anyway, at least not solo. Guess why that is..

They do, a lot. You just won't meet them in +13s.

If you are ambitious and not afraid to put yourself out there (to be judged by others), you will go ahead and obsessively use any chance to pug keys. It's not necessarily a healthy mindset from a real-life perspective, but if you look at people climbing the rating (hundreds of raider.io points per day) - they often have this mindset. You might spend all evening pushing keys with your group of friends, but when they go sleep - you will go and pug several more keys on your own. That also forces you to be more focused and learn new things. Just like you said in the following:

The reason is also simple, those people are [...] used to playing in groups with friends and don't know shit otherwise and aren't able to transfer this experience over to random group play. Because this is a completely different world.

In a group of friends you always end up having some mechanics that are always handled by your friends, and you can just rely that they will reliably do their role. In a random pug, you will be forced to remember those mechanics exist and be ready to handle them yourself. For example: as a healer in a premade I have 100% trust that my group will disrupt Underrot's Fetid Maggot frontal breath or call out for backup. I can focus my attention on other things unless I'm called on. In a full pug, even when using discord voice, you generally don't have the luxury of turning your brain off in a similar way -- everyone is expected to beware of all mechanics and proactively chime in if necessary.

On the other side of the spectrum are people who only play with their fixed group of friends and prefer to passionately hate pugging. Most often these people are complacent and won't be able to get out of their rating/skill plateau. (Different people plateau at different key levels... Some get stuck at 1k and some get stuck at 4k.)

I have personally been a part of either group throughout the years (obsessed min-maxer vs. complacent plateau inhabitant). You naturally have seasons where you're so busy irl that you're happy to just play any challenging content and share your plateau with similarly busy friends, by doing the M+ alternative to raid-logging behavior. And sometimes you have free time and can afford to get obsessed with pushing as high as you can. The latter basically requires you to go out and pug a lot, and really keeps you on your toes.

[Laughingjack]

I can't really say the idea of being trapped in doomed runs interests me. It is a lot more rare now late into a patch but early on you do get a lot of people with whatever level the gear caps at keys who have zero hope of clearing it without blowing bloodlust on every single trash pull.

Some groups you know are doomed from the first pull.

[Sofo1]

No, those rating addons and third party sites are the reason for people doing toxic shit like leaving at the end of an dungeon because they are more interested or scared of their reputation and rating on a third party website rather than they are interested in the reward the game itself gives them by finishing the dungeon.

And I am astonished that people still do not understand that. This website scores are bollocks. More often than not I saw people with "high" scores that were to dumb to handle the most simple stuff in an dungeon. Or just underperforming like crazy even tho their gear and score were "high".

The reason is also simple, those people are either boosted like crazy OR they are used to playing in groups with friends and don't know shit otherwise and aren't able to transfer this experience over to random group play. Because this is a completly different world.

It is fine that you got your "high" rating scores with your group of friends and did some "high" keys etc. good for you. But do not opt in for random groups and then start playing it it like you do with your organized group of friends. That is not how it works. You can not expect that random undergeared/inexperienced people can handle the dungeon the same way your group of friends would handle it. And THAT is the most common problem I see in random groups. And this is the point where the toxic behaviour shit starts and someone leaves the group.

Those scores make people think they are some kind of special player or good at something. Yes you have experience in running dungeons over and over and over again. Most likely with a group of friends. It is unlikly you did "high" keys with random groups. If you want to proof that you are good, play MDI and show it. Playing in random dungeon groups in the game and flexing your third party score rating while you are too dumb to handle yourself in a random group doesn't show anythin of your skill level, it just shows experience WITH a GROUP of FRIENDS.

People are so blinded by these stupid scores. I have players joining a group for a +6 key and the healer was zero score and lower ilvl (but perfectly fine within the ilvl range for that key). People join and are like: "rofl lol lamo, with that healer???!?!111 no chance bye." Even tho we did finish the key +2 no problem at all. And that is not uncommon to happen.
People choose classes/speccs for LOW keys based on MDI meta and "rank lists" of third party websites. For a RANDOM group. It just doen't make any sense at all.

Those scores are boosting the EGO of players like crazy to levels that they think they are god at everything dungeon related. But in fact are too dumb to handle the most easiest stuff. And the REAL "high" scored players wouldn't play in random groups anyway, at least not solo. Guess why that is..

mythic+ itself is a nice idea but the fun with it (as a player who plays with random groups, which should be the majority of players) is destroyed because of rating system like raider.io etc. it sucks the fun out of it because it makes people become wannabe elitists with toxic attitudes. As I said:

When players rather LEAVE a dungeon because they are more scared to have a dungeon NOT IN TIME on their stupid third party website instead of wanting the REWARD that the dungeon could give them... then there is something VERY wrong with this whole situation in general and I really hope Blizzard comes up with an own system for m+ in the future that could adress this problem(s).

Toxicity is nothing that is exclusive to users that use these kinds of addons even if that's what you are trying to make it out to be and these scores are just what achievements are for raids. In most cases these scores/achievements/counters will net you a player with more experience for the specific type of content you try to engage in. Now for all these leavers or toxic behaviour my OPINION is that that is a breed of players from the "new era" of playing games, instant gratification and speed is key in the current games and your playerbase will reflect that. This is not something that spawned from the different counters in game that either measures score or achievements but instead it's a new mentality that can be found across all platform with all games. Now i can agree that these kinds of systems might draw out a couple of bad eggs but in my experience it's far from the majority or even in the lowest procentile of players.

People always like to have a measurment of success in their game and that has always been the case, be that of gearchecks in ogrimmar/Dalaran, Gearscore, Achievements or Raider.IO. And i have to say i've never had a player leaving the dungeon because of "their stupid third party website" would register a depleated run through all of Legion and BFA.

Meta has always existed, people always brought the best classes or demanded the best specs even in the early days of gaming, this is nothing new.

[shyguybman]

To me it just seems like such a weird logic. Like your goal is to get a +18 key, you're in your +17 which is easy on time but because 1 dps is doing low dps you throw that key so that you wasted 30 minutes so that you get a +16 key instead which you most likely have to do at least another 2 keys to get a +18 - assuming you find 2 perfect groups with nobody who is bad because then ofc you have to leave again out of principle.

I mean I'm unemployed and sometimes spend 10 hours on the game in a day but even I would consider it a waste of my time to not just finish that 17 and instead spend an extra 2 hours to deplete - work the key back up again.

Don't worry, it's not only weird logic but stupid.

[nodq]

Toxicity is nothing that is exclusive to users that use these kinds of addons even if that's what you are trying to make it out to be and these scores are just what achievements are for raids. In most cases these scores/achievements/counters will net you a player with more experience for the specific type of content you try to engage in. Now for all these leavers or toxic behaviour my OPINION is that that is a breed of players from the "new era" of playing games, instant gratification and speed is key in the current games and your playerbase will reflect that. This is not something that spawned from the different counters in game that either measures score or achievements but instead it's a new mentality that can be found across all platform with all games. Now i can agree that these kinds of systems might draw out a couple of bad eggs but in my experience it's far from the majority or even in the lowest procentile of players.

People always like to have a measurment of success in their game and that has always been the case, be that of gearchecks in ogrimmar/Dalaran, Gearscore, Achievements or Raider.IO. And i have to say i've never had a player leaving the dungeon because of "their stupid third party website" would register a depleated run through all of Legion and BFA.

Meta has always existed, people always brought the best classes or demanded the best specs even in the early days of gaming, this is nothing new.

From my experience the sad truth is, there are not many "new" players to WoW. And many of these wannabe elitists are oldschool WoW players much older than just 20y. If anything, rating scores like raider.io amplifies the toxic nature of those idiotic people. But not just by minimal margin, no. It raises the toxicity to absurd levels. Levels I never saw in WoW, and I play the game since day1 it released. As I said, when players prefer to leave a dungeon because they are more afraid of having a bad/unfinished dungeon in their ranking list of a third party website instead of wanting the rewards of said dungeon. Then there is something REALLY wrong with it. There is no way to sugercoat it.
Rating system like this raider.io nonsense bring up the most annoying scrubs/wannabe elitists/toxic people out there.

[trapmaster]

We like scores, we do, why don't create a reputation addon who scores if someone is a rampant leaver? just tossing this here, maybe someone can do it , I don't

No.. that just create more bigger toxic community....

[Tziva]

No.. that just create more bigger toxic community....

OpenRaid had a reputation system that mostly worked okay. It wasn't perfect and had a few issues but was largely reliable and but despite using that site a lot both as a raid leader and a pugger, I never saw any evidence that it was contributing to toxicity at all.

However, I don't know if its realistic to implement a system like that as a standalone site. In OpenRaid, rating your groupmates after a run made sense because you were already there looking for your next raid or leaving feedback on the raid leader. A site that solely exists for reputation probably will be the kind of thing people go to when they have a bad experience, which will skew ratings.

... but I still don't know if it will promote bad behaviour. That seems counterintuitive.

[Twdft]

As I said, when players prefer to leave a dungeon because they are more afraid of having a bad/unfinished dungeon in their ranking list of a third party website instead of wanting the rewards of said dungeon. Then there is something REALLY wrong with it.

There are no unfinished dungeons on the r.io website. And I don't understand what's wrong about having some depleted keys in there. If it's like a minute or two overtime... shit happens in runs. And if it's fifteen mins over that just means you are a team player and stick with it.

I can understand aborting runs above +15 because the only reason to run them is getting a +16 key since nobody runs them for gear. But even then I don't see depleted runs as a bad thing to have in the database.

[Zantera]

The whole mentality of "I'd rather screw 4 people over than have a depleted key show on a third party website" just sums up everything that is wrong with a lot of people these days. Personally I wouldn't mind at all if they added some 'rep' type feature to raider.io, maybe a simple "would you run a dungeon with this person again? y/n" but it's also sad that we would need such a feature - because many people only put on the exterior of being a 'nice guy' or 'caring' if they know they got eyes on them and it might come back to bite them in the ass later (in the form of a -rep for example).

However, I will say after doing some HC raid pugging recently on an alt for the profession quest - that pugging in general is just really frustrating and it expands way outside of just m+. It is an old and tired phrase but "find a guild" just makes things soooo much easier. Some pug groups can be nice but it's definitely more of a mixed bag.

[Atrieus]

People are bonkers sometimes, leaving a key if it is IN TIME at the last boss just seems like a very odd choice, but perhaps im missing something.
i dont use Raider IO so perhaps im unaware of some magical math that says X person is bad take Y person

[trapmaster]

If a person leave for no apparent reason or trolling leave then they should get debuff 24 hours no access to mythic+ till debuff expire and debuff is account wide. Too harsh? Well could have thought better than that.

[Freighter]

This is the reason why we unfortunately have rating addons in wow.

Even rating addons don't ensure a good group. I just left a workshop +15 because the healer forgot to repair before we started, so his gear was broken by the 3rd boss. This guy had like 3000 score.

[Temp name]

i'll just go afk in the dungeon then instead of leaving and go do something else...

And how would the system know if it was for "no apparent reason"?

[Marrilaife]

Even rating addons don't ensure a good group. I just left a workshop +15 because the healer forgot to repair before we started, so his gear was broken by the 3rd boss. This guy had like 3000 score.

In both my current and my previous raiding guild I can tell 100% there were / are specific players that 1 pull after Jeeves expires will ask "repair bot anyone?"

[Flay-]

In both my current and my previous raiding guild I can tell 100% there were / are specific players that 1 pull after Jeeves expires will ask "repair bot anyone?"

That's been going on ever since Jeeves came into the game!

[Trend]

The whole mentality of "I'd rather screw 4 people over than have a depleted key show on a third party website" just sums up everything that is wrong with a lot of people these days.

I would not guess that is the general rationale behind people leaving. There are a lot of reasons someone could leave. My experience in two expansions is not consistent with what you assume.

Also, just fyi, it's not just some "third party website", it is Blizzard's data obtained through Blizzard's API that a third party has organized and presented better than Blizzard has themselves. A lot of people who don't like rio try to make it sound like it is some subjective bullshit and it is not.

[Marrilaife]

That's been going on ever since Jeeves came into the game!

Roll engineering, get rid of 1 excuse of people saying "I didn't do anything on this pull, my gear was red!"

P.S. If you can mount in some instances there are 3 repair mounts that can be used too. Underrot for example you can mount despite looking like "indoors" place.

[Zantera]

I would not guess that is the general rationale behind people leaving. There are a lot of reasons someone could leave. My experience in two expansions is not consistent with what you assume.

Also, just fyi, it's not just some "third party website", it is Blizzard's data obtained through Blizzard's API that a third party has organized and presented better than Blizzard has themselves. A lot of people who don't like rio try to make it sound like it is some subjective bullshit and it is not.

Don't get me wrong, I don't feel any dislike towards raider.io. I think it's a fun thing that gives some meaning to any keys above 15 and I treat it as a challenge for myself to see how high I can go - and also useful for when you get 30 dps signing up for a key where you need 1 dps. But I do feel there's a chunk of the community who treats it as a 'end all be all' bible almost, and I think those people usually create a lot of the issues when it comes to pugging.

I think caring about your r.io, wanting to push your own score and so on is all great and in good fun, but at the point you're willing to leave at the last boss because the key just depleted - and you value yourself not getting a depleted key on your profile VS finishing the key for the sake of the group - that's a bit shitty if you ask me. There's definitely the odd cases where the point of the key is to time it - and if it's clear halfway through its not gonna happen then people kinda agree on leaving.

[ID811717]

Fun fact - every time someone just silently quits my group, I normally whisper them to ask what was wrong in a tone that is non-confrontational and non-aggressive. They never respond back.

That's why topics like these are interesting to me. People are willing to share what was wrong for them. At the same time, I cannot project their absolute disaster stories onto my own experience with the quitters. The quitters I see in my own groups and the quitters posting here seem to be from two disjoint sets of players.

[Freighter]

People are bonkers sometimes, leaving a key if it is IN TIME at the last boss just seems like a very odd choice, but perhaps im missing something.
i dont use Raider IO so perhaps im unaware of some magical math that says X person is bad take Y person

I just left a king's rest at the last boss. We wiped twice on the boss because the tank had no clue on what to do. First time he just ran other direction from the spears so he got separated from the group and died, thus we wiped. Second wipe all the dps had died because the tank just used blessing of protection on himself when he went low hp and it was just me and him left and boss was on like 8% hp when we wiped. He divine shields when he went to 30% even though he was in no danger of dying. So the boss goes for me and kills me, the healer. Then he died after the divine shield. I just had enough at that point.