Why is BFA hated ?

[kaminaris]

Tbf, if you didn't know what order the expansions came in, you'd have probably thought that BfA came before Legion. I mean, you would have a bunch of new systems, poorly implemented and almost untested, bland or downright boring - that were lated iterated upon and considerable improved.

• Azerite + necklace < Artifacts
• War campaign < Class campaign
• Generic ship < Class halls
• MoP 2.0 (with old god shenanigans and all) < Burning Legion
• BfA class design < Legion class design (even if it was heavily dependant on artifacts/relics+NLC, which were simply taken away, in most cases).

And silly as the whole WF/TF thing was during Legion and 3/4 of BfA, it never reached the sheer levels of stupidity that is corruption.

That is absolutely false.

Azerite and neckle is far superior to artifacts. Simply because it's not overcomplicated crap that you will miss next expansion, artifact done right.
Both campaigns were mediocre.
Generic ship is far superior than class halls, doesn't force people to have alts, doesnt generate insane amount of gold out of thin air.
Story was mediocre as usual, legion wasn't better than BfA.
BfA class design is far superior than legion because:
1. Not dependent on one item to function
2. Working out of the box
3. Consolidated, balanced and fun

There
BfA is better in every aspect than legion except for corruption.

[spalernTJ]

BFA Had glaring issues during Beta and Alpha. some was addressed - After launch, after a ton of complaints from the community. (The horrible feeling of losing; Tier sets, Legion weapon traits, legion weapon abilities, league legendary effects and only getting azerite traits instead. Shamans and shadow priests were completely fucked and neglected. Mathmatically impossible boss, looking at you Fetid Devourer. Warfronts and islands disappointing. M+ affixes and pulling through walls issues in certain dungeons *Cough* Tol'Dagor)

BFA had glaring issues in 8.1 - Some were adressed later, after a ton of complaints from the community. ( Warfronts and islands still lackluster, though little better. Shadow priests still abandoned, not sure about shamans. At least Dazar'alor was good.)

BFA had glaring issues in 8.2 - Some were addressed later, after a ton of complaints from the community. (Better and less grindy dailies with Mechagon and Nazjatar. Essences introduced with very grindy, repetetive acquisitions and no way to easily obtain on alts, meaning you would have to do stuff like exalted rep grinds on several characters to get certain essences. Somewhat boring, but not altogether bad raid. Warfronts & islands more or less abandoned.)

BFA had glaring issues in 8.3 - Some were adressed after a ton of complaints from the community. (Overpowered Corruption, Coalescing visions and keys having a cap. Made essences more alt friendly. Worst end game boss in history of WoW imo)

BFA feels like it was trying to push a certain playstyle onto people, and the general consensus was that people wanted to play their own way. Aside from Jaina's story, I also think most of BFA's story kinda sucked.

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That is absolutely false.

Azerite and neckle is far superior to artifacts. Simply because it's not overcomplicated crap that you will miss next expansion, artifact done right.
Both campaigns were mediocre.
Generic ship is far superior than class halls, doesn't force people to have alts, doesnt generate insane amount of gold out of thin air.
Story was mediocre as usual, legion wasn't better than BfA.
BfA class design is far superior than legion because:
1. Not dependent on one item to function
2. Working out of the box
3. Consolidated, balanced and fun

There
BfA is better in every aspect than legion except for corruption.

Artifacts were not complicated. And towards the end you just maxed everything out.
Class campaigns were better imo, simply because all classes had their own unique story to explore, upping replayability and giving insight to classes.
Generic ship is generic. It's just a ship. Class halls gives you a sense of class aesthetics from the game's universe.
Legion had a much better narrative, with an actual conclusion and end to character arcs and a kinda cool end scene. Cheesy? Yes. Dragon ball beaming an entity that's been hyped and built up by both Blizzard and the community? Disappointing.
BFA Class design is the worst class design I've seen since Vanilla.
It's not balanced and it's not fun. Most of this is subjective though.

[Soon-TM]

BfA is better in every aspect than legion except for corruption.

Sure buddy. Btw, Blizzard disagrees, since Azerite isn't coming back, not even in a modified form.

[Sallador]

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BFA Had glaring issues during Beta and Alpha. some was addressed - After launch, after a ton of complaints from the community. (The horrible feeling of losing; Tier sets, Legion weapon traits, legion weapon abilities, league legendary effects and only getting azerite traits instead. Shamans and shadow priests were completely fucked and neglected. Mathmatically impossible boss, looking at you Fetid Devourer. Warfronts and islands disappointing. M+ affixes and pulling through walls issues in certain dungeons *Cough* Tol'Dagor)

BFA had glaring issues in 8.1 - Some were adressed later, after a ton of complaints from the community. ( Warfronts and islands still lackluster, though little better. Shadow priests still abandoned, not sure about shamans. At least Dazar'alor was good.)

BFA had glaring issues in 8.2 - Some were addressed later, after a ton of complaints from the community. (Better and less grindy dailies with Mechagon and Nazjatar. Essences introduced with very grindy, repetetive acquisitions and no way to easily obtain on alts, meaning you would have to do stuff like exalted rep grinds on several characters to get certain essences. Somewhat boring, but not altogether bad raid. Warfronts & islands more or less abandoned.)

BFA had glaring issues in 8.3 - Some were adressed after a ton of complaints from the community. (Overpowered Corruption, Coalescing visions and keys having a cap. Made essences more alt friendly. Worst end game boss in history of WoW imo)

BFA feels like it was trying to push a certain playstyle onto people, and the general consensus was that people wanted to play their own way. Aside from Jaina's story, I also think most of BFA's story kinda sucked.

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Artifacts were not complicated. And towards the end you just maxed everything out.
Class campaigns were better imo, simply because all classes had their own unique story to explore, upping replayability and giving insight to classes.
Generic ship is generic. It's just a ship. Class halls gives you a sense of class aesthetics from the game's universe.
Legion had a much better narrative, with an actual conclusion and end to character arcs and a kinda cool end scene. Cheesy? Yes. Dragon ball beaming an entity that's been hyped and built up by both Blizzard and the community? Disappointing.
BFA Class design is the worst class design I've seen since Vanilla.
It's not balanced and it's not fun. Most of this is subjective though.

Pretty much agree with almost everything you wrote except about shadow priests. Seeing as they have been one of the strongest dps specs almost every tier for 2 xpacs, uldir being an exception that they were mid table. Bfa alone they were #1 for BoD, crucible, EP. Do you mean you didn’t like the design?

Edit: claiming bfa class design is the worst you’ve seen since vanilla is one of the dumbest things I’ve ever read, other than that you were on point with a lot.

[kaminaris]

Artifacts were not complicated. And towards the end you just maxed everything out.
Class campaigns were better imo, simply because all classes had their own unique story to explore, upping replayability and giving insight to classes.
Generic ship is generic. It's just a ship. Class halls gives you a sense of class aesthetics from the game's universe.
Legion had a much better narrative, with an actual conclusion and end to character arcs and a kinda cool end scene. Cheesy? Yes. Dragon ball beaming an entity that's been hyped and built up by both Blizzard and the community? Disappointing.
BFA Class design is the worst class design I've seen since Vanilla.
It's not balanced and it's not fun. Most of this is subjective though.

Yes they were complicated because of sheer amount of stats + minors on them plus having 3 stones
Class campaings were just a mediocre story, replayability was biggest flaw, forcing you to have alts to know the story. This is shit design.
And because generic ship doesn't generate tons of gold it's far better.
Legion story and narrative was as mediocre as BfA
BfA class design is the best class design.
It is balanced and fun. More than ever.

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Sure buddy. Btw, Blizzard disagrees, since Azerite isn't coming back, not even in a modified form.

Blizzard agrees. Azerite is not a foundation of classes. Class design is the same in SL.
Campaign is the same for all classes.

SL has much more in common to BfA than Legion.

[spalernTJ]

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Pretty much agree with almost everything you wrote except about shadow priests. Seeing as they have been one of the strongest dps specs almost every tier for 2 xpacs, uldir being an exception that they were mid table. Bfa alone they were #1 for BoD, crucible, EP. Do you mean you didn’t like the design?

Edit: claiming bfa class design is the worst you’ve seen since vanilla is one of the dumbest things I’ve ever read, other than that you were on point with a lot.

When I talk about classes in general, I tend to talk about their design and how they feel to play. Shadow priest was - And still is in a peculiar style, where they feel half assed. Void form is no longer sustainable to the point where the class feels like it's mean to be played around Voidform and keeping it up as long as possible like in Legion. Okay, it's a dot class then, well no cause with voidforms AoE burst and their BiS traits and essences revolving around Voidform and their insane DPS on multi dot cleave fights, they had to nerf that. The mix of Mind flay, a channeled Damage ability and mind blast / Void Bolt's CDs lining up, makes the spec very awkward to play.

My claim of the classes being the worst they've been since Vanilla probably boils down to two things. One being nostalgia, there wasn't all that much to it in Burning Crusade or Wrath of the lich king, sure... But back then, there was still a sense of choice in how you wanted to play. You had meme builds, like the Paladin build where you built up stacks of double attacks when hit. Rogues getting an absolutely mad amount of combo points because your raid members crit and classes felt more like a class than three specs. The second reason might be because of my choice of gameplay. I've always played healers, and they don't really change all that much from expansion to expansion. Legion being the big gamechanger for me with spec identity etc.

[Doffen]

Sure buddy. Btw, Blizzard disagrees, since Azerite isn't coming back, not even in a modified form.

Yep.

Everyone with a sense of quality knows that Legion did both gameplay and systems better than the half-assed versions we got in BfA. They even scrapped Azerite for Essences as main system 10 months ago. Should tell everyone that the system they had planned for BfA was a failure when blizzard themselves said they had to make a bandaid to fix it. Something they didn't have to do in Legion. All they did in Legion was to add stuff into the weapon like NLC making it all streamlined and easy to follow. I mean even the Essence tree is a mini Artifact Weapon system. Another point towards Legion.

When they now seem to add legendary effects from Legion into the legendaries in SL(and effects into specs) while making another Class Hall theme content(Covenant) it's pretty clear they take the stuff from the most popular iteration of the system.

I mean, who the fuck would say Azerite Armor with no special look whatsoever with a neck is more fun to level than epic weapons who change looks with the content and power progression you do? No one I know.

Generic Ship being better than Class Halls that actually gave you replayability for alts that gave you a reason to unlock all the unique weapon models for all your alts, all the specs. Not to mention the story they gave.
LOL

[kaminaris]

Yep.

Everyone with a sense of quality knows that Legion did both gameplay and systems better than the half-assed versions we got in BfA. They even scrapped Azerite for Essences as main system 10 months ago. Should tell everyone that the system they had planned for BfA was a failure when blizzard themselves said they had to make a bandaid to fix it. Something they didn't have to do in Legion. All they did in Legion was to add stuff into the weapon as NLC making it all streamlined and easy to follow.

When they now seem to add legendary effects from Legion into the legendaries in SL(and effects into specs) while making another Class Hall theme content(Covenant) it's pretty clear they take the stuff from the most popular iteration of the system.

I mean, who the fuck would say Azerite Armor with no special look whatsoever with a neck is more fun to level than epic weapons who change looks with the content and power progression you do? No one I know.

Generic Ship being better than Class Halls that actually gave you replayability for alts that gave you a reason to unlock all the unique weapon models for all your alts, all the specs.
LOL

And yet Shadowlands are much more common to BfA than legion.

Legion was overflowed with useless systems that made you farm stuff you didn't even like.

Artifact is proper version how it should have been done.

Bandaid was better than "deeply regretting their design". Basically legiondaries were unfixable garbage.

Covenants are factions, not close to class halls. Much closer to horde/ally factions.

And forcing people to play alts, multiple classes otherwise they won't know even half of story was absolute shit experience.

[TorAndre]

Sure buddy. Btw, Blizzard disagrees, since Azerite isn't coming back, not even in a modified form.

Wasnt your argument that Blizzard doesn't know whst they are doing?

[spalernTJ]

Yes they were complicated because of sheer amount of stats + minors on them plus having 3 stones
Class campaings were just a mediocre story, replayability was biggest flaw, forcing you to have alts to know the story. This is shit design.
And because generic ship doesn't generate tons of gold it's far better.
Legion story and narrative was as mediocre as BfA
BfA class design is the best class design.
It is balanced and fun. More than ever.

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Blizzard agrees. Azerite is not a foundation of classes. Class design is the same in SL.
Campaign is the same for all classes.

SL has much more in common to BfA than Legion.

Everything here is 100% Subjective. I did not find the Legion Artifact weapons and their stats complicated at all. You had 3 main traits you knew you'd be working towards, and whatever stats looked the best on the way was the path I chose. Meanwhile, Azerite traits caused an insane influx in the need of simming ger to find what was best.

Giving you something new to experience when you level a new character / Alt [B]is what replayability is/B].

Order Hall did not give you tons of gold. That was the mission table in Warlords of Draenor. It was toned down in Legion Order Halls and further in BFA. Where the mission table is, does not have a single effect on "Generic Ship" or "Order Halls" were better. I think Order halls were better still though, because of variety and class insight.

Legion story were grander, had more interesting cinematics, more interesting creatures, more interesting villains, more interesting bosses, more fun dungeons, and did not ruin characters like they did with Sylvanas.

BFA class design is not the best design. It's very cookie cutter, most DPS classes boils down to; Generate resource, spend resource. Homoginized to a point where when I try a new class, 80% of the time I Can do the exact same keybinds and use more or less the exact same rotation.

It is far from balanced, and far from fun. This one goes out to corruption primarily though. As a healer main, I don't have any healing-specific corruptions outside of generic stat sticks and CDR reductions. Yes, I can run meme-tentacles, gushing wounds and Twilight devastation to boost my DPS, but there's nothing fun for healers to play with - Except for the fact that every negative effect corruption has, is a straight punishment to healers.

[regardoz]

I will make this on only 3 points of BFA shitness
1- classes are fun at all
2- not alt friendly because of endless farming specially the stupid cloak to lvl 12 for all your characters
3- as pvper the game turned on trinket game as you can never win in pvp if you dont have pve trinkets from raid so basically you need essences that takes long to get, cloak lvl 12 and trinkets from raid or mythics...
Its really stupid that Classic is way easier to gear than this boring gameplay expansion

[spalernTJ]

To me this is an incredibly huge deal. Character progression is basically on rails. Do your daily vision, your weekly assaults, dailies for essences, the war campaign is required, your weekly m+, etc. There's all this... shit that you do and you can't really choose to only do what you like because there's no catchup or alternate route to getting the rewards - it's kind of all or nothing. Wow has never been this structured.

Freaking leveling doesn't even feel like an exploratory adventure any more because I'm mostly focused on making sure I get the right quests done for the flying achieve and the explore zones achieve too - oh and there's the war campaign quests popping up periodically that you might as well do while leveling so keep an eye out for those too. It's just really freaking annoying. I want to just log on and play what I like, explore... this game doesn't support that until you wade through a shitstorm first.

That is pretty on point. Yes, the entirety of BFA has been on rails. You have had no real choice in what you want to do if you want to get things done. Want flying? You have to do all these specific things in order to do so, do you like flying? Too bad, you'll have to do these specific things to get it. Do you want these essences so you can play how you want? Well you have to do these specific things first to get them. I still don't have the essence I want most of all, because it's gated behind PvP. I hate PvP, I haven't got it and I'm not going to, which is too bad because I wanted it. It was the Artifice of Time, where my heals has a chance of giving haste to those I heal. It has a very supportish, niche feel which I love... Alas, I ain't getting it, good or bad.

The thing I've noticed is that Blizzard doesn't want to be very inventive, but they don't want to copy good features from others anymore either, at least it feels that way. The way FF XIV handles flying for example, I think is very fair. You have to do the area's main story, and you essentially have to explore the map, then you can fly in that area. They even tie it in with in-game reasoning, as you have to learn and understand the zone's layout and win currents to fly, not the best reason in the world, but it's something.

[kaminaris]

Everything here is 100% Subjective. I did not find the Legion Artifact weapons and their stats complicated at all. You had 3 main traits you knew you'd be working towards, and whatever stats looked the best on the way was the path I chose. Meanwhile, Azerite traits caused an insane influx in the need of simming ger to find what was best.

How can you say legion artifact was not overcomplicated? Just look at the rest of your gear, AT BEST it had:
Stats
Talent-as-stat (tier sets or legiondaries)
and that's it.

While artifact had gazilion of non-choice traits that acted as small talents/trinkets, 3 slots for relics, crucible.

Compared to the rest of the gear it was really overly complex. You are talking about choice, yes there was no choice. But legion artifact made up for like 40% of your entire class, design wise. And 60% of your output.

Giving you something new to experience when you level a new character / Alt [B]is what replayability is/B].

And that is wrong. Because you are focing players to play classes they don't like.

Order Hall did not give you tons of gold. That was the mission table in Warlords of Draenor. It was toned down in Legion Order Halls and further in BFA. Where the mission table is, does not have a single effect on "Generic Ship" or "Order Halls" were better. I think Order halls were better still though, because of variety and class insight.

Yes they did give you tons of gold. I made 2.2M of gold passively per month (without doing world quests because some order halls could sustain themselves due to having instant WQ complete trait), with 12 max level characters.

In BfA, gold missions are literally waste of gold.

Legion story were grander, had more interesting cinematics, more interesting creatures, more interesting villains, more interesting bosses, more fun dungeons, and did not ruin characters like they did with Sylvanas.

Legion story was overpuffed, not interesting at all and they did ruin characters like voljin, varian. Raid bosses were at the same level as as BfA except for Battle of Dazaralor which was best raid I did since MoP. Dungeons were boring meatgrinders.

BFA class design is not the best design. It's very cookie cutter, most DPS classes boils down to; Generate resource, spend resource. Homoginized to a point where when I try a new class, 80% of the time I Can do the exact same keybinds and use more or less the exact same rotation.

I don't think you understand what homogenzed means. Homogenized means every class has everything, like MoP. Not a single class was unique back then.

It is far from balanced, and far from fun. This one goes out to corruption primarily though. As a healer main, I don't have any healing-specific corruptions outside of generic stat sticks and CDR reductions. Yes, I can run meme-tentacles, gushing wounds and Twilight devastation to boost my DPS, but there's nothing fun for healers to play with - Except for the fact that every negative effect corruption has, is a straight punishment to healers.

Oh it is balanced, more than ever, classes are within 15% of each other, unlike mop where difference between worst and best spec was 100%.
And yes, you can go fun with dps corruptions if needed. It's still a choice you didn't even had back then.
You just used what guides or logs did tell you to.

[Soon-TM]

Wasnt your argument that Blizzard doesn't know whst they are doing?

You must be mistaking me for someone else.

[Traveler Voltin]

HoA systems
lore destruction
titanforging
removal of tier sets

[spalernTJ]

How can you say legion artifact was not overcomplicated? Just look at the rest of your gear, AT BEST it had:
Stats
Talent-as-stat (tier sets or legiondaries)
and that's it.

While artifact had gazilion of non-choice traits that acted as small talents/trinkets, 3 slots for relics, crucible.

Compared to the rest of the gear it was really overly complex. You are talking about choice, yes there was no choice. But legion artifact made up for like 40% of your entire class, design wise. And 60% of your output.



And that is wrong. Because you are focing players to play classes they don't like.



Yes they did give you tons of gold. I made 2.2M of gold passively per month (without doing world quests because some order halls could sustain themselves due to having instant WQ complete trait), with 12 max level characters.

In BfA, gold missions are literally waste of gold.



Legion story was overpuffed, not interesting at all and they did ruin characters like voljin, varian. Raid bosses were at the same level as as BfA except for Battle of Dazaralor which was best raid I did since MoP. Dungeons were boring meatgrinders.


I don't think you understand what homogenzed means. Homogenized means every class has everything, like MoP. Not a single class was unique back then.



Oh it is balanced, more than ever, classes are within 15% of each other, unlike mop where difference between worst and best spec was 100%.
And yes, you can go fun with dps corruptions if needed. It's still a choice you didn't even had back then.
You just used what guides or logs did tell you to.

I'm saying they're not complicated because I never found them complicated? Going from point A to B to C to D in a talent-tree is not complicated or hard. For relics, you either had a trait or two you liked, and you went for them, or your looked up what was best and you went for those. How is that complicated?

Azerite traits are not complicated either, but at least Artifact traits were consistent. You knew what you would get, you knew what you had, and once you had it all, you knew that was it. For Azerite traits, you have 3 types Pieces of gear, with predetermined traits on them, but acquiring them was - And still is tedious as hell. Relics weren't as powerful as Traits are, and 2 of my best pieces happen to be from N'zoth and Carapace, which means I literally have to do the hardest content the game currently offer, to get the best version of something that's on other pieces of gear. But then you also have to question how many ILvLs your traits are worth, your mains, your sub traits... Azerite is definitely the more complicated than the two.


Players are not forced to play classes they don't like. The Order Halls were centered around the classes, their aesthetics, their playstyles and their stories... If you don't like the class, why would you want to do their order hall story?


Congratulations, you made a lot of gold with the mission table. This is still a mission table issue, and not a location issue. Who cares though? BFA was what took away all value gold had, not Legion.


They did not ruin characters like Vol'jin and Varian. They killed them off, which is something entirely different from ruining characters like what they did with Sylvanas, who is now portrayed as either a Mary Sue because she is too powerful and has an answer to everything, while essentially being a dead "Babe" for a certain male and female demographic, or too emotional to the point where she burns down Tel'drassil, killing men, women and children of all ages, civilians as well as soldiers because... Who the fuck knows... And then she throws away her position as Warchief for no reason other than plot enforcement. The death of Varian and Vol'jin didn't feel justified imo, it was for shock value (Varian) and plot force (Vol'Jin) And to keep balance between the player base.



The Legion story overall had to be stuffed, and I don't think they overplayed it at all. Fighting the Legion head-on, as one of the biggest and longest standing opponents we as players have ever had was huge, and they had to put in as much as they could to try and live up to expactations.



Sure, classes are completely balanced. That's why you can have 30 Tanks, without healers or DPS, blasting through Heroic Ny'alotha without any problems. That's why Druid and Paladin tanks are amongst the most played tanks currently. That's why Demon Hunters and Monks are essentially mandator in raid (God forbid you bring a Windwalker though) And that's why holy priests are super popular in Mythic+.

[Verzen]

Hello.

Why is BFA so hated ? Sometimes more than WOD.

Lack of real focus in the storyline.

We go kill G'huun who is escaping (OLD GOD)

We raid a horde area to kill the boss.

We kill Azshara

We kill Nzoth

Each one of those tbh deserved their own expansion as a whole.

Plus, the azerite system sucks. I dislike the azerite armor mechanics. It's boring.

The general atmosphere and feel also didn't jive with me. I like darker expansions. Shadowlands looks like a return to form so I am stoked about that.

[kaminaris]

I'm saying they're not complicated because I never found them complicated? Going from point A to B to C to D in a talent-tree is not complicated or hard. For relics, you either had a trait or two you liked, and you went for them, or your looked up what was best and you went for those. How is that complicated?

You don't understand it. Choice and path of upgrade is not complexity.
Complexity is having like a 40 mini talent/trinkets clumped together as a single item.

To make better analogy:
Normal items are like bicycle without any gear shifts, just a single speed.
Legion artifact is like motorcycle with tons of digital stuff built in.

That is what complexity is.
And Neck is like modern bicycle with good couple of gears.

Azerite traits are not complicated either, but at least Artifact traits were consistent. You knew what you would get, you knew what you had, and once you had it all, you knew that was it. For Azerite traits, you have 3 types Pieces of gear, with predetermined traits on them, but acquiring them was - And still is tedious as hell. Relics weren't as powerful as Traits are, and 2 of my best pieces happen to be from N'zoth and Carapace, which means I literally have to do the hardest content the game currently offer, to get the best version of something that's on other pieces of gear. But then you also have to question how many ILvLs your traits are worth, your mains, your sub traits... Azerite is definitely the more complicated than the two.

Azerite gear is simply a customizable tier sets with a vendor. That's it. If you forget that neck exists, and look just at azerite gear you will get simply a customizable-tier-set.

Players are not forced to play classes they don't like. The Order Halls were centered around the classes, their aesthetics, their playstyles and their stories... If you don't like the class, why would you want to do their order hall story?

Let me see, maybe because they couldn't know like more than half of expansion story without doing it?
Maybe because it was free millions of gold handed out for every 6 alts you had?

Congratulations, you made a lot of gold with the mission table. This is still a mission table issue, and not a location issue. Who cares though? BFA was what took away all value gold had, not Legion.

Who cares about location if you are not going to visit it? There was almost no reason to visit class hall besides doing free gold. And there is no reason to visit ship unless you plan to transport to other continent.

They did not ruin characters like Vol'jin and Varian. They killed them off, which is something entirely different from ruining characters like what they did with Sylvanas, who is now portrayed as either a Mary Sue because she is too powerful and has an answer to everything, while essentially being a dead "Babe" for a certain male and female demographic, or too emotional to the point where she burns down Tel'drassil, killing men, women and children of all ages, civilians as well as soldiers because... Who the fuck knows... And then she throws away her position as Warchief for no reason other than plot enforcement. The death of Varian and Vol'jin didn't feel justified imo, it was for shock value (Varian) and plot force (Vol'Jin) And to keep balance between the player base.

Yes they did ruin them both. Voljin death was fucking forced even after all that "explanation" they gave us. It was ruined, rushed. Those characters had so much potential.

The Legion story overall had to be stuffed, and I don't think they overplayed it at all. Fighting the Legion head-on, as one of the biggest and longest standing opponents we as players have ever had was huge, and they had to put in as much as they could to try and live up to expactations.

Oh come on, who are you trying to kid? One time we go alternative timeline and next thing we know we are defeating sergaras while he struck his gigantic sword into azeroth? It was overpuffed, rushed and inconsequential. Story from WoD till now is simply stupid.

Sure, classes are completely balanced. That's why you can have 30 Tanks, without healers or DPS, blasting through Heroic Ny'alotha without any problems. That's why Druid and Paladin tanks are amongst the most played tanks currently. That's why Demon Hunters and Monks are essentially mandator in raid (God forbid you bring a Windwalker though) And that's why holy priests are super popular in Mythic+.

Druid and paladin tanks are most played? lol no. M+ first page is warrior, monk, paladin, druid.
Healers are druid, paladins, priests

You think that previous expansions were better in terms of class stacking? Hell no. People always tend to take best performing classes. And yet we still see all specs clearing all content. That is issue with people, not with class design.

[spalernTJ]

You don't understand it. Choice and path of upgrade is not complexity.
Complexity is having like a 40 mini talent/trinkets clumped together as a single item.

To make better analogy:
Normal items are like bicycle without any gear shifts, just a single speed.
Legion artifact is like motorcycle with tons of digital stuff built in.

That is what complexity is.
And Neck is like modern bicycle with good couple of gears.


Azerite gear is simply a customizable tier sets with a vendor. That's it. If you forget that neck exists, and look just at azerite gear you will get simply a customizable-tier-set.

It's really not though... There's no complexity involved with the Azerite traits at all. Each spec gets 2 choices in the outer rings on average. Inner rings are usually neutral or role dependent. That's not complexity, because it's not complex. And I'm not saying Artifact weapons were complex either. None of them were. But of the two, I simply don't agree that Azerite Traits are more complicated than the Artifact weapons, primarily because of the effects both bring to the table.

As far as understanding their systems, they're both really simple, don't try and make it sound like Azerite traits are this super sophisticated system that was crafted through genius ingenuity. Outside of Glimmer paladins, I can't think of any spec or class off the top of my head who had a significatn gameplay change because of these traits. At least the Artifact weapons gave you a whole new ability, and made many effects you could somewhat play around.

If you like stat sticks, that's fine, that's your opinion, but I find Azerite to be exceedingly simple and boring, both as a system and as individual effects.

Let me see, maybe because they couldn't know like more than half of expansion story without doing it?
Maybe because it was free millions of gold handed out for every 6 alts you had?

You did not need to do the Order Hall stories to know half the expansions over arching plot at all. You needed to do Suramar, Broken Shore and Argus. If you wanted to abuse the Mission table, but didn't like other classes, nothing stopped you from leveling more of your favored classes.

Do you wanna know what actually did force this though? BFA did. I played Alliance throughout BFA, did a little bit of horde in 8.3 But for the most part just played Alliance. Stepping into Uldir, I knew absolutely jack shit about the story, why we were there, who the bosses were, why first boss had low HP. We knew NoThInG. We would have to level a HORDE character, which means you can't play with your friends, you can't play with your guild and you probably don't know anyone. That alone makes the story structure of BFA worse than Legion.

Who cares about location if you are not going to visit it? There was almost no reason to visit class hall besides doing free gold. And there is no reason to visit ship unless you plan to transport to other continent.

Now, this is going to be different from server to server and class to class. But I actually enjoyed hanging out with my fellow priests and druids in my order Halls. From guildies to strangers, friends to foes. There were always lots of people, I had my mission table, I had people I chatted with, I did the quest lines. Just because all you did was abuse mission table, doesn't mean other people didn't have things they enjoyed doing in there. What's there to do on our boats? Nothing. The Boat is just there to serve as an empty game mechanic of Mission table and Transport.

Yes they did ruin them both. Voljin death was fucking forced even after all that "explanation" they gave us. It was ruined, rushed. Those characters had so much potential.

Once again, they did not ruin his character. They did not turn him into a sudden villain, they did not betray his general being as a character. Neither did they do that with Varian. As I mentioned already, Vol'jin was killed to enforce the Sylvanas plotline. It was a wasted character, in that he was used as a stepping stone for another story. And Varian was used as a balance to Vol'jin's death and shock value. At least Varian went out a hero. Again, they didn't ruin the characters.


Oh come on, who are you trying to kid? One time we go alternative timeline and next thing we know we are defeating sergaras while he struck his gigantic sword into azeroth? It was overpuffed, rushed and inconsequential. Story from WoD till now is simply stupid.[/QUOTE]

Warlords of Draenor had an interesting plot, interesting characters and a very pleasant leveling experience. The story was good. What killed WoD was Blizzard's butchering of the narrative and middle patch. If they hadn't rushed the expansion, we would've had a good story. As far as Legion goes, I highly disliked the leveling experience and the disconnected zones, just like BFA.

The plot of BFA though is so disconnected and has practically nothing holding it together. In Legion, we knew we had one goal, to push back The Legion. In BFA? We went in with a story of war between Horde and Alliance, that shit went no-where. We then fucked around in Nazjatar with Azshara... We freed N'zoth... Okay... Then we went and insta-killed him with the Neck-mcguffin. What happened to the war? Well... Sylvanas burned down Teldrasil, the home of the Night Elves, killed who knows how many innocent people, but it's okay... Tyrande and Malfurion got their revenge when they lost three wardens and killed one Val'kyr, and then Sylvanas went awol.

Druid and paladin tanks are most played? lol no. M+ first page is warrior, monk, paladin, druid.
Healers are druid, paladins, priests

Druid and Pala was sarcastic. I haven't seen any of them in ages. We personally use Monk and Death knight in our raid team, and anyone I personally know only plays Monk, death knight and Warrior. As for healers, yes... Druid, paladin and priest... But let's be honest, it's more like... Druids, paladins >>> Disc priest >>>>>>>>> The rest.

You think that previous expansions were better in terms of class stacking? Hell no. People always tend to take best performing classes. And yet we still see all specs clearing all content. That is issue with people, not with class design.

No, I do not think previous expansions were better in that regard. I do however believe some classes are heavily favored for content like mythic plus than others, going beyond just "Oh this is just a bit more optimal." From personal experience, playing Holy Priest between 15-22+ is abyssmal. We have next to no utility, we can't heal while we move and we can't do any decent damage while healing. Guess who can; Druids because of hot playstyle, Paladins because of Glimmer and Disc because Disc. Also, you need a battle res just in case, that's Druid > Any other healer. Shroud is also insane so that's just Rogue>. There's also Bloodlust / Hero, though you can have a more gimped version through drums.

Seeing specs clearing all content does not mean that classes and specs are balanced at all. Specs performance will vary heavily, purely because of their design.

[Semyaz]

Hello.

Why is BFA so hated ? Sometimes more than WOD.

RNG ontop of RNG sucking off RnJesus

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Hello.

Why is BFA so hated ? Sometimes more than WOD.

Class specs nerfed to oblivion

RIP Sub

Unviable specs

RIP frost/arcane. Think feral in here too