PvP is the sole reason why Gameplay Customization still exists in this game. Wrong?

[Kumorii]

I dont care about "before" i care about the future...

But what in the hell is your opinion?

WoW talents evolved into THIS "a way to optimize on every pull and switching on the fly"
It evolved into THIS because it follows a min max mentality and goes against the RPG feeling of things.

You need to have an opinion on this...or you want to remain neutral?

I can't say it any more clear. There will ALWAYS be an optimal choice. That's not an opinion.
WoW hasn't evolved into it, ALL games have OPTIMAL paths by nature, including wow. Including your favorite game or game that you suggest doesn't. Trust me, it has an optimal way to play as well. Players will ALWAYS seek and find the OPTIMAL choice. You can't design around that.

afaik, your argument is that there is an optimal way to play and thus there exist no customization. Well, then no game has any customization whatsoever. It's not me arguing that customization is an illusion, it's yours, you just don't know it.

[Big Thanks]

I can't say it any more clear. There will ALWAYS be an optimal choice. That's not an opinion.
WoW hasn't evolved into it, ALL games have OPTIMAL paths by nature, including wow. Including your favorite game or game that you suggest doesn't. Trust me, it has an optimal way to play as well. Players will ALWAYS seek and find the OPTIMAL choice. You can't design around that.

afaik, your argument is that there is an optimal way to play and thus there exist no customization. Well, then no game has any customization whatsoever. It's not me arguing that customization is an illusion, it's yours, you just don't know it.

Your lack of experience is showing with PvP games. Any PvP brother can tell There arent many here though

There is no optimal way to play Tekken or Street Fighter.
Any fighting game expert knows this

What you could say is that the "gameplay" of WoW is so 2D and simplistic, there will always be an optimal way because of it.

------------

@Gaidax
Did you just make a post in fear i would change world of warcraft and would ruin your life?
Do you think i am a God or something?

[Th3Scourge]

@Th3Scourge @Kumorii

Your posts are EXACTLY why im worried.

You are saying "there is always an optimal way to play" AND you are NOT critiquing the current gameplay customization WoW evolved into.

So you are supporting "Gameplay customization is a lie and doesnt exist and should be eradicated"?

What is your opinion?

There is always an optimal way to play any RPG and just about every other game in existence. This will be true as long as mathematics is a thing. It just so happens that there are multiple optimal builds for some specs, depending on fights. In some cases, more than ever before.

You question is a weak strawman argument

[Big Thanks]

There is always an optimal way to play any RPG and just about every other game in existence. This will be true as long as mathematics is a thing. It just so happens that there are multiple optimal builds for some specs, depending on fights. In some cases, more than ever before.

Didnt you just contradicted yourself instantly here?

The gimmick of changing talents on the fly is not what makes RPG customziation IMO

[Saltysquidoon]

Mathematically best options exist for every decision, PvP or not, but currently we do not have the means to see that math and we will probably never live to see it. So for now it is indeed all about the feel. I'm playing league and I feel like tanking up will help me win, i'm playing CS and I like the deagle so I buy it, i'm playing a fighting game and I feel like going for a certain mixup. All the decisions are based on me and my playstyle, not a sim which tells me exactly what to do.

You are drawing a really artificial distinction here where there is none, simply not having to tools to articulate something doesn't mean it isn't there. First of all 'feel' is just the first step to quantification, have you ever seen a lol pro look at patch notes and say X is shit now and be right? There are literally people who get paid real human money to know the optimal choices in games like lol, from players to analysts to coaches. Even usage statistics are a form of quantification, quantification via quorum

Simply because when you play pvp you only rely on your feeling doesn't mean there wasn't a pest option and that option is unknowable. You're needlessly conflating the higher amount of variance innate to pvp as some infinity of variables. To relate this back to lol; If you get behind as darius you might build cleaver or a defensive item first and modify your build as the game evolves, it doesn't mean you're going to build a lost chapter out of nowhere. There's a very basic obvious mathematic reason for this even if some or most players wouldn't do that based on 'feel'.

Personally if I played SV I would take bandage all the time. 25 sec CD lines up nicely with freezing trap, guaranteeing you a 30% heal in 1v1 situations (which is my preferred style of PvP). This is the difference between your playstyle and mine.

And maybe bandage mathematically is the best option in 1v1? The only reason we don't know is because the game's not balanced around 1v1 so no one bothers to make databases about it showing usage statistics.
I'm sure if 1v1 duels became the number one esport on earth it wouldn't take long to figure it out.

[Kumorii]

Your lack of experience is showing with PvP games. Any PvP brother can tell There arent many here though

There is no optimal way to play Tekken or Street Fighter.
Any fighting game expert knows this

What you could say is that the "gameplay" of WoW is so 2D and simplistic, there will always be an optimal way because of it.

Ofc there is an optimal way to play Tekken. There are certain moves for every character which are deemed to be good or even god tier, while some moves are deemed to be useless and should never be used. The way to counter a character is to know their strengths and use proper counters and punishes. If you do the wrong punishes or defensive moves you lose, ergo it's not an optimal way to play, while using proper counter moves are the optimal one.

Then we get to combos. Instantly when a new character is arriving people theorise and look for the max punish combos that exists. Those are the OPTIMAL combos and ways to play when it comes to juggling. Then you have different optimal moves depending on if they wall splat, wall bounce. There are many variables and split second decisions, doesn't change the fact that there are an optimal choice in any given situation.

I punish someone. I can either do an easy combo for guaranteed damage or a harder combo for more damage. Which is optimal? If I can do the harder combo, the harder combo is obviously the optimal one. If I can't then probably the easier combo is more optimal etc etc...

This is why it's so hard to talk with you. You instantly start attacking that the other person "don't know what they are talking about" while you provide 0 arguments for your case. You didn't even provide an argument that demonstrates that there is no optimal way to play... just that "experts" know this.
Argue for your case. Just once instead of attacking and dismissing someone.

[Big Thanks]

Ofc there is an optimal way to play Tekken. There are certain moves for every character which are deemed to be good or even god tier, while some moves are deemed to be useless and should never be used. The way to counter a character is to know their strengths and use proper counters and punishes. If you do the wrong punishes or defensive moves you lose, ergo it's not an optimal way to play, while using proper counter moves are the optimal one.

Then we get to combos. Instantly when a new character is arriving people theorise and look for the max punish combos that exists. Those are the OPTIMAL combos and ways to play when it comes to juggling. Then you have different optimal moves depending on if they wall splat, wall bounce. There are many variables and split second decisions, doesn't change the fact that there are an optimal choice in any given situation.

I punish someone. I can either do an easy combo for guaranteed damage or a harder combo for more damage. Which is optimal? If I can do the harder combo, the harder combo is obviously the optimal one. If I can't then probably the easier combo is more optimal etc etc...

This is why it's so hard to talk with you. You instantly start attacking that the other person "don't know what they are talking about" while you provide 0 arguments for your case. You didn't even provide an argument that demonstrates that there is no optimal way to play... just that "experts" know this.
Argue for your case. Just once instead of attacking and dismissing someone.

Ofcourse there are basic rules but there is never an optimal way to defeat your opponent.
What you did there was explain the "combo system" basics and other basic rules to winning

If there was an optimal way, your oponent would always be predictable and would always lose.

There is no optimal moment to throw a kick
Nor an optimal moment to throw a punch
Nor an optimal moment to anything.

IF there was...all games would be the same.

[Th3Scourge]

Didnt you just contradicted yourself instantly here?

The gimmick of changing talents on the fly is not what makes RPG customziation IMO

talents, specs, gear, abilities.

Yeah, pretty sure thats customisation.

[Kumorii]

Ofcourse there are basic rules but there is never an optimal way to defeat your opponent.
What you did there was explain the "combo system" basics and other basic rules to winning

If there was an optimal way, your oponent would always be predictable and would always lose.

There is no optimal moment to throw a kick
Nor an optimal moment to throw a punch
Nor an optimal moment to anything.

IF there was...all games would be the same.

No. Even against any player there is an optimal way to defeat them. Because they have certain weaknesses and strength and thus they can be exploited. Which is optimal way to play.

Optimal doesn't mean rigid. Optimal doesn't mean you play the same constantly. That's not what optimal means. It's means the best choice in a given situation. In which there is always an optimal choice.

[Big Thanks]

No. Even against any player there is an optimal way to defeat them. Because they have certain weaknesses and strength and thus they can be exploited. Which is optimal way to play.

Optimal doesn't mean rigid. Optimal doesn't mean you play the same constantly. That's not what optimal means. It's means the best choice in a given situation. In which there is always an optimal choice.

This mentality goes against the "Art-form" of customization.
I despise it and is a cancer to the RPG genre.

Covenants agree with me......and many people are trying to shut it down because they believe this crap of "optimal".

I despise it and i will spit on the grave of anyone named "optimal" (>_<)

[Mosha]

I haven't jumped into retail super deep in awhile but op is certainly correct to a certain extent here.

In every single version of the game, during every raid tier, for pve there was *the* spec for your classes role. There is really no wiggle room. But for pvp there has always been 'play-styles' that could shape how you want to play. Sure, some might be better in certain situations or a certain spec may be overall better in certain hands but it all just depended on your play-style.

There really is no play-style in pve.... for example, mages in tbc... whether you went fire, frost, or arcane, there is a specific spec you need to go and a certain rotation you need to follow. Full stop. Nothing more to add. But if you were pvping...well do you want to go pom pyro to ass blast someone in 2 seconds? Fire for that massive damage and nice control with dragons breath? Or full deep frost for bgs? Or go frost and arcane to get imp CS? There was way more flexibility with your spec. Christ even just looking at priests in pvp. Some disc priests didn't even go deep enough to get PS and went to into the shadow tree for silence to make a crazy good 2s comp.

I understand what OP is saying completely, and it makes sense. I feel like a lot of pve heros are going to be upset though.

[Kumorii]

This mentality goes against the "Art-form" of customization.
I despise it and is a cancer to the RPG genre.

Covenants agree with me......and many people are trying to shut it down because they believe this crap of "optimal".

I despise it and i will spit on the grave of anyone named "optimal" (>_<)

Care to argue for why? Optimal ways to play exists, as I've mentioned, in all games. Are you saying no game has customization?

If so what is customization to you?

[arkanon]

I haven't jumped into retail super deep in awhile but op is certainly correct to a certain extent here.

In every single version of the game, during every raid tier, for pve there was *the* spec for your classes role. There is really no wiggle room. But for pvp there has always been 'play-styles' that could shape how you want to play. Sure, some might be better in certain situations or a certain spec may be overall better in certain hands but it all just depended on your play-style.

There really is no play-style in pve.... for example, mages in tbc... whether you went fire, frost, or arcane, there is a specific spec you need to go and a certain rotation you need to follow. Full stop. Nothing more to add. But if you were pvping...well do you want to go pom pyro to ass blast someone in 2 seconds? Fire for that massive damage and nice control with dragons breath? Or full deep frost for bgs? Or go frost and arcane to get imp CS? There was way more flexibility with your spec. Christ even just looking at priests in pvp. Some disc priests didn't even go deep enough to get PS and went to into the shadow tree for silence to make a crazy good 2s comp.

I understand what OP is saying completely, and it makes sense. I feel like a lot of pve heros are going to be upset though.

I LOVE how your "proof" is outdated by over a decade. Good stuff.

[Big Thanks]

I haven't jumped into retail super deep in awhile but op is certainly correct to a certain extent here.

In every single version of the game, during every raid tier, for pve there was *the* spec for your classes role. There is really no wiggle room. But for pvp there has always been 'play-styles' that could shape how you want to play. Sure, some might be better in certain situations or a certain spec may be overall better in certain hands but it all just depended on your play-style.

There really is no play-style in pve.... for example, mages in tbc... whether you went fire, frost, or arcane, there is a specific spec you need to go and a certain rotation you need to follow. Full stop. Nothing more to add. But if you were pvping...well do you want to go pom pyro to ass blast someone in 2 seconds? Fire for that massive damage and nice control with dragons breath? Or full deep frost for bgs? Or go frost and arcane to get imp CS? There was way more flexibility with your spec. Christ even just looking at priests in pvp. Some disc priests didn't even go deep enough to get PS and went to into the shadow tree for silence to make a crazy good 2s comp.

I understand what OP is saying completely, and it makes sense. I feel like a lot of pve heros are going to be upset though.

I love you

I dont believe what i said is an irrefutable truth.
But gladly you understand where im coming from.

Its just a critique

[arkanon]

This mentality goes against the "Art-form" of customization.
I despise it and is a cancer to the RPG genre.

Covenants agree with me......and many people are trying to shut it down because they believe this crap of "optimal".

I despise it and i will spit on the grave of anyone named "optimal" (>_<)

And yet you flat out refuse to accept that optimal is the very definition of customisation, as mentioned in the post you refuse to reply to.

[Big Thanks]

Care to argue for why? Optimal ways to play exists, as I've mentioned, in all games. Are you saying no game has customization?

If so what is customization to you?

Customization to me is falling in love with "the way" to play the "spec".

You fall in love with "how" it plays out and not by performance.

support
utility
self healing
off healing
main healing
defensives
DPS
burst
immunity frames
poison and dots
run away style
balls deep style
go in go out style (this is turning sexual, lol)

Endless possibilities...and falling in love for one of those or a hybrid way...not because is optimal but because you like the "invisible thing" that is the "feel" on how it plays out.

[Mosha]

I LOVE how your "proof" is outdated by over a decade. Good stuff.

I don't think I said it was 'proof' as much as it was an example. I'm sure if I dove into retails meta right now I could find extremely similar outcomes. Unless you're suggesting in pve right now that there isn't a 'best' spec for a certain class with 'best' talents for a certain fight, and rotations in pve have somehow become more unique instead of a set rotation you follow. Has it? Honest question

[arkanon]

I don't think I said it was 'proof' as much as it was an example. I'm sure if I dove into retails meta right now I could find extremely similar outcomes. Unless you're suggesting in pve right now that there isn't a 'best' spec for a certain class with 'best' talents for a certain fight, and rotations in pve have somehow become more unique instead of a set rotation you follow. Has it? Honest question

There absolutely is best specs for certain encounters, certain content types, and certain group compositions. That's literally what customisation is.

[Kumorii]

Customization to me is falling in love with "the way" to play the "spec".

You fall in love with "how" it plays out and not by performance.

support
utility
self healing
off healing
main healing
defensives
DPS
burst
immunity frames
poison and dots
run away style
balls deep style
go in go out style (this is turning sexual, lol)

Endless possibilities...and falling in love for one of those or a hybrid way...not because is optimal but because you like the "invisible thing" that is the "feel" on how it plays out.

Yeah, that's a player choice. You either go for what you want to play or what's optimal. Doesn't deny the fact that there always will be an optimal way to play.

So it's as it always has been. I don't understand what's different now. It's the exact same. You got plenty of choices to make. It's up to you if you want to be optimal or not.

[Mosha]

Care to argue for why? Optimal ways to play exists, as I've mentioned, in all games. Are you saying no game has customization?

If so what is customization to you?

Not OP but I think I can help him explain because I think I get what he is saying.

In pvp you have a unique playstyle, and you can build you spec around that. In pve, you don't really have an option for a playstyle, you choose the best spec and you learn your rotation and you follow that rotation.

In pvp if you are a defensive player you can build your characters spec around this and choose talents that compliment this, if you are aggressive you can do that same. This option isn't really realistic in pve.

- - - Updated - - -

There absolutely is best specs for certain encounters, certain content types, and certain group compositions. That's literally what customisation is.

Ok and I get that you have to option to change your spec according to those scenarios, but this is what he means by the 'illusion' of choice. If you are pveing and you know whats best in the certain situation then you really don't have a choice do you? You know what you are going to pick whether you like it or not because it's the best.

In pvp, one option may be better for you while a different option is better for someone else, because you two could be playing differently.