How can loot even work without warforging/similar systems?

[shuubu]

Less loot drops now. Problem solved. It's not fun or exciting to see a +5 ilvl item drop when you already have that same version.

How is that problem solved? Now you run endless dungeons to receive nothing.

[Lahis]

It will be blissfull joy to finally have solid BiS list again.

[Zephire]

They could add a good corruption system

I guess you'd collect a crit, versa, mastery and haste set? I don't know... I have 2.3 bags with corruption gear and azerite. Hate the limited space but love to switch around with different things.

[BloodSense]

The problem with titanforging wasn't the system itself, but poor balancing and it was on top of other systems that are already heavily RNG based. If secondary stats were devalued and primary stats increased in value so that item level wasn't a meaningless metric for most classes TF wouldn't have been nearly as grating for most people. The issue really stems from things like sockets being worth 10 or 15 ilevels for most specs, and poorly itemized gear not being a throughput upgrade despite being heavier in your primaries. Few things feel worse than getting an item out of your weekly chest that should be a substantial upgrade, but because you're wearing a piece that has a socket/corruption and a top secondary stat is a net performance loss. Now have that happen 3 or 4 weeks in a row and its enough to get people to quit the game.

[mysticx]

I think something like WF/TF will be back before long, yay, we have a "Solid BiS list" again, and when you get that, you stop playing, which is a bad thing for a subscription game.

Sure, RNG on RNG with a side-dish of RNG can be a pain, but at least it motivates people to keep doing content, and not just cross off stuff they got the BiS gear out of and then whining "OMG Blizz! I got nothing to do!", and unsubbing.

[Grimbold21]

Did we forget the first half of WoWs existence?

Was I so immersed in the game that I missed the onslaught whining about having nothing to do after getting your loot?

[Ariktu]

Actually it was great. You could get BIS then play your main on progression fights that they needed you for or to help gear guild alts for the next Tier or gear your own alts.

You could stop playing content you did not care about like dungeons so no more doing mythic+ forever.

For me it stopped me from burning out like I did once they made the grind forever.

If they add in a stop to grinding for AP forever, it would be even better.

[Th3Scourge]

It's great, players want deterministic rewards, not some fucking lottery system where 20% of my dps is made up of lucky corruption rolls of which the player has no fucking agency

I don't mind corruption as a one-off, but it's a shit long-term system so im glad to see it go

[crusadernero]

Did we forget the first half of WoWs existence?

Was I so immersed in the game that I missed the onslaught whining about having nothing to do after getting your loot?

If the only way Blizzard can keep vast amount of players subbed is to put RNG ontop of RNG ontop of another layer of RNG with a little bit of RNG on the side, they need to up the creativity.

I think WF/TF is a OK enough concept but in BfA it got more and more negative response due to the sheer amount of RNG overall in the game. There used to be a time when you got a tieritem, a weapon or a trinket(and ofc more gear) and you knew that was your BIS and you were set for the next months.

Then years down the road its RNG chest every week, RNG azerite gear, RNG WF/TF, RNG stats and top it off with a corruption system that also has RNG mechanics. When all this is piled into one xpac it gets to much and people have now moved towards blaming WF/TF when in reality its retail wow as a whole that has become an issue.

I bet theres alot of people out there playing rather unhealthy just to get a WF/TF or even play while disliking doing so just to get that + item. With WF/TF it also made sense doing lesser raids(LFR, Normal) in hopes of getting a item to proc.

Personally I enjoyed working towards completing my pve/pvp gear each patch cycle. It was cool working towards something and knowing that you had the best available and got the best out of your character.

Back in the days before Tmog it could suck if your character looked hideous with the gear he had to use, but with Tmog that matters much less. Ok so you dont get a new wep in a while, but you can always change the apperance of it atleast. Cant understand why people would complain about having to farm a while for a new wep to drop when in same breath they can say they want WF/TF.

When that weapon finally drops it feels great getting just THAT weapon. If you get a weapon when WF/TF is in the game its more "oh I got this weapon but it didnt proc, whatever".

- - - Updated - - -

It's great, players want deterministic rewards, not some fucking lottery system where 20% of my dps is made up of lucky corruption rolls of which the player has no fucking agency

I don't mind corruption as a one-off, but it's a shit long-term system so im glad to see it go

Agreed. Theres to much RNG stuff in retail wow right now. If the gameplay is good and theres enough activities to do in the game, there shouldnt be a need for alot of RNG content. Sometimes retail wow feels like a slot machine. Running from one place to another in the hopes of not only a drop but a WF/TF drop.

Besides.. Whats the harm in being able to gear up your main character in BIS during a patch cycle? Most people probably play atleast one alt these days anyway and would like to play them alot too.

[Milfshaked]

This is an absurd question for anyone that played before WF was introduced. There is absolutely no need for such a mechanic in the game. I have no idea why people think it is needed. The people that get full BiS is an extreme minority and those people are not the type of people that stop playing just because they got full BiS.

Heck, even in WotLK Naxx days, the easiest time ever in the game to get full BiS, people still kept playing.

[docterfreeze]

People just need to find fun in other ways besides a constant gear treadmill. Try improving your gameplay or getting into PvP.

[Nevrex]

When it was introduced during SoO, it was like a nice bonus of extra gem slots or 5-15 ilvl increase (If i remember right)
The issue is that since then, the upgrade potential became huge. Getting a hc or mythic level gear from a world quest by killing a chicken makes raids and dungeons less appealing.

Also, getting a normal piece of gear is disappointing, since it could have been way better. When 2 players kill a boss and one gets a 100 ilvl item and the other 160, it doesn't feel good.

Having "end game" gear is not a bad thing in my opinion. I think people should be able to get items that they know they won't have to replace anytime soon. Besides, all this gear lottery makes the game too focused on loot and not enough on content.

Sorry if what I wrote looks weird, wrote it on my phone

[Lazuli]

BiS is a great feeling and allows you to focus on other aspects of the game. Why be obsessed with playing WoW endlessly 24/7 anyway? You shouldn't have to play the same game all the time never miss a daily/weekly chore and still never reach an end point, that is just ridiculous. At that point its just greed trying to get your players to stay subbed every month of every year with unfun busywork all based on RNG. Players should log in cuz the game is fun not because they 'have' to.

It also has a lot to do with quality of content. I think the low quality content (islands, warfront for recent examples) and removal of reforge, power level of 2ndary stat, the addition of ridiculous gear methods are all one in the same. If they stop focusing so much on gear, they focus more on content itself being fun and fresh and maybe give players back customization options.

How great would it feel to turn a piece of loot into something decent because you can swap a shit stat for one that your spec needs. It feels great. And who doesn't still use 3rd party websites and addons to sim and all this other bullshit? You know the excuses Blizz made for these removals. They have fixed absolutely nothing with gear/stat issues only made it much worse, so thats all smoke up our asses.

I think SL could be an amazing xpac if they focus more on class design and content instead of gear and other pointless systems to artificially create retention when really it just turns players away. Right now the game feels like an endless boring catchup that isn't worth playing to me at all. I can't remember the last time gear felt good to get in WoW. I haven't given a single fuck since all these whack ass systems implemented and even pvp was ruined since removal of vendors so I couldn't fall back on that when the games pve was shit like I usually do.

My only option was to unsub from BfA, I think I played about 4-5 months total of it. I played way more of WoD because at least class design was still decent and pvp vendors. Its about time this horrendous design stops and WoW goes back to its roots cuz this korean level bullshit is way too cancer for western audience.

[VinceVega]

Low droprates in raids are no solution as you can farm Mythic+ over and over and over again....

Look at 8.3 I was nearly done with equipping before i even set foot in Mythic Nyalotha.

The only stuff i would nee is from the last two because they are a higher iLvl. An we have only 6 done so far.

Together with lower raid loot you would need a weekly loot cap from mythic+ which will feel shitty in itself.
Honestly i think this will be horribly boring in the end.

They will tune lootdrops down. But probably not that much. Everyone will be fully geared in 3 resets and than... well nothing for a few month. Great...

I get why people don't like TF or corruption gear. But even with corruption most people had everything they needed 1 month into the patch.

[Dug]

Gear another character up.

[Eapoe]

This is a thing im worried about since quite some time now, we know so far there will not be a warforging or similar system in SL.

However, how do they keep the incentive for mythic+ and raids once you got most of your important stuff up?

Love or hate it, the introduction of thunderforging in mop and the advancing of that system was a necessary evil because otherwise a lot of players would have been "done" and quit way too fast, creating problems not only for the devs but also raiding guilds.

Im not here to discuss wf/tf or if there could have been a better solution (dead horse), but how you guys think they'll handle it in SL, i can't imagine they'd just let it be like right now -20% drop chance on everything and call it a day.

M+ needs a longterm incentive.
First few bosses in a raid need a longterm incentive.
Casual, non-instanced content needs a longterm incentive.

I really don't want to go to the wod days and before where realisticaly im only motivated to do that one boss at some point because it's the only upgrade i could still get..

M+ long term incentive is the challenge to keep pushing as high as you can go and get better while getting higher quality of gear. If you’ve hit those plateaus then consider getting into the competitive scene with MDI, or making millions of gold selling runs to buy things in game you want.
Why do you need incentive on first few bosses of raids? Or better question, why do you need more of an incentive? The incentive is already there: get better gear to push and kill later bosses of the raid.
How about endgame raid then? That incentive is helping yourself and guild members (people that used to be considered in game friends by many) the mount at the end as well as end game gear. There’s also the incentive that you can take a break. Once the final boss of a tier dies, if no one needs gear and it’s mutually agreed for everyone to take a break then the incentive is to stop playing and enjoy other things without a commitment at the time.
Casual, non instanced content also has incentive in the form of gear (as people like to point out WQs just shower you with loot), as well as rep that also gives chances at transmog items, pets, toys, and mounts. There’s even continued incentive with paragon chests.
What else can I point out? This is a thread wanting more incentive on what’s already there.

[kamuimac]

This is a thing im worried about since quite some time now, we know so far there will not be a warforging or similar system in SL.

However, how do they keep the incentive for mythic+ and raids once you got most of your important stuff up?

Love or hate it, the introduction of thunderforging in mop and the advancing of that system was a necessary evil because otherwise a lot of players would have been "done" and quit way too fast, creating problems not only for the devs but also raiding guilds.

Im not here to discuss wf/tf or if there could have been a better solution (dead horse), but how you guys think they'll handle it in SL, i can't imagine they'd just let it be like right now -20% drop chance on everything and call it a day.

M+ needs a longterm incentive.
First few bosses in a raid need a longterm incentive.
Casual, non-instanced content needs a longterm incentive.

I really don't want to go to the wod days and before where realisticaly im only motivated to do that one boss at some point because it's the only upgrade i could still get..

you get geared in a week by mythic + and then go play something else .

because only players that matter are raiders who just log in for raids and log out.

oh and you can go to farm keys for thorgast

there will be nothing else to do . SL seems like expansion to skip.

[Pakheth]

BiS is a great feeling and allows you to focus on other aspects of the game. Why be obsessed with playing WoW endlessly 24/7 anyway? You shouldn't have to play the same game all the time never miss a daily/weekly chore and still never reach an end point, that is just ridiculous. At that point its just greed trying to get your players to stay subbed every month of every year with unfun busywork all based on RNG. Players should log in cuz the game is fun not because they 'have' to.

It also has a lot to do with quality of content. I think the low quality content (islands, warfront for recent examples) and removal of reforge, power level of 2ndary stat, the addition of ridiculous gear methods are all one in the same. If they stop focusing so much on gear, they focus more on content itself being fun and fresh and maybe give players back customization options.

How great would it feel to turn a piece of loot into something decent because you can swap a shit stat for one that your spec needs. It feels great. And who doesn't still use 3rd party websites and addons to sim and all this other bullshit? You know the excuses Blizz made for these removals. They have fixed absolutely nothing with gear/stat issues only made it much worse, so thats all smoke up our asses.

I think SL could be an amazing xpac if they focus more on class design and content instead of gear and other pointless systems to artificially create retention when really it just turns players away. Right now the game feels like an endless boring catchup that isn't worth playing to me at all. I can't remember the last time gear felt good to get in WoW. I haven't given a single fuck since all these whack ass systems implemented and even pvp was ruined since removal of vendors so I couldn't fall back on that when the games pve was shit like I usually do.

My only option was to unsub from BfA, I think I played about 4-5 months total of it. I played way more of WoD because at least class design was still decent and pvp vendors. Its about time this horrendous design stops and WoW goes back to its roots cuz this korean level bullshit is way too cancer for western audience.

Well said.
I think the last time I cared for gear apart from its looks was MoP which had some really cool trinkets I could play around with. I also could remember names of items back then because they were memorable and not dime a dozen. Ever since gear has felt like 8/10 pieces of loot went straight to the vendor for gold or got disenchanted. Can only name the items that dropped as transmog only items like the Antorus weapons. Says a lot doesn't it?

[kamuimac]

Did we forget the first half of WoWs existence?

Was I so immersed in the game that I missed the onslaught whining about having nothing to do after getting your loot?

yes. we remember

thing is back then mythic + with infinite loot didnt exist

meaning you will be "deterministicaly " geared up in 3 days by spamming only keys you need.

and then you have literaly nothing to do in game unless you plan to progress mythic raid.

in order to recreat it they would have to remove loot from mythic + completly - and i think that they will do that - they are just to scared to announce it atm

[Azerate]

Yeah, we're basically going back to the times when content was less repeatable and there was less to do pve-wise. Hopefully the other non-dungeon and non-raid content is able to hold us interested in playing