"No Master Loot" discussion

[Draylock]

ML/PL, I hate losing the ability to trade off shit that helps others more early but other then that who gives a shit?

What does baffle me is how if loot drama was this common how do these guilds even exist?
I've said it before in this thread I've been in the same guild a long time (admittedly I play off and on) and I remember less than 5 instances of loot drama (two of which are caused by the same two people hating each other) over multiple expacs, our kill to drama ratio must be vanishingly small. I can only say if the same guild is having loot drama constantly it's going to have bigger issues.

As for the trial thing. Is it actually common for guilds not to give gear to trials, not lower prior but like actually d/eing gear in front of some trial's eyes?

Because loot drama was only an issue when GM went "rogue" and downright stole the gear. But then it's not MLs fault, it's a person going ballistic with their power. The argument about ML causing drama is kind of an asspull in my opinion. Not that there was no loot drama. But because it wasn't caused by the loot rules specifically.

And I don't think anyone actually completely barred trials from getting loot. They were just lower prio cause, well, they're trials. Same extended to people with low attendance.

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and you know waht is worst ? he himself dont realise that -_-

thats the reality - mid tier guilds which take forver to clear raids using the same looting principles as guilds that clear everything in a month.

they dont realise that the reason bosses dont die is not them not using ML but them doing 20th percentile dps and failing on mechanics.

they are the reason ML got removed.

People seriously need to readjust their evalutaion of what mid tier is. Statistically speaking, that would be a guild that's half way through heroic at this point. That's mid tier. Even a single kill in mythic would already bring you above that "mid tier".

[Kumorii]

Unfortunately the game has lost many good things due to a whiny loud minority.

I am pretty sure 99% of the people who complain about master loot are people who didnt read their groups loot rules before they joined it.
Or they are entitled selfish people who thinks they are more important than what would benefit their guilds raid-group.

Either way, giving the choice to organized groups to use master loot should be invoked, players who dislike it can then choose to join PL-groups.

Why do people keep saying this? It makes absolutely 0 sense...
Guilds and groups that abused it didn't advertise or explained their rules with "We abuse ML for our benefit, get fucked lol, please apply". They advertised as being fair and then it turned out they weren't.

[Draylock]

Why do people keep saying this? It makes absolutely 0 sense...
Guilds and groups that abused it didn't advertise or explained their rules with "We abuse ML for our benefit, get fucked lol, please apply". They advertised as being fair and then it turned out they weren't.

Using that logic, should we also ban free trade? Cause you know, people scam each other and nobody actually says "hey, I'm gonna scam you".

[Thelin]

Its part of activisions trend to prolong gametime,in sl they are going even worse by having less loot drop,they are simply shameless,i fully expect the next xpac to have gear in the shop once sub numbers start dipping below 100k,bfa was under 1m,when classic launched it was easily under 500k,pretty sure sl will be the last nail in the coffin with even more rng bs elements even more extreme than legion and bfa combined

And this is why blizzard will never win. It's impossible to please everyone and their will be negative opinions on both sides of the argument. People hate that epics feel underwhelming and that gear drops so frequently they literally had to make it engrained in the game as a way to obtain currency by scrapping it. Less loot is a better thing overall.

[Kumorii]

Using that logic, should we also ban free trade? Cause you know, people scam each other and nobody actually says "hey, I'm gonna scam you".

Scam is punishable, so not sure why you bring that up. Think not too long ago a top streamer got banned because of promising loot and then went back on it. They banned him due to chat logs and actions...

But enough about that and lets get back to the actual point I was making... which is pointing out the flawed logic in that line of thinking is. Not what should and shouldn't be done.

[Mekkle]

I like personal loot because of the lack of loot drama in my guild and pugs.

[Draylock]

Scam is punishable, so not sure why you bring that up. Think not too long ago a top streamer got banned because of promising loot and then went back on it. They banned him due to chat logs and actions...

But enough about that and lets get back to the actual point I was making... which is pointing out the flawed logic in that line of thinking is. Not what should and shouldn't be done.

You're right, that was a half-assed response on my behalf, I appologize.

I disagree with your point. Not cause it's wrong, loot ninja-ing definitely happened. And false advertising happened. But because this is an outlier case and not how the system was mostly used. I believe that in general ML did a lot more good than it did harm. And the risks and problems associated with it are an acceptable price for giving guilds an option to use.

[Kumorii]

You're right, that was a half-assed response on my behalf, I appologize.

I disagree with your point. Not cause it's wrong, loot ninja-ing definitely happened. And false advertising happened. But because this is an outlier case and not how the system was mostly used. I believe that in general ML did a lot more good than it did harm. And the risks and problems associated with it are an acceptable price for giving guilds an option to use.

How do you know that? All we have is Blizzards reasoning which is that they wanted it gone because of abuse and unhealthy use of it. Which means that it was in high enough numbers to be dealt with in such a drastic way, according to blizzards view ofc. I don't think it was as little as people claim it is.

Either way, I have no stake in this. I personally don't care for ML, I do think that they need to tweak PL. If they bring ML it won't bother me... so eh. Dunno.

[Twdft]

I don't know how much easier to understand can I make this, but here's an example. Player A has a +45 ilvl upgrade. This increases their dps by 5% which increases the raid dps by 0.01%, because they perform very poorly. Player B has a +5 ilvl upgrade. This increases their dps by 3% which increases the raid dps by 0.5%, because their performance is amazing. Obviously, I'm using very exaggerated numbers, just so someone like you can finally understand it.

How long did you keep that reasoning up when it was still possible? By that metric the worse player will never get any loot. You are the reason Blizzard removed ML.

[Kumorii]

Smart players didnt join groups before asking loot-rules when they join a random pug.

Smart people tend to read what they reply to as well.

[Aliven]

Gm : "Hey trial, despite the fact we want you to stay in our guild and our guild to grow, I'm going to give all the loot to me and my buddies and you'll just and keep raiding with us"

Trial : "Man I wish this masterloot system didn't exist, but sure that sounds okay to me man"


Did this actually ever happen?

Yes and then "you will be benched from now on because you dont do x dmg/healing etc" ;P

[Kumorii]

I guess you're not one of them then, thats okay.

oh boy, what a response...

[kaminaris]

No, it does not translate in that increase in dps in every single case. And extra stamina sure does help, but not if the said player dies every time anyway, just straining the healers for a longer time with more hp.

Man, you gotta pick one, either be precise with that one specific case (in which, by the way, a long time raider with great performance got a 15 ilvl upgrade, despite what the title of that clip says) or generalize completely, regardless of specific cases.

And even someone of your legendary level of ignorant condescension has to understand how stupid that "at your level" line is. 5/12 mythic is nothing compared to top guilds, sure, but is still a lot more than about 95% of playerbase will ever see. +45 ilvl upgrades are not common for any guild with comparable progress (unless you're talking about an incredible titanforge). And nobody is asking people to farm top gear before enteringvthe raid. Use some common sense and understand that asking people to not raid in quest greens is not "demanding too much".

Now, mind sharing your progress? Surely you must be 12/12 mythic and in Hall of Fame with how high and mighty you present yourself. Else you'd look pretty pathetic.

Yes it does translate into increase dps every single time. Sometimes even a lot more than 2-3% as spells that would kill him will now leave him at 1-5% hp.

5/12 guilds right now are casuals, you are greatly overestimating raid requirements at this point. Also I believe I said what my ranks were, I have like 10 cutting edges by now.

[Draylock]

How long did you keep that reasoning up when it was still possible? By that metric the worse player will never get any loot. You are the reason Blizzard removed ML.

I'm sorry, but how stupid do you have to be to make that kind of a reach? Do you understand how loot council/priority loot works? No? Then don't spew bullshit till you do?

[Gaidax]

I'm sorry, but how stupid do you have to be to make that kind of a reach? Do you understand how loot council/priority loot works? No? Then don't spew bullshit till you do?

I mean, you are certainly part of the problem with that ridiculous approach of "you're good enough to help us kill Mythic bosses, but not good enough to get loot for your effort".

That shit is seriously toxic as fuck and this sort of biased loot distribution is a common place in various weaker guilds. New system puts at least a damper on it at the beginning.

[BeepBoo]

Smart people tend to read what they reply to as well.

I think his point is: who the fuck actually ever just believed marketing lines? Literally every guild I've ever joined that had a true app process with a website for info, etc, has outlined exactly what their loot system was and why it was fair. Every guild I've been a part of that didn't use PL used some form of DKP or suicide kings, though. Never loot council. I probably wouldn't join a LC guild.

Even if you did get lied to, really easy to just cut ties and go hopping again. People really are too weak and too scared of change. It's why most people refuse to quit their jobs even if it sucks. Take the risk. It's worth it.

[Kumorii]

Even if you did get lied to, really easy to just cut ties and go hopping again. People really are too weak and too scared of change. It's why most people refuse to quit their jobs even if it sucks. Take the risk. It's worth it.

Bingo. At least you got it. Though it seems like you assume I am somehow staying with guilds like that, which I don't.
The time it takes for you to figure it out however, is lost. Basically you've been raiding with 0% drop chances for a few weeks.

Blizzard saw this as a big enough problem to change regardless of how many tries to downplay the occurrence of it.

[BeepBoo]

Blizzard saw this as a big enough problem to change regardless of how many tries to downplay the occurrence of it.

I don't need big daddy blizzard to hold my hand. I don't need saving or protecting. Freedom over everything IMO. I'll take the downsides of predatory people existing. I'd rather be pissed off at people (which i will never quit a game over) versus pissed off at the game (which I constantly quit games over if they have glaring problems because I'm at a point in my life where I'm so jaded I can't be bothered to overlook such problems).

[Gaidax]

I don't need big daddy blizzard to hold my hand. I don't need saving or protecting. Freedom over everything IMO. I'll take the downsides of predatory people existing. I'd rather be pissed off at people (which i will never quit a game over) versus pissed off at the game (which I constantly quit games over if they have glaring problems because I'm at a point in my life where I'm so jaded I can't be bothered to overlook such problems).

You are not the only person playing this game and it's not single player either... just sayin'

[BeepBoo]

You are not the only person playing this game and it's not single player either... just sayin'

The segment of people that want to raid but don't want to have to bend to the will of the team they're joining aren't the only players, either. Why do they get their way? Why not just leave it up to the players to sort out themselves and decide how much or little they're willing to tolerate from their team? Like I said, this just undermines player choice and disproportionately shifts the power in favor of someone who doesn't actually deserve that power. If the dissent was actually popular enough among the raid team, it would change. If people are comfortable enough to not leave or bring it up, then they're satisfied enough.