Got booted. Am I the bad guy?

[Raelbo]

I've said it seventeen times in this thread I'll say it seventeen thousand the RL has the power to kick the OP not the right.

I think what you mean is that having the power does not make it right (in the moral/ethical/good vs bad sense).

The issue here is that the word "right" has multiple, different meanings. The meaning that is intended depends on context. In this context a raid leader's rights and powers are pretty much synonymous, but have no bearing on whether what they do is right in the moral/ethical/good vs bad sense.

Having the right (as in power/authority) to do something has nothing to do whether it is the right (as in good/ok/nice) thing to do.


To illustrate the point:

"The raid leader has the right to kick any player from the group even when it's not right to do so" -> "The raid leader has the authority/power to kick any player from the group even when it's not ok/nice/a good thing to do so

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You are outright dishonest

I am comfortable in letting anyone else here be the judge of that.

[chase_the_mofo]

god i hate bfa il customisation...

[Darththeo]

I am comfortable in letting anyone else here be the judge of that.

I believe that as much as I believe I can lift the Statue of Liberty single handedly.

If you can't go back through all your posts to me and see you came to lecture and not debate, then you are beyond hope of ever having a reasonable debate with. I didn't come here to debate, I came here to express my viewpoint. I did that, I am not pretending it was a debate with you.

[Saltysquidoon]

The issue here is that the word right has multiple, different meanings, and the meaning that is intended depends on context. In this context a raid leaders rights and powers are pretty much synonymous, but have no bearing on whether what they do is right in the moral/ethical/good vs bad sense.

Here's the thing, 'right' is the wrong word to use in the first place because there is no constitution or treaty the delineates the rights of raidleaders.

Even if we're being colloquial about it there is a difference between when you have a right that is being breached and when you are exercising a right. In the former situation, the onus is on the offending party to show they have not breached your rights. In the latter, the onus would be on the person exercising the 'right' to show they have acted otherwise equitably and legally.

All of is largely superfluous to the argument in any case, as when someone uses the idiom 'within their rights' (such as the person I quoted) they largely mean they were justified in a general sense.
Hence my argument; Raid leaders have the power to kick anyone at any time for any reason, that's just how the game works. But try arguing they have the right to kick all Asian people from their raid and you see how that argument falls over quickly.

[Darththeo]

Here's the thing, 'right' is the wrong word to use in the first place because there is no constitution or treaty the delineates the rights of raidleaders.

Even if we're being colloquial about it there is a difference between when you have a right that is being breached and when you are exercising a right. In the former situation, the onus is on the offending party to show they have not breached your rights. In the latter, the onus would be on the person exercising the 'right' to show they have acted otherwise equitably and legally.

All of is largely superfluous to the argument in any case, as when someone uses the idiom 'within their rights' (such as the person I quoted) they largely mean they were justified in a general sense.
Hence my argument; Raid leaders have the power to kick anyone at any time for any reason, that's just how the game works. But try arguing they have the right to kick all Asian people from their raid and you see how that argument falls over quickly.

How can you complain about my definition of selfish and then play semantics over the word right? You lost all rights to complain about how I choose to use selfish.

The Raid Leader has the right to kick anyone from the raid for any reason that is permitted by Blizzard's terms of use. For example, your employer has a right to terminate your employment (based off law and contract (if applicable)), but if he terminates your employment because you are Asian and no other reason that violates a law, but the employer still retains the right to terminate employment. Rights are permitted to have limitations. I have to agree with @Raelbo here.

[Saltysquidoon]

The Raid Leader has the right to kick anyone from the raid for any reason that is permitted by Blizzard's terms of use. For example, your employer has a right to terminate your employment (based off law and contract (if applicable)), but if he terminates your employment because you are Asian and no other reason that violates a law, but the employer still retains the right to terminate employment. Rights are permitted to have limitations. I have to agree with @Raelbo here.

The ToS is an entirely untested legal document that is in no way comparable to any sort of document that confers rights anywhere on earth. That comment is so mindbendingly dissociated from reality it makes me further question whether you're arguing in good faith, although the fact you think a company can create a right probably informs your following argument.

Your employer example is actually a perfect illustration. An employer does not have the 'right' to terminate a contract of employment, they have the limited power to terminate that employment entirely subject to the laws of both contract and employment in the relevant jurisdiction. Which is why you know unfair dismissal claims exist.

All of the legal argumentation above is irrelevant in any case (as I mentioned in my previous post) because I was talking about the idiomatic usage of the phrase "within their rights" not the legal definition of a right.

[Darththeo]

The ToS is an entirely untested legal document that is in no way comparable to any sort of document that confers rights anywhere on earth. That comment is so mindbendingly dissociated from reality it makes me further question whether you're arguing in good faith, although the fact you think a company can create a right probably informs your following argument.

Your employer example is actually a perfect illustration. An employer does not have the 'right' to terminate a contract of employment, they have the limited power to terminate that employment entirely subject to the laws of both contract and employment in the relevant jurisdiction. Which is why you know unfair dismissal claims exist.

All of the legal argumentation above is irrelevant in any case (as I mentioned in my previous post) because I was talking about the idiomatic usage of the phrase "within their rights" not the legal definition of a right.

You literally just destroyed your own argument. This is so amusing.

You are taking such a narrow view of right ... it is funny that you got on my case when you are literally doing what you complained about (a personal view of a definition, just in case you try semantics again).

I even mentioned contracts in my post. I literally work for my state's department of labor. It is funny you think you are correcting me here. Contracts are in some cases the volunteering of a party to limit their rights in exchange for something, so contracts are built based on the stance employers have the right to terminate.

Applying in WoW, the Vote Kick/Kick feature was added in WoW by Blizzard because they recognize that there are times where a group of people may not wish to play with another. Blizzard recognizes the right to play with who you wish to.

[Ragedaug]

I dont complain about Toxic Community because Complaining doesnt fix shit, and I am in no place or power to Judge how other people should play their game.

You sure are complaining a lot about what I'm saying. So I suggest "sharing is better", 'cause if I got a drop that I could sell for gold or turn into helpful dust, but it's a direct upgrade for someone else in my group, I would share it. I would hope others shared with me if the roles are reversed, but would never demand it. And I even said the folks who did demand the OPs drop are wrong, but you still say I'm "greedy". You have an interesting set of values. I'm not sure if you are mad. Kinda seems like it 'cause it feels more like you are just responding to condemn me without reading what I'm actually saying or bothering to try to have a conversation.

I agree with you about the situation. I've even said that part directly to you. So this is twice now. I just disagree that playing "every man for themselves" and never share what you get to help anyone else, is a better way to play.

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I've said it seventeen times in this thread I'll say it seventeen thousand the RL has the power to kick the OP not the right. Kicking someone because your friend is being a rude greedy asshole does not make you a good friend, it makes you weak-willed and ultimately the bigger asshole.

Yes, it does make him the bigger jerk. I said as much in my first post. But it's also his right to do. Do you know how I know it's his right to do as a RL? Because Blizzard will never punish a RL for removing someone from their group for whatever reason they want to.

[WhoopDeeDo]

Imagine asking MMOchampion, WoW's cesspit-come-quarantine for the socially inept, for advice on whether you did the right thing. You seem to know what you're doing in game, and I sincerely doubt you would have waited long for another piece to grab your mats. Ultimately, you had a choice to push someone else along with a major upgrade, or keep it for yourself. What you did wasn't inherently wrong or even against the rules, but from a bystander viewpoint it was an inherently crappy thing to do. Yes, the rules are on your side and so you can rest knowing you weren't obligated to give him that gear. But you could have, likely at very little detriment to yourself.

Verdict: You weren't in the wrong from a technical standpoint, you were just selfish. Anyone saying otherwise is probably still kept awake at night by the Red Scare.

[baskev]

Majority of the time I've pugged it's been HC/Mythic level and has at times included several from same guild, I recall very few instances where specific loot rules were announced (let alone asked for) . Could very well be something specific to your region.

yup, said already several times.
But he is now warned. Ask before you join.

[Lord Pebbleton]

Didn't you join the raid exactly hoping to get what you ultimately got? It's unbelievable that people are still arguing. You were 100% right to keep the thing for yourself. You were even polite and explained the reason why to him. And even if you acted like a dong, it was still your item and thus still right to do whatever you wanted with it.

I had some similar experiences but they usually result in me writing in /raid something like "Sorry, guys who whispered me, I need the item for X" and that stopped all complaints. If you do not strictly need the item right at the moment, I would advise skipping the looting part and going to a mailbox later to avoid this kind of people.

[LuminaL]

considering conversation and how the other guy reacted like its their belongings and you owe them, if it was me I wouldnt give my loot to them even if I wanted to sell it for 60g.
on the other hand if someone asks politely I may even give them something I need or want.

you put time and effort into that raid. what you've got is yours.

[LanToaster]

You sure are complaining a lot about what I'm saying. So I suggest "sharing is better", 'cause if I got a drop that I could sell for gold or turn into helpful dust, but it's a direct upgrade for someone else in my group, I would share it. I would hope others shared with me if the roles are reversed, but would never demand it. And I even said the folks who did demand the OPs drop are wrong, but you still say I'm "greedy".

I´m not complaining, I try to make you see that you are trying to hide greed behind a "Noble Cause". You dont "Suggest", you directly said that people who dont give their stuff away if they dont get a "Big Enough Upgrade" is 'Quote': "the type of behavior that hurts everyone".

Furthermore you have complained that people who join Raids/Dungeons for Enchanting Materials should be Frowned upon and are selfish.

You have an interesting set of values. I'm not sure if you are mad. Kinda seems like it 'cause it feels more like you are just responding to condemn me without reading what I'm actually saying or bothering to try to have a conversation.

I have a Healthy set of Values. I see things from as much sides as Possible.
But I can give that sentiment right back at you, because all you keep repeating yourself. I said to everything you said something, I even gave you examples why this this "Notion" of yours, that everyone who sometimes want to keep their Loot is Hurting everyone, is wrong and is instead hurting everyone.

Because this entitlement which you expect, want and think is fine. (Even if you dont actively Beg for Loot, which I never said) With your attitude and preaching that its fine, you are just actively Hurting everyone yourself. I know of several people who like to share stuff, (me Included, hell I even take one or two undergeared people if my Raid can manage it) but it leaves a sour taste if people demand and beg for stuff.

It even goes so far that as RaidLead I actually got a Question from a Random Player, if its Fine that she keeps an Item that is just maybe a slight upgrade.
Thats just sad.

I mean tell me: Why do you join a Raid? I doubt you log on just to farm equipment for Strangers.

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I had some similar experiences but they usually result in me writing in /raid something like "Sorry, guys who whispered me, I need the item for X" and that stopped all complaints.

If that would work all the time it would be Nice, though still sad that you need to argue why you want to keep your stuff.

But I got an Idea, I ask the next guy who whispers me for stuff why he needs it. If I need to argue about my loot, then the least they should do is get an Argument together why he should have it instead.

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you put time and effort into that raid. what you've got is yours.

Obviously judging from a few responses, the higher your Itemlevel goes, the less value you have, and the less you deserve.
Naturally a a freshly boosted Character is way more valuable and deserves more reward the group activity than a 480 Geared Character.

[Great Destiny Man]

yup, said already several times.

You'e said it once, after making a blanket statement that everyone should be asking for loot rules (and we've now established does not in fact apply to everyone).

But he is now warned. Ask before you join.

I mean sure if he happens to be part of the same region you are. At least over in EU there is nothing to be wary of.

[cirdanx]

Ha...the state of the game. Nah you were right.

[Ragedaug]

I´m not complaining, I try to make you see that you are trying to hide greed behind a "Noble Cause". You dont "Suggest", you directly said that people who dont give their stuff away if they dont get a "Big Enough Upgrade" is 'Quote': "the type of behavior that hurts everyone".

Furthermore you have complained that people who join Raids/Dungeons for Enchanting Materials should be Frowned upon and are selfish.


I have a Healthy set of Values. I see things from as much sides as Possible.
But I can give that sentiment right back at you, because all you keep repeating yourself. I said to everything you said something, I even gave you examples why this this "Notion" of yours, that everyone who sometimes want to keep their Loot is Hurting everyone, is wrong and is instead hurting everyone.

Because this entitlement which you expect, want and think is fine. (Even if you dont actively Beg for Loot, which I never said) With your attitude and preaching that its fine, you are just actively Hurting everyone yourself. I know of several people who like to share stuff, (me Included, hell I even take one or two undergeared people if my Raid can manage it) but it leaves a sour taste if people demand and beg for stuff.

It even goes so far that as RaidLead I actually got a Question from a Random Player, if its Fine that she keeps an Item that is just maybe a slight upgrade.
Thats just sad.

I mean tell me: Why do you join a Raid? I doubt you log on just to farm equipment for Strangers.

I keep repeating myself because you keep mischaracterizing me, which is why I'm almost positive you aren't bothering to actually understand what I'm saying. You just want to argue. You caught a glimpse of something I said and built this whole idea in your head about who I am.

I said I would give a drop to another player in group with me if it was a direct upgrade for them while not being a direct upgrade for me, and for that you say I'm greedy.
I said I would never demand another player give me their drops regardless if they couldn't even use it, and you call me entitled.

So, at this point I'm not sure what I can say. You are arguing with a ghost you made up in your head and pretending it's me.

[AnSnow47]

Oh guys, its up to each persons decision.