Slice and Dice = just another weakaura on your screen.

[shoegazing]

Energetic Recovery currently exists even on live.
It is baked into ShT. When you proc a cp you also get 8 energy. SnD will enhance this effect because faster attack speed means more cp procs = more 8 energy procs.
Don't get me wrong, i would welcome it if we get HaT back and the 8 energy back to SnD, but currently it is tied to ShT. Sadly ShT only works when autoattacking something unlike HaT and SnD.

For Outlaw SnD boosts Maingauche procs.

Only Assa gets more Poison procs out of SnD and nothing else.

Yes, exactly.

This is why PvP Rogues have never been fond of Shadow Techniques. If you are Stealthed after a Vanish and closing in for the re-opener, or if you get stunned or rooted, your baseline income of resources (both energy and combo points) drops. It feels terrible to play this way. Also the Variance introduced by the "3rd attack has a 50% chance to proc it" business is annoying for Subtlety which has historically been a very low variance spec in its rotation. Yet another instance where the actual gameplay is being homogenized towards other classes/specs while Blizzard claims "look at the flashy animations and purple particles, Subtlety is more unique than ever before!!"

For these reasons, ShT should be rolled back to HAT and Energetic Recovery.

For similar reasons, Premeditation should return. Players that enjoy the First Dance trait can simply macro it to mimic that behavior when Premed is available but more importantly it gives us 2cp from Stealth before we open so that SnD can already be rolling when you leave Stealth. One of the most unique Subtlety mechanics ever, also lost in the great prune.

Symbols of Deaths should be completely removed because it's a terrible, low interactivity, flat % dmg increase - and that will free up the necessary bind space for Premeditation. The history of Symbols of Death is a complicated one that involves Blizzard trying to fill a void that was left after they initially removed Find Weakness, Slice and Dice, and Premeditation (in its various versions that have been tried, it's attempted to replace aspects of each of those abilities) but it's time to face the fact that this ability just isn't working. It's not built on a strong foundation of Rogue identity to begin with, and the gameplay was better before which Blizzard obviously realizes because both Find Weakness and Slice and Dice are returning. Complete the job: delete SoD and bring back Premed.

There is also the major concern of Find Weakness being still the weak 30% form (vs. 70-100% before it got pruned in the first place) and randomly procing from Backstab and Fan of Knives (my Rogue uses Knives, not Shurikens, sorry). This completely defeats the purpose of the ability and provides unfortunate evidence that Blizzard didn't truly understand the feedback to bring back Find Weakness in the first place. First of all, this rotational variance feels horrible for Subtlety which for most of its history has had a high level of determinism. Secondly, this high FW uptime build runs directly counter to the stated goal of making Dance burstier and available less often. Because FW can't possibly be tuned the way it should to give bursty Dances and openers from Stealth when it's also up constantly, they are really backdooring the same steady damage profile onto us, we just get to press Shadow Dance less often.

Finally, Gouge. Gouge was pruned because, and I quote Celestalon directly from 2015/2016, "we're giving you more CC with more Shadow Dances so we're taking some things away to compensate." WELL? We're giving back the dumb Shadow Dance charges which we never wanted. Bring back Gouge now. There is no excuse anymore, and their complete refusal to even discuss this ability indicates a large degree of dishonesty where they won't even openly state what their hangups are.

Subtlety was essentially a superior spec in every way prior to Legion and we are going on the 3rd expansion in a row now where they can't even get it back to that level.

[Varolyn]

Sad to say but I actually think the reason that blizz doesn't want to bring back gouge to sub or assassin is because of M+. Giving those two specs gouge back would mean that they booth have incredible tooltkits for M+ (Especially assassin cause it can still silence) and blizz seems to want outlaw to be "the" mythic plus spec for rogues.

[Aldo Hawk]

I think Slice and Dice is a pretty good example of Blizzard misunderstanding what we want with this "unpruning". We don't just want more button to press. Slice and Dice is just another weakaura on your screen.

We want abilities back because they make sense. We want USEFUL abilities like Gouge for all specs. Gouge is an very iconic for Rogues and is an extremely useful ability. Gouge should be a Rogue ability and not an Outlaw ability.

WE WANT USEFUL ABILITIES BLIZZARD! Sorry for caps

Keywords in this thread: USEFUL USEFUL USEFUL USEFUL USEFUL USEFUL USEFUL USEFUL USEFUL USEFUL USEFUL USEFUL USEFUL USEFUL USEFUL USEFUL USEFUL USEFUL USEFUL USEFUL USEFUL USEFUL USEFUL USEFUL USEFUL USEFUL USEFUL USEFUL USEFUL USEFUL USEFUL USEFUL USEFUL USEFUL USEFUL USEFUL USEFUL USEFUL USEFUL USEFUL USEFUL USEFUL USEFUL USEFUL USEFUL USEFUL USEFUL USEFUL USEFUL USEFUL USEFUL USEFUL USEFUL USEFUL USEFUL USEFUL USEFUL USEFUL USEFUL USEFUL USEFUL USEFUL USEFUL USEFUL USEFUL USEFUL USEFUL USEFUL USEFUL

Did I mention that we want USEFUL abilities?


Example: DKs are getting Anti-Magic Zone back. That is an EXTREMELY useful ability.

It would be cool if Rogue got Smoke Bomb as raid utility!

I don't entirely agree with your post but Slice and Dice should never ever return, I hope you are heard.

[truevalon]

Not a fan of this at all. SnD was removed specifically because it tied too much of rogue damage up in auto attacks. At the worst over half of rogue damage was tied to auto attacks rather than abilities. Rogues possibly going back to more damage being passive rather than from the use of abilities is not a bad thing. Also here is the reaction from when SnD was initally removed: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...slice-and-dice!

[Naiattavain]

guys should calm down its basically what ever blizzard decides to do so..

just be happy with what you get. if its anything lol. it could be a boot and you still be mad.

[RobertoCarlos]

guys should calm down its basically what ever blizzard decides to do so..

just be happy with what you get. if its anything lol. it could be a boot and you still be mad.

What could be a boot? Our new spell is a boot? Yeah that would make people mad you're right. Make sense plz

[RobertMugabe]

Yeah SnD was a terrible spell and I was so glad when they first removed it for SIN rogues and then later for Outlaw (I actually enjoyed the original RtB a lot and played Outlaw for the most part in legion). It was just a stupid buff to track, I'd basically make a weakaura whenever it was <=7 sec before it runs out, a button of it would glow up for me so that I know I have to refresh it instead of spending the combo points on Envenom or Rupture (for which I also had a similar weakaura).

But people really wanted it back for whatever reason, so there you go. It's funny to read how some people here think that SnD was a key spell to make a good or bad rogue lmao.

There could have been so many other things which they could've brought back imo. SnD was really the one thing I didn't want to see back.

[shoegazing]

It's amazing to me how many terrible Rogues think it's fun only pressing Eviscerate lmao

I greatly miss setting up a bunch of buffs and debuffs to maximize my damage in my upcoming burst window

Shadowlands still isn't making Rogue as good as it was before Legion trashed everything, but it's an improvement from the current state

[keldarepewpew]

I was so pissed when they removed s&d glad its comming back.

[exsanguinate]

Same goes with garrote. Who ever had that idea to make it part of the basic rogue rotation. It feels awful, unsatisfying to press and like an energy waste. Why need two bleeding abilites when you already have rupture. This is simply uncreative and lazy design.

Give us back smoke bomb with 10% damage reduction, gouge or recuperate to spend our combo point into something when leaving combat.

For f*ck sake, stop designing addon classes.

[Saltysquidoon]

Same goes with garrote. Who ever had that idea to make it part of the basic rogue rotation. It feels awful, unsatisfying to press and like an energy waste. Why need two bleeding abilites when you already have rupture. This is simply uncreative and lazy design.

Because they want muti to be the dots and bleeds spec, so they gave it the dots and bleeds?

Edit; Also Subterfuge/iron wire triple garrote opener from stealth is fun (an useful) as fuck.

[exsanguinate]

Because they want muti to be the dots and bleeds spec, so they gave it the dots and bleeds?

Assassination is and already was dots and bleeds before. It will also remain dots and bleeds, even with garrote restricted to stealth. The offensive way for the use of garrote is kinda wrong in my opinion.

You already have:

- Rupture
- Deadly Poison
- Crimson Tempest
- Poison Bomb
- Toxic Blade (might not be a dot, but it's something to enhance it)


Then you also have different ways to apply dots via:

- Fan Of Knives
- Poisoned Knife
- Kidney Shot (Internal Bleeding)

and last but not least -> Garrote

I don't know where assassination hasn't been dot and bleed now and before, garrote restriction or not. Also before the change.

What I want to say is, I don't need more abilities on my screen for monitoring. Anyone who tells me he does not need addons to track his cooldowns or spells on a high level of gameplay is a liar.

[Saltysquidoon]

Assassination is and already was dots and bleeds before. It will also remain dots and bleeds, even with garrote restricted to stealth. The offensive way for the use of garrote is kinda wrong in my opinion.

Well, you can't have poison bomb and crimson tempest at the same time, poison bomb is also not a dot and its entirely passive. So it's really only rupture and DP, and you only actively apply rupture.

I mean you're entitled to your opinion as to what garrote's place should be in the tool kit. All I am saying is that they obviously wanted to add another actively maintained dot and decided instead of making a new spell they would just remove the cc component of garrote when not used from stealth, pretty elegant solution all things considered.

[exsanguinate]

poison bomb is also not a dot and its entirely passive.
.

I always associate dot with damage over time. In the end, it doesn't matter to me.

There must be more ways to realize the class fantasy that blizzard pursues without adding tons of "press me when I run out" dots. Just a small example: Why not throw a poison bomb instead of being passive? Things like that. It is because this company is a. lazy or b. don't have
capacities.

A class does not automatically become more dynamic just because you have to press 50 buttons every 10 seconds.

[VooDsXo]

Slice and Dice was a definitive combat ability for a very, very long time, and as a talent in it's current form it literally makes you do less DPS than if you selected no talent in that line at all.

I welcome it back, maintenance buffs are a very common theme in this game and a big thing that sets apart the casuals from the big boys.

The thing this OP is actually missing is a tight timed stack of buffs you need to manage, while using damaging abilities, and doing the choreography that is a raid boss is what defines skill and difficulty.

- - - Updated - - -

I always associate dot with damage over time. In the end, it doesn't matter to me.

There must be more ways to realize the class fantasy that blizzard pursues without adding tons of "press me when I run out" dots. Just a small example: Why not throw a poison bomb instead of being passive? Things like that. It is because this company is a. lazy or b. don't have
capacities.

A class does not automatically become more dynamic just because you have to press 50 buttons every 10 seconds.

Or it's a way to reward management of the buffs properly, or does poison bomb have no direct tie-in to melee attacks? This entire idea that a button needs to directly do damage or that adding in a passive is lazy baffles me. Theres a million things to point out as flawed, but balancing buffs is MMO gameplay since day 1, it's pretty much day 1 RPG as well, if you can use a buff in a window while maintaining then you should. Now make it a constant thought process and you have the difference between effective use and just use.

[Laqweeta]

guys should calm down its basically what ever blizzard decides to do so..

just be happy with what you get. if its anything lol. it could be a boot and you still be mad.

After BfA a lot more people are willing to unsub if the game takes a different direction, and in my opinion that's good. Money talks, bullshit walks.

[Saltysquidoon]

Or it's a way to reward management of the buffs properly, or does poison bomb have no direct tie-in to melee attacks? This entire idea that a button needs to directly do damage or that adding in a passive is lazy baffles me. Theres a million things to point out as flawed, but balancing buffs is MMO gameplay since day 1, it's pretty much day 1 RPG as well, if you can use a buff in a window while maintaining then you should. Now make it a constant thought process and you have the difference between effective use and just use.

Poison bomb has a flat % chance to proc based on CPs spent. Given that it's entirely passive, uncontrollable by the player and a dps increase in single target and aoe situations I think it's one of the worst abilities in the game from a design pov.

[Seradi]

Are people actually excited about Slice and Dice? For Outlaw? Seems super boring and just adding it so they can say we have another button to press. It does nothing interesting for the rotation.

[Finear]

Are people actually excited about Slice and Dice? For Outlaw? Seems super boring and just adding it so they can say we have another button to press. It does nothing interesting for the rotation.

i would take snd over rtb any day of the week
rtb is what makes me not play outlaw right now

[Ragnarohk]

i would take snd over rtb any day of the week
rtb is what makes me not play outlaw right now

RtB is the reason I mained outlaw in Legion, loved the idea and the animation. It seems to be a love or hate kinda ability. No in-between.