Tearing down historical statues the European edition

[Mayhem]

Most of our ancient statues are for Gods of the Olympic Pantheon anyway. Who were almost all murderous rapists.

Yeah, but they aren't real, which makes their murdering and raping also not real.

[JohnBrown1917]

I wouldnt be sad if they removed the Karl Marx memorial in germany tbh. Its ugly af anyway.

Good thing that statue is not involved in this discussion.

[Vorkreist]

There are books, encyclopedias, documentaries, museums and other sources of historical documentation that keep people Leopold II or Jefferson Davis or any other historical piece of shit in history's memory.

Which means, we don't need statues that glorify their shit ass behavior.

You also don't need to behave like a degenerate ape and destroy historical things you don't like. Better go and blow up museums as well. We don't need shit if its all on wikipedia right?

[Adam Jensen]

You also don't need to behave like a degenerate ape and destroy historical things you don't like. Better go and blow up museums as well. We don't need shit if its all on wikipedia right?

Please point to the part of my post where I said anything about behaving like degenerate apes or blowing up museums.

[Vorkreist]

Please point to the part of my post where I said anything about behaving like degenerate apes or blowing up museums.

Your defense of destroying statues is exactly that.

[JohnBrown1917]

Your defense of destroying statues is exactly that.

Museums have value, statues of genociders do not.

[Adam Jensen]

Your defense of destroying statues is exactly that.

I'm saying they should be removed, not that they should be removed without going through a legal process. And again, I said nothing about blowing up museums, I even made a point earlier in this thread saying they are fine in places where the appropriate context is given, like Stonewall Jackson's statue at Manassas.

[Elegiac]

Your defense of destroying statues is exactly that.

I'd like to point out that the statues which are getting destroyed outright are ones that have been heavily controversial for years and in many cases have remained up against the wishes of local residents. We saw this play out with the statue of Lee in Richmond; Northam agreeing to remove the statue as soon as possible was in part to save it from getting toppled and destroyed like other monuments, which makes the owners of the land seeking their injunction all the more hilarious because the long it's out there the greater the chance they get the statue back in pieces.

[Felya]

You also don't need to behave like a degenerate ape and destroy historical things you don't like. Better go and blow up museums as well. We don't need shit if its all on wikipedia right?

How about we replace their statues, with a memorial to their accomplishments? After all, we are not degenerate apes worshipping idols, but are celebrating accomplishments. Let’s try it... name one of the statues being torn down and we can discuss what a statue depicting their accomplishments would look like.

[Shadowferal]

Buddhas of Bamyan were destroyed in Afghanistan in 01. To the locals they were deserving of destruction.

[Elegiac]

Buddhas of Bamyan were destroyed in Afghanistan in 01. To the locals they were deserving of destruction.

What a ridiculous non sequitur, lol.

Ignoring the fact you can't seem to tell the difference between democratic opinion and fundamentalist warlords, local opinion is a consideration, not the only consideration.

It's also a function of -what- the monuments are commemorating.

[Flarelaine]

... John C. Calhoun is forever associated with Clemson, weather they like it or not. Clemson was founded based on Calhoun's will, it is located on his land, founded with his money, and built by his slaves. It is named for his Son-in-Law, who was its first President and founder. Clemson's mission was to bring agricultural and engineering knowledge to the Upstate of South Carolina, which is what it has done, and continues to do, and it has been very successful at.

Rather then pretending the racist founder never existed, I would prefer they own that shit, and put it up there with all the uncomfortable context. Make it clear that yes, we got founded by a horrible person, and yes, the land and money came from the enslavement of human beings, but we have acknowledged that, moved past it, and in the ultimate spite to John C. Calhoun's memory, we are now using his legacy for the advancement of all South Carolinians, white and black. I find that far more important and poetic then just refusing to acknowledge he has any connection to Clemson university in the first place. This isn't unique to Clemson (It is just the one I live right next too), Oxford went through something similar with Cecil Rhodes. I would much rather slap the historical context unto it, and treat the whole thing as a learning opportunity that darkness in our past is a part of every people and culture on the planet, and that we can move past it.

South Africa simply buried the Rhodes legacy. Oxford... tried to, but some wealthy donors let it know that if Rhodes goes, so do the donations.

[caervek]

Really we can tear them all down. If acting like common for the age is all it takes then all need to go down. Martin luther king was a homofobe i guess he need to go also.

This kinda highlights the problem in a nutshell. Every single statue erected prior to the year 2000 represents a slaver or a homophobe or a misogynist or a racist or a transphobe, hell some of them were even terrorists, how are we supposed to decide which ones should go and which ones should stay? The statues were erected to commemorate something great/heroic that person did, the fact they also did things or held views that were considered normal at the time but are shameful today should either be a problem for all of them or not a problem.

[Healing Rain]

Don't live in Europe, however I say tear down the statues of those who were irredeemably evil and keep the ones where tearing them down would be a "Thou without sin..." moment.

[NED funded]

I took a shrug approach to this whole thing bc whatever until I saw they vandalized the statue of Churchill??

Yeah spare me that nonsense the people tearing statues down are just looking for things to be outraged not any legitimate anger or whatever

[JohnBrown1917]

I took a shrug approach to this whole thing bc whatever until I saw they vandalized the statue of Churchill??

Yeah spare me that nonsense the people tearing statues down are just looking for things to be outraged not any legitimate anger or whatever

I suppose comitting genocide is okay if that person agrees with you. But it does not surprise me you seem to love such a racist asshat, even by his own time's standards.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racial...hurchill#India

[Shadowferal]

If people want outrage then every US president up to...at least Jimmy Carter should make the list.

[Stelio Kontos]

What about statues to Alexander the Great, Cyrus the Great, Attila the Hun, Genghis Khan, Vlad Tepes, Leonidas or any other great conqueror/warlord? I can see this issue existing the US with confederate statuary, but in the Old World this could grow out of hand quickly. Where does the line get drawn on this? Are cultures that are gone now safe? What about Mongols, Greeks, Romanians who are still around? Do they need to tear down statues of kings/emperors/generals who killed or harmed anyone?

[Mayhem]

What about statues to Alexander the Great, Cyrus the Great, Attila the Hun, Genghis Khan, Vlad Tepes, Leonidas or any other great conqueror/warlord? I can see this issue existing the US with confederate statuary, but in the Old World this could grow out of hand quickly. Where does the line get drawn on this? Are cultures that are gone now safe? What about Mongols, Greeks, Romanians who are still around? Do they need to tear down statues of kings/emperors/generals who killed or harmed anyone?

Put them in museums? I mean, why should they be around this day and age? Would you put up a statue of Hitler because he was a great conqueror and waged war?

[JohnBrown1917]

What about statues to Alexander the Great, Cyrus the Great, Attila the Hun, Genghis Khan, Vlad Tepes, Leonidas or any other great conqueror/warlord? I can see this issue existing the US with confederate statuary, but in the Old World this could grow out of hand quickly. Where does the line get drawn on this? Are cultures that are gone now safe? What about Mongols, Greeks, Romanians who are still around? Do they need to tear down statues of kings/emperors/generals who killed or harmed anyone?

If the local people want it gone, its all fair game.