Night Elves, Magic & the Arcane - Common Misconceptions & Things You Didn't Consider

[Tanaria]

Don't flatter yourself.

You keep making this statement of "It wasn't the Shen'dralar" but that just makes everything all the worse, because those apprentices were taught by somebody.
Also - you keep slandering the High Elves because they went without magic for 3000 years, but look at what they achieved with their magical mastery over Quel'Thalas. After the supposed, better Shen'dralar come back, all they can teach their apprentices are a few failing constructs and a bit of portal magic.

I thought these guys had been studying arcane magic for 10,000 years, but after only 3000 years of no magic, the High Elves achieved far more than the Shen'dralar did in all of those years. Plus, the High Elves were far more pure and weren't bent on corrupted methods. Everything they did was done purely and with most power, since not even Sargeras could detect the arcane powers of the Sunwell or the powerful spells of the High Elves or their Sanctums.
Ban'dinoriel has got to be one of the greatest creations to have ever been created in Elven legacy - not even Azshara's Arcanists who became Naga created such a long-lasting enchantment. It was only by Dark'han, did it fall - but that was due to his inside knowledge and betraying the High Elves.

If the Legion, the corrupted red dragons and Orcish Warlocks couldn't detect or penetrate the arcane protective barrier, then that says something about the high levels of mastery the High Elves and Blood Elves have.

[Mace]

Don't flatter yourself.

You keep making this statement of "It wasn't the Shen'dralar" but that just makes everything all the worse, because those apprentices were taught by somebody.

You have to think about information you see and read - i.e. understand before you jump to conclusons.

When the Azshara zone events happened, the Shen'dralar have only just been accepted (cataclysm happens literally at thend of the Wolfheart book) - at best it's been a few weeks.. how much training do you think the Shen'dralar would have given returning highborne or new novices in a few weeks?

War already is pressing in, these Lorekeepers, most of them former druids t least nknow combat as they've been active for the lst 10k years, but totally rusty in the arcane. No matter how hard they've worked, a few weeks is not enough to cover everything.

how much time do you think the Shen'dralar would have had to organise things? They are basically rebuilding an entire order for this faction of Night elves, not to mention restoring their caste. - how much time to oversee training directly and how much actual knowledge can be conveyed?

Think! Why do you think it is the returned former Highborne, now Highborne again that are teaching some brand new students and are in the war effort in Azshara enhancing the night elves' defense of their zone in Azshara.

So because people 10k years out of practice, are exploited by a fully seasoned enemy mage on aspects of combat techniques that had been updated, this somehow means the Shen'dralar themselves are bad when the lore specifically tell s you they're the empire's most revered arcanists aand have been studying and researching the arcane over the last 10k years, in a city that survived the sundering with it's knowledge intact like Suramar and unlike the long vigil and Thalassian groups.

Common sense should direct you otherwise.

Also - you keep slandering the High Elves because they went without magic for 3000 years, but look at what they achieved with their magical mastery over Quel'Thalas. After the supposed, better Shen'dralar come back, all they can teach their apprentices are a few failing constructs and a bit of portal magic.

I'm not slandering them at all, they achieved a lot, but it's not a patch on what the kaldorei achieved. The night elf civilization is unmatched by any civilization today, the lore says it, it was a wondrous civilization. Th Thalassians hadn't coaught up yet, not even close. But they came along way.

They had a fraction of the knowledge, a tiny fraction of the population, far fewer resoruces, they were also devolved a little bit, they had far greater challenges, nearly being wiped out several times. They have to rely on humans to defeat the trolls. And they are in a tiniy section of the world, much less of everything.

What drives our world forward today huh? we have innocvation that comes from millions of people, companies, many many minds and wills discovering and making applications in all diverse areas of things, now imagine this is global effort, in an empire that is united..yes united, same philosophy and drive - do you honestly think the Thalassians in the state they are with having lost most of the knowledge could achive those heights.?

The current night elves with the knowledge from the Shend'ralar would ot notbe able to achieve what the y did in the empire, the most they would be able to do, is rebuild one of the great cities and restore much of the knowedgeabse, but the level of operations and rate of progress and the scale of it, would not be matched by the empire.

Why do you think Nightboren and Shen'dralar progress is much slower during the Long vigil period? Less resources, less man power and limitations locked in a city, this has an effect. You only need think of the situation properly and you can map a more realistic ouctyre,

I thought these guys had been studying arcane magic for 10,000 years, but after only 3000 years of no magic, the High Elves achieved far more than the Shen'dralar did in all of those years. Plus, the High Elves were far more pure and weren't bent on corrupted methods. Everything they did was done purely and with most power, since not even Sargeras could detect the arcane powers of the Sunwell or the powerful spells of the High Elves or their Sanctums.
Ban'dinoriel has got to be one of the greatest creations to have ever been created in Elven legacy - not even Azshara's Arcanists who became Naga created such a long-lasting enchantment. It was only by Dark'han, did it fall - but that was due to his inside knowledge and betraying the High Elves.

You are not paying attention to context and the actual history, Eldre'thalas is a pre-sundering civilization, that continued to thrive until 1,200 years ago, so it was way ahead of Silvermoon, it was Suramar levels. they have fallen into ruin slowly over time, but their standard is pre-sundering empire which is ahead of what the Tahlassians have done.

Don't get me wrong the Thalassians have made far mor e progress than any night elf group, even though we don't know the new knowledge and advancments the Shen'dralar have made during the last 10k years (because we are not shown them, we are told them - unlike Suramar - this is why you have to factor in what you are told, and not just go on what you are shown) - wow doesn't show everything all the time, in fact most of the time, it shows certain bits and fails to update most things. You need the knowledge from events that are written about a nd events from quests if you want to make good guesses on the state of things, you can't just go on the static 1-time state you are shown. Which often never covers everything because its focus is gameplay , game quests, so if you want to translate this into a more real situation you have to THINK.

If the Legion, the corrupted red dragons and Orcish Warlocks couldn't detect or penetrate the arcane protective barrier, then that says something about the high levels of mastery the High Elves and Blood Elves have.

Again, I didn't say the blood elves don't have high levels of mastery, they are elves for crying out loud, and are very capable, there is a limit to what they achieved, you don't hear me boasting about how amazing the Darnssian civilization is , not because the night elves aren't great or capable, but because of the history and what's transpired, what the lore tells us.

Thalassian civilization is far greater than the Darnassians have for obvious reason, but neither compares to the pre-sundering civilization. Doesn't mean the elves aren't capable of it, they are, especially the night elves, it's the same race afterall, however with the knowledge and drive to do it they would be able to resotre some emblance of ti, however I don't think Azeroth geo-politics would result in anything like the kaldorei empire ever again - the most the kaldorei would get is establishing themselves in their zones - they are not the type to attack and destroy unless they are provoked.

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You one of those that failled, you have been told by now, like 100 times, so again, which part of the ''THEY BANNED MAGIC'' fact haven't you understood?

Actually I understood that not all night elves banned magic during the long vigil, and the magic ban ended quite a while ago, so it isn't banned currently and the reasons for it ended in the very WC3 we both learnt about it - which was the very first sign to tell you that the magic ban was not a permanent thing nor a defining thing, but a situational thing. They released 3 volume novel giving the context for the entire era in great detail. There is more time spent on the pre-sundering era than the entire long vigil as far as the lore goes about night elves.

And all of it is the past, WC3 is the event that ends the long vigil and you only see the night elves for a portion of it. War of the Ancients trilogy is the event that ends the pre-sundering era, it's a detailed description over 3 books.

WoW is the period all that history sets you up for, the night elves are no longer in isolation, no longer in the long vigil, no longer in arcane banning/suppressing mode.. this was the case from classic - yet people just ignore what the actual lore shows and tells them, and don't try to understand.

But this is why I made this topic, it is exactly for that.

[Tanaria]

You have to think about information you see and read - i.e. understand before you jump to conclusons.

When the Azshara zone events happened, the Shen'dralar have only just been accepted (cataclysm happens literally at thend of the Wolfheart book) - at best it's been a few weeks.. how much training do you think the Shen'dralar would have given returning highborne or new novices in a few weeks?

War already is pressing in, these Lorekeepers, most of them former druids t least nknow combat as they've been active for the lst 10k years, but totally rusty in the arcane. No matter how hard they've worked, a few weeks is not enough to cover everything.

how much time do you think the Shen'dralar would have had to organise things? They are basically rebuilding an entire order for this faction of Night elves, not to mention restoring their caste. - how much time to oversee training directly and how much actual knowledge can be conveyed?

Think! Why do you think it is the returned former Highborne, now Highborne again that are teaching some brand new students and are in the war effort in Azshara enhancing the night elves' defense of their zone in Azshara.

So because people 10k years out of practice, are exploited by a fully seasoned enemy mage on aspects of combat techniques that had been updated, this somehow means the Shen'dralar themselves are bad when the lore specifically tell s you they're the empire's most revered arcanists aand have been studying and researching the arcane over the last 10k years, in a city that survived the sundering with it's knowledge intact like Suramar and unlike the long vigil and Thalassian groups.

Common sense should direct you otherwise.

I'm not slandering them at all, they achieved a lot, but it's not a patch on what the kaldorei achieved. The night elf civilization is unmatched by any civilization today, the lore says it, it was a wondrous civilization. Th Thalassians hadn't coaught up yet, not even close. But they came along way.

They had a fraction of the knowledge, a tiny fraction of the population, far fewer resoruces, they were also devolved a little bit, they had far greater challenges, nearly being wiped out several times. They have to rely on humans to defeat the trolls. And they are in a tiniy section of the world, much less of everything.

What drives our world forward today huh? we have innocvation that comes from millions of people, companies, many many minds and wills discovering and making applications in all diverse areas of things, now imagine this is global effort, in an empire that is united..yes united, same philosophy and drive - do you honestly think the Thalassians in the state they are with having lost most of the knowledge could achive those heights.?

The current night elves with the knowledge from the Shend'ralar would ot notbe able to achieve what the y did in the empire, the most they would be able to do, is rebuild one of the great cities and restore much of the knowedgeabse, but the level of operations and rate of progress and the scale of it, would not be matched by the empire.

Why do you think Nightboren and Shen'dralar progress is much slower during the Long vigil period? Less resources, less man power and limitations locked in a city, this has an effect. You only need think of the situation properly and you can map a more realistic ouctyre,


You are not paying attention to context and the actual history, Eldre'thalas is a pre-sundering civilization, that continued to thrive until 1,200 years ago, so it was way ahead of Silvermoon, it was Suramar levels. they have fallen into ruin slowly over time, but their standard is pre-sundering empire which is ahead of what the Tahlassians have done.

Don't get me wrong the Thalassians have made far mor e progress than any night elf group, even though we don't know the new knowledge and advancments the Shen'dralar have made during the last 10k years (because we are not shown them, we are told them - unlike Suramar - this is why you have to factor in what you are told, and not just go on what you are shown) - wow doesn't show everything all the time, in fact most of the time, it shows certain bits and fails to update most things. You need the knowledge from events that are written about a nd events from quests if you want to make good guesses on the state of things, you can't just go on the static 1-time state you are shown. Which often never covers everything because its focus is gameplay , game quests, so if you want to translate this into a more real situation you have to THINK.


Again, I didn't say the blood elves don't have high levels of mastery, they are elves for crying out loud, and are very capable, there is a limit to what they achieved, you don't hear me boasting about how amazing the Darnssian civilization is , not because the night elves aren't great or capable, but because of the history and what's transpired, what the lore tells us.

Thalassian civilization is far greater than the Darnassians have for obvious reason, but neither compares to the pre-sundering civilization. Doesn't mean the elves aren't capable of it, they are, especially the night elves, it's the same race afterall, however with the knowledge and drive to do it they would be able to resotre some emblance of ti, however I don't think Azeroth geo-politics would result in anything like the kaldorei empire ever again - the most the kaldorei would get is establishing themselves in their zones - they are not the type to attack and destroy unless they are provoked.
- - - Updated - - -

You are also aware that Dath'Remar's group of Highborne were of Zin-Azshari's Elite Circle and Dath'Remar was also in line for the throne.

And what the Shen'dralar were doing wasn't great...it was madness. Even Verinias was going to take exile with Dath'Remar and leave for pastures new. He tells Sensiria that the Shen'dralar have gone too far in their practices and he wasn't wrong. Feeding off fel essence for a little under 8000 years, whilst their kin with Dath'Remar bathed in the glory of the Arcane and the Light for those years shows you what both groups are capable of.

This wasn't a question of power, this was a debate of morals, which the Shen'dralar had lost and the Elite Circle had retained.

And knowledge isn't relative when you look at what the Elves did in Quel'Thalas. Again, Ban'dinoriel is one of the best elven creations to have ever been made. The enchantment that blessed the region in an eternal spring as well as holding off against the Amani, Orc Warlocks and Dragons. Not to mentioned keeping Sargeras' eye averted. So whilst you talk about knowledge, let's put that into practice, because those who created Quel'Thalas and passed the knowledge down the generations would win, hands down against the Shen'dralar.
The Shen'dralar wielded void and fel magic, to what extent, we don't know - but it was enough for Verinias.

After that, the common lore takes hold:
Well of Eternity destroyed, Shen'dralar feel the affects. They grow lethargic.
Tortheldrin creates pylons and imprisons Immol'thar
Shen'dralar feed off demonic essence for thousands of years
Horde forces see this and attack the Shen'dralar - killing many and driving the scattered few from the ruined settlement

[Jackstraw]

*things on night elves as they were, as they are, as they should go forward

So I'm having a difficulty here.

For the sake of discussion, are we only to discuss Night elves as an entity that did not veto the arcane in its entirety, banning those who would later become Thalassian, and the practice of magic in general?

Because the "nelven" empire was a great arcane empire.
And after a certain point, Tyrande and her posse made decisions that lead to the practice of the arcane being forbidden. The entire culture has been reshaped since then, the only source of arcane allowed being the Elune one.

In Wolfheart, as mad as she was, Maiev guts a bunch of highborne. Why so?
Her delusions aside, she had some legitimate motivations, wouldn't you agree?

Practicioners of the arcane might very well be a minority in the current Night elf society, the communion with the nature and the moon being their guiding factor.
In the future sky might very well be the limit given how Tyrande is changing. Arcane and magic overall might become more prominent in the culture.

As it stands though? Eh.

About the whole thing of everything deriving from the Night elves, I'll draw a line then and there.
There might be groups that cultivated the skill. You'll never recuperate the gap created by a society that actively pushes for magic, acumen and arcane to be a part of everyday mundanity. Silvermoon has magic flying brooms and books as opposed to the Moonwells. Ancients and magic golems.

We can discuss the merits of all the elves being just a fraction of the grandeur that the original Night elves are - but it's disingenuous to do so.
No amount of Mordent teaching fifty shades of Arcane Missiles (but only if your racial is Shadowmeld) can substitute for ten thousand years of being so obsessed with time to the point of creating a whole current of magic whose main focus is time alteration.

Two more things:
1, since we already compared a bunch of things that fall into the "Goku vs. the Sun" category, and I'd much rather like to stride away from those, I'd LOVE for Oculeth to outsmart a bunch of demented lore Deus ex that prevent the Alliance from being a story driven, fulfilling faction.

2, as out of touch as I am I know my lore better than most. I'd appreciate you not throwing mad shade at me, assuming what I pay or don't pay attention to, or what I read and did not read.

[Mace]

So I'm having a difficulty here.

For the sake of discussion, are we only to discuss Night elves as an entity that did not veto the arcane in its entirety, banning those who would later become Thalassian, and the practice of magic in general?
.

No, this topic isn't limited to that ofc, but then most of the confusion and disagreement often comes around the use , prevalence, state and relation of the arcane with the night elves.. because most here on this topic who disagree think like Tuor above does - Night elves banned arcane magic - and because of that conclude incorrectly they hate it, or they can't use it, or it has nothing to do with them, or that's not what they're about at all, or Highborne is just for gameplay - and a whole bunch of wrong things based on mis-understanding what they are shown.

This largely is a result of not taking what they play and see into the context the written lore provides, therefore they miss the relevance of this part of the night elves and what it means. This is also why they think night elves are the forest elves, blood elves the high elves and Nightborne the dark elves - again, getting it wrong, because they are basing things on partial information, not taking all the context and info into account.

So I set up this topic to at l east shine some sort of light on the arcane connection while looking at the night elf race (not just the Darnassian or alliance faction aligned group) as a while , but in particular in regards to this.

This is where most mis-understanding on night elves come s from, and it is largely because most are unaware of the detail concerning the race/ Blizzard unfortunately wrote a lot more about it than they showed. But if you add it all up, and factor in written info and spoken info as valuable as displayed stuff, then you'd get a much better picture. Take the in game world in context, it doesn't show everything, it doesn't update anything, and it doesn't show context - rather the lore provides this service that helps you interpret things and you use that to fill in the gaps even as you try to guess how things must be now. Most people think of the races stuck in cata state, but cata was an event, and it's been 10years since, the game only focuses on the current expansions zone and story any activity it shows elsewhere (like Anduin and Wrathion in Stormwind or the armies at the gates of orgrimmar0 is in relation to what's going on, it doesn't update the humans, the night levs, Kalimdor or EK with what else has been going on. If the Dark irons hadn't joined the alliance, most would probably think that they are mostly hostile, but that was updated when they became a playable allied race

[ravenmoon]

So I'm having a difficulty here.

For the sake of discussion, are we only to discuss Night elves as an entity that did not veto the arcane in its entirety, banning those who would later become Thalassian, and the practice of magic in general?

Because the "nelven" empire was a great arcane empire.
And after a certain point, Tyrande and her posse made decisions that lead to the practice of the arcane being forbidden. The entire culture has been reshaped since then, the only source of arcane allowed being the Elune one.

An important distinction here is that they aren't the reason why they ban the arcane --- the Legion is. The entire motivation behind the ban is stopping the Legion. This is also the reason why ALL of night elf society lives like they do in the Long Vigil.

Put it this way, if there was no Legion threat and arcane magic could have been used, what do you think would have happened? Imo, night elves would have started again, but quite a few more would have followed Malfurion in the natural wilds lifestyle (no longer so enamoured by the arcane or the queen), however many would have also continued, rebuilding. The latter is postponed indefinitely because arcane magic cannot be practiced for fear of the Legion

This does recast how you view the night elves today. It's important to understand why the arcane is banned and what it naturally means to the night elves. If you genetically have an affinity and love for the arcane, and a great talent racially, you will start using it and develop it well again, especially if the reason you haven't used it for 10k years is to stop the Legion invading force from being able to return to your world to consume it's magic (this is what the night elves believed they were after).

Witht he long vigil ended, night elves who put the arcane aside would pick it up again. If you examine why the arcane dominated so strongly, and what other characteristics the night elves have, you can roughly guess where there natural equilibrium will be. Night elves love nature, they're also naturally drawn to the arcane and love it - so these two will pretty much be competing forces and balance each other out - external factors would determine one taking precedence over the other. In the pre-sundering era, it's the charisma and accomplishments of Queen Azshara, she is so loved, many follow after her, the arcane is new (like technology is to us since the industrial revolution) most of us are blinded by its enormous benefits and what we can achieve, its drawbacks and dangers not fully grasped, until the Legion comes and destroys everything. In the long Vigil, because arcane can't be used, nature magic and lifestyle blossoms, this is not the norm either. For fear of the legion's returning they don't use arcane.

But post Long vigil - it returns, now you have both - night elves are likely never to go as bat shit crazy over the arcane as they did during Azshara's reign, they've ssen the good and the ugly, and while it's useful, having lived ages without it, this means they're least likely to have the total society and race swept away with it like happened before. Those who were naturally gifted with it and pursued it will, but others won't give up druidism like in the pre-sundering era, especially aware of its value and having a love - it will reach a new balance.

In Wolfheart, as mad as she was, Maiev guts a bunch of highborne. Why so?
Her delusions aside, she had some legitimate motivations, wouldn't you agree?

Practicioners of the arcane might very well be a minority in the current Night elf society, the communion with the nature and the moon being their guiding factor.
In the future sky might very well be the limit given how Tyrande is changing. Arcane and magic overall might become more prominent in the culture.

As it stands though? Eh.

Yes, it could do as you described, discussions with Mace has led to the point where I think it will never take over society completely like it did in Azshara's day, because of the reasons said above. But it will grow, and become popular and useful, but not all consuming like you see in Nightborne society which is a reflection of how it was in the invasion period.

Addiction is not only cured, but understood too, balance is a requirement, the nature arm of the night elves can never be allowed to die, even if a charaismatic arcane leader like Azshara arises again.. but then these long lived people have seen great heights of the aracne, they're not noobs in awe speechless of magic, part of the "new life" wonder is gone, wonder still remains, but they're wise and old enough not to be carried away as a culture.

So prominence, YES, dominance, NO. There will be equilibrium - and this is the theme of the Night elves. It's balance, harmony - and the two major influences are between arcane and nature - as the dev into Mace quoted from my Night Fae topic shows, the night elves are intended to be the best of the Dark elves and the wood elves - marrying the arcane and nature, and we see this - they gave them two eras, one that's the best arcane era on Azeroth on any race, and the other the best nature era - both are ended, the modern era now sees both coming together side by side - it's jsut that people tend to ignore the signs that show the arcane coming together and also ignore what it means to the night elves and what that connection means.

About the whole thing of everything deriving from the Night elves, I'll draw a line then and there.
There might be groups that cultivated the skill. You'll never recuperate the gap created by a society that actively pushes for magic, acumen and arcane to be a part of everyday mundanity. Silvermoon has magic flying brooms and books as opposed to the Moonwells. Ancients and magic golems.

We can discuss the merits of all the elves being just a fraction of the grandeur that the original Night elves are - but it's disingenuous to do so.
No amount of Mordent teaching fifty shades of Arcane Missiles (but only if your racial is Shadowmeld) can substitute for ten thousand years of being so obsessed with time to the point of creating a whole current of magic whose main focus is time alteration.

The point about everything coming from the night elves is to re-orientate people's view point. Currently they view the night elves as the forest elf group, with the blood elves being the high elf group and Nightborne the dark elf group - they are assigning DnD classifications to warcraft, but this is not the design.

In Warcraft, the Night elves are like the Zandalari trolls to the other troll races. The original that has all the key components of what it means to be truly troll in its purest state.

The reason they mess this up iis because they are either unware or don't recognise the arcane side of the night elves. Playing WC3/Wow levelling zones show a lot of the forest side but not the arcane, however much is said of night elf arcana if you read the books, and if you pay attention to the developments in both cata and Legion, you notice a lot of non-druid night elves. The forest setting does seem to lean the race towards wood elves, but the setting is mis-interpreted when regarded in that sense, because the night elves have just come out of the long vigil, Suramar (good night elven city) is gone horde, Eldre'thalas is in near full ruin, and so night elves don't have a civilization centre till Darnassus is built (which has just been destroyed), this gives the impression that they're all druid types more than is actually truly the case, because the reason most are in forests was because of the Long vigil, to stop the legion returning and not allowing themselves to rebuild or do civilization with arcane magic for the same reasons. Not because this is what they all are.

Yes they all love nature, but they also are all arcane inclined too, they do cities with nature, it's not cities or nature - this is what pre-sundering era shows us in the books. So people assume that they're in the forest because they're forest elves, and don't factor in that many of those live in the forest because that's what they had to do to fulifll this long vigil task, and the reason why they don't have tons of cities and civilization now, is because it's just recently ended, not because they're forest elves. Give it time and you will see.

The rise of civilization and the arcane isn't mutually exclusive with nature, another mistake they make. This mistake is made because they view elven cities in the prism of the Blood elves (and now the Nightborne too), they don't see the characteristic night elven love for nature in these societies nor to the night elven degree, and therefore they presume night elves living in Suramar or pre-sundering style cities means their culture would be like blood elves or Nightborne - that's an incorrect assumption, in fact true night elven civilization is pre-sundering cities covered in nature too like that picture Tanaria/Astranea linked a few pages back.

It's not civilization excluding nature, nor are the night elves nature lovers excluding the arcane because they use to ban it. When players don't understand or factor in the reasons why, they will make erroneous statements and believe something about the race that isn't the case.

So yes, all the arcane stuff you see in the Blood elves, and Nightborne it is from the night elves. By this I mean their desire for the arcane, most of their arcane knowledge, their ability with it and their disposition to it is from the night elves. Although blood elf and Nightborne (pre-sundering night elf) culture is different, it has the arcane love and aptitude and organisational similarities although blizzard hasn't given much detail, but the blood elves is based on the Highborne culture (it isn't it, but it's based on it) the Nightborne is the Highborne culture. But this culture is only a part of the night elves - these societies are missing the nature druidic culture and the Elunite religion too but the Night elves have these in tact.

The pre-sundering culture had all of these, but in time the arcane greatly dominated the nature druidic one. The blood elves in turn have developed other things not elven based- the Light comes from the humans, blood anima from the Mogu, but their core is still elven - their skill and aptitude in the forest with their Farstriders is a racial thing from the night elves as is their arcane acumen.

The night elves still have this in their race genetics, furthermore they still have groups who continued practicing the arcane, and the new post vigil group has incorporated some of these into them, which tells everyone their willingness.

So what blizzard does with races it doesn't go you're the light one, you're the arcane one, you're the savage one, you're the hunter one, etc etc etc, no, most races have several things to them and they have their own story, some races are part of a species group, we see that a lot more with allied races, but before then night elves and blood elves were part of the elf species group - or kaldorei species group in the ancient elven tongue. Forsaken, Humans and Worgen are part of the human species groups though being their own "races" - undead isn't a race, it's a state, but we know the forsaken faction are pretty much undead humans (not any other race - even if it's leader and her fellow banshees are elves). When they created the night elves they did "origin" race for the elves, and that was the night elves. They repeated the same thing when they did the Zandalari and backdated them to before the Elves. - here we have to race origin groups that embody the best and purest form of the race.

it doesn't mean that Darkspears can't beat Zandalari or blood elves can't beat night elves, but the core and height of what trolls achieve and the full breadth of capability is with the origin group, the Zandalari, same with the night elves, even though people can't see the arcane in the present as much because its practice isn't widespread, they ignore the potency of the Highborne group and the natural capacity for the arcane that is still part of the night elf race, unchanged.

The night elves have every thing associated with Elves or rather originally elven, or another way of looking at it, all the things the night elvs do or have represent what is classed as elven (even though others may have learnt their magic, the core of this specialisation is the elves, and the night elves are the fullest and purest expression of it. The Shen'dralar are still well ahead of the blood elves, and the Nightborne are actually the night elves just changed a little - they are not a n elven society that has restarted or refreshed, it's the night elf society that's continued on, but experienced a physical alteration - not a cultural one. So for this purpose consider the Nightborne as reflecting the origin elf - i.e night elven.

Two more things:
1, since we already compared a bunch of things that fall into the "Goku vs. the Sun" category, and I'd much rather like to stride away from those, I'd LOVE for Oculeth to outsmart a bunch of demented lore Deus ex that prevent the Alliance from being a story driven, fulfilling faction.

2, as out of touch as I am I know my lore better than most. I'd appreciate you not throwing mad shade at me, assuming what I pay or don't pay attention to, or what I read and did not read.

1. I would love to see them actually show in -game what the Shen'dralar can do, both in battle but more so in terms of creativity and wonder.
i2. 'd love to see the Farondis respond, there brand of Highborne i s the original nobility of the caste before those close to Azshara became addicted, haughty and reckless.
3. I'd love to see the Moonguard remnant ally with the alliance group and show them humiliating blood elf, Nightborne, kirin'tor casters - if just to show what the lore says about these guys - the legendary battle mage group
4. I'd love to see the night elves build an amazingly stunning capital, full of beautiful buildings like Suramar/zin'azshari and rich with nature - this would show people that the night elves are not just forest elves, that the dark elf side is still a major part and it goes hand in hand with the forest elf side. Don't need night elven forests to turn into cities or anything like that, I like that the forests remain pure and wild, but also that there are cities, showing this duality. I expect night elf forests not to have towns or cities in them, but you may occasionally meet lone temples or lone palaces amidst, but there is a great city, and maybe one or 2 smaller ones. Amidst vast forest land.

[Tanaria]

The Shen'dralar are still well ahead of the blood elves.

Is that why Venirias wanted out?

Behave yourself - everything the Highborne of Quel'Thalas did topples whatever the Shen'dralar accomplished.
Your just in denial about the accomplishments of the Blood Elves. Blood Magic, the only Elven race to master weaving fel magic (Blood Elves that is)...basically, your wrong about Elven lore in it's entirety.

Not to mention Ban'dinoriel - the greatest protective barrier ever forged by the Elves - their spellweaving betters that of the Suramar Magisters. Whilst the Suramar Elves began drinking the Nightwell, the High Elves were able to still hunt and leave Quel'Thalas whilst maintaining the knowledge that they were safe.
I would expect nothing less from those of the Highborne Elite Circle and their descendants.

The Blood Elves are still way ahead of the Shen'dralar and they probably always will be - as it should be. It's about time a Horde race was actually better than an Alliance race at something.

And if they are still "way ahead" of the Blood Elves, is that why their apprentices are so crap?

[ravenmoon]

Is that why Venirias wanted out?

Behave yourself - everything the Highborne of Quel'Thalas did topples whatever the Shen'dralar accomplished.
Your just in denial about the accomplishments of the Blood Elves. Blood Magic, the only Elven race to master weaving fel magic (Blood Elves that is)...basically, your wrong about Elven lore in it's entirety.

It's not a my elf is better than your elf Tanaria. Apply what the lore says to what you see. It is what it is, I know the blood elves are your favourite race, I know you think they are pretty amazing at the arcane, they are, but they are well behind the likes of the Shen'dralar on so many levels.

Follow the lore.

When it comes to fighting with magic, I think on the whole the blood elves are better, because they've been training with magic in combat for longer than the Shen'dralar who are mainly scholars and magic engineers, however their vast knowledge and experience probably makes up for that gap making them more even.

I dont think the Shem'dralar are more powerful than the blood elf mages either in terms of raw power

[Tanaria]

It's not a my elf is better than your elf Tanaria. Apply what the lore says fo what you see. It is what it is, I know the blood elves are your favourite race, I know you think they are pretty amazing at the arcane, they are, but they are well behind the likes of the Shen'dralar on so many levels.

Is that why the Shen'dralar's apprentices are so good?

Oh wait...they aren't really are they?

And name something the Shen'dralar did that the Blood Elves haven't done, yet? Name anything that is in the lore...I'll wait.

[ravenmoon]

But just accept what the lore tells you and dont try to make your fave group more than it is. Let the information give context to what you see. Context matters or you will get things wrong

- - - Updated - - -

Is that why the Shen'dralar's apprentices are so good?

Oh wait...they aren't really are they?

And name something the Shen'dralar did that the Blood Elves haven't done, yet? Name anything that is in the lore...I'll wait.

I said the She 'dralar not their apprentices 10 years ago who were a few weeks into training.

A seasoned mage of any race is going to be more experie ced than a train we of a few weeks even if they are highly talented Highborne grade elves.

[Tuor]

Actually I understood that not all night elves banned magic during the long vigil,

The ones we play, and we know has Night Elfs did... They totally banned magic for 10k years, only allowing the highborne to return somewhere after LK was defeated and before deathwing came out (cata).

and the magic ban ended quite a while ago,

That was just before Deathwing came out... Tyrande almost didn't even received the Highborne emissary in Darnassus. The emissary was there yelling and crying like a baby surrounded by guards during most of wrath.

so it isn't banned currently and the reasons for it ended in the very WC3 we both learnt about it - which was the very first sign to tell you that the magic ban was not a permanent thing nor a defining thing, but a situational thing. They released 3 volume novel giving the context for the entire era in great detail. There is more time spent on the pre-sundering era than the entire long vigil as far as the lore goes about night elves.

Not permanent... holly Green Jesus, Ilidian was left in Jail for 10k years just because he refused to stop using magic, and you came here and say... Dude, that thing wasn't permanent...


Can you please what Ilidian says at the beggining of this video?

WoW is the period all that history sets you up for, the night elves are no longer in isolation, no longer in the long vigil, no longer in arcane banning/suppressing mode.. this was the case from classic - yet people just ignore what the actual lore shows and tells them, and don't try to understand.

classic WoW Nelf lore was pretty much nature based and anti-magic, and yes i did it, both with my Nelf Warrior and my Draenei Shaman (when he finally came to Darkshore).

[Tanaria]

I wish you could just accept the lore for what it is.

Blood Elves and Void Elves are just better in every aspect than the Shen'dralar. They have weaved the Arcane, the Fel, the Light, the Void and some Farstriders have a basic knowledge of natural/druidic magic (but only a very basic level)
The lore is the lore and what we see in-game tells us this.

[Jackstraw]

So I set up this topic to at l east shine some sort of light on the arcane connection while looking at the night elf race (not just the Darnassian or alliance faction aligned group) as a while , but in particular in regards to this.

I see, thanks for clarifying.

I agree: gameplay changes are slow. In fact, I'd be interested in seeing the arcane reshaping at least some of the Kaldorei, so that what was once whole can be remade.

Overall though I'd doubt that the state of the race can be returned to the pre-Sundering unicum if only because ten thousand years are a great amount of time, and Tyrande and Illidan showed us that, widening the spectrum as much as possible, a Night elf seldom leaves a stance once taken unless something unexpected happens.

As far as culture itself goes, I'd love small Shen'dralaresque outposts to bloom so that some can maybe follow their arcane calling, especially now that Teldrassil is no more and more ancient traditions can (re)take root.
Maybe without the whole Immor'than siphoning this time.

Following this reasoning I could see some small outposts or maybe a joint venture with the Silver Covenant alongside whatever name the inevitable Ren'dorei task force takes, much like how the Sunreavers and the Covenant oppose one another, especially given how probably the Nightborne will join the Reavers those same ventures.
@ravenmoon,
yours is a point I'm losing completely.

Are you advocating for the Night elves to be the end all be all? If so, are the Zandalari the ultimate elf form?
Do you want Suramar to be a full fledged sanctuary much like Shattrath? If you fancy the pre-Sundering ancestry so much why don't you roll a Nightborne?

This last line is of course a jab: Nightborne are so far detached from their origins they visibly evolved into something else entirely, losing a number of things in the process - above all: faith.

[Mace]

The ones we play, and we know has Night Elfs did... They totally banned magic for 10k years, only allowing the highborne to return somewhere after LK was defeated and before deathwing came out (cata).

I am well aware, which is why when I say night elves I mean the entire race, not just one group. When I refer to specific groups I say so.

That was just before Deathwing came out... Tyrande almost didn't even received the Highborne emissary in Darnassus. The emissary was there yelling and crying like a baby surrounded by guards during most of wrath.

Yes, that was a while ago, it was 10 years ago. And the people they invited back, well, they've not had any banning.

Not permanent... holly Green Jesus, Ilidian was left in Jail for 10k years just because he refused to stop using magic, and you came here and say... Dude, that thing wasn't permanent...

Illidan was imprisoned because he was believed to be working with the Legion, not for using arcane magic, every night elf at that stage used arcane magic. It wasn't banned when Illidan was imprisoned.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iqB3KeiBLu
classic WoW Nelf lore was pretty much nature based and anti-magic, and yes i did it, both with my Nelf Warrior and my Draenei Shaman (when he finally came to Darkshore).

This is what I mean by fan inflation and ignoring the lore context. Classic wow the night elves were fairly nature based, but they weren't anti-magic. They hadn't lifted the ban on the Highborne yet, but they were not anti magic. In WC3, they weren't anti magic when the Legion invasion began, they weren't trying to ban the alliance mages from using arcane magic, nor had a problem with it in classic. Do you know why?

- - - Updated - - -

I see, thanks for clarifying.

No worries,. hope you enjoyed the read.

I agree: gameplay changes are slow. In fact, I'd be interested in seeing the arcane reshaping at least some of the Kaldorei, so that what was once whole can be remade.

Indeed, it's a "living" world, but much isn't updated and a lot isn't shown unless it is specifically relevant, this is why the lore information text is so important, and ignoring it is how people err, especially with the night elves who are described as enigmatic and have the lionshare of their lore in text and not in-game.

Overall though I'd doubt that the state of the race can be returned to the pre-Sundering unicum if only because ten thousand years are a great amount of time, and Tyrande and Illidan showed us that, widening the spectrum as much as possible, a Night elf seldom leaves a stance once taken unless something unexpected happens.

There will be noo night elf empire - but there will be arcane wielding night elves and nature wielding night elves, priest night elves - that's the core of the race, it should lead to some cool night elf stuff in cities and forests, but more like a snap shotlike we got in Suramar for cities and a snap shot of forests - unless they do a serious timeskip.

As far as culture itself goes, I'd love small Shen'dralaresque outposts to bloom so that some can maybe follow their arcane calling, especially now that Teldrassil is no more and more ancient traditions can (re)take root.
Maybe without the whole Immor'than siphoning this time.

that's one of the things I expect in time, the Highborne community will grow, with the ban lifted, many Darnassian Kaldorei who had the arcane talent but couldn't train would now be adding to their numbers, they will grow, and we will get them in towns and cities, outposts too - but this time they would likely have drudis and priests with them.

Following this reasoning I could see some small outposts or maybe a joint venture with the Silver Covenant alongside whatever name the inevitable Ren'dorei task force takes, much like how the Sunreavers and the Covenant oppose one another, especially given how probably the Nightborne will join the Reavers those same ventures.

That would be nice, sort of like the sin'dorei/Shal'dorei relation - it could be a lot more involved with the Highborne and silver covenant/ren'dorei because neither have homes atm, so we could see them really push for development

[ravenmoon]

@ravenmoon,
yours is a point I'm losing completely.

Are you advocating for the Night elves to be the end all be all? If so, are the Zandalari the ultimate elf form?
Do you want Suramar to be a full fledged sanctuary much like Shattrath? If you fancy the pre-Sundering ancestry so much why don't you roll a Nightborne?

This last line is of course a jab: Nightborne are so far detached from their origins they visibly evolved into something else entirely, losing a number of things in the process - above all: faith.

Oh, not at all, I was making several points, trying to explain what Mace meant by the night elves are the original elves. Night elves are the major elf race, Thalassians and Nightborne sub-race are minor groups - but people just see night elves as niche forest elf group because they don't look at i t's lore.

It's not about what I want, I sometimes talk about possibilities and their viability. In terms of Suramar, it is an option for the night elves to have, I prefer it because i think the Broken isles fits all their needs, and is historically very relevant to the Alliance aligned group, including the very Suramar itself. But it's just an option, which has naturally had opposition from many horde fans, but it's a desirable option contextually and makes a lot of sense, i need to say it because i believe it, and the opposition I felt is based on "it's ours now, you can't have it" - a sanctuary like Shattrath was one of the visions for it - an elven sanctuary - i feel this is the better option. Capital of both the alliance night elven faction and the horde Nightborne - seeing really how closely tied they are, both coming from the same city.

I do roll have several Nightborne characters and while I do and enjoy that, I find it ridiculous when people say night elves can't have it or won't have it because it's pre-sundering /rolleyes. My motivation is largely based on extensive night elf advancements and I tackle all aspects of the night elf with ideas for their future - in ways that make the night elves stronger and better. This includes the Nightborne too who are a night elf sub-race, the problem is i face a lot of opposition when it comes to suggestioing the night elves share or take Suramar - all from horde fans presumably who want the night elf city to stay horde.

They don't get me I think , I'm thinking night elf affairs,they are thinking horde/alliance. I am exploring options, looking at the situation and the lore as it is, they are making every excuse under the sun why it can't happen.

[Mace]

@Jackstraw, @Rhlor @Pheraz, @Tanaria @Alanar. @Ardenaso , @EnigmAddict, @Astranea , @ravenmoon , @MyWholeLifeIsThunder @Vaedan @Sagenod @Yarathir

Watercooler Night elves
Let's have an honest conversation about night elves here.

When delving into the whole night elf lore, racial set up and disposition in trying to map out what a post vigil existence would be like based on the race's history, characteristics, attributes and trends so far, there are always going to be night elves who do cities. I don't think you can realistically portray them as just forest people given their current history and trajectory, you'd have to introduce a new event that causes something similar to what led to eh long vigil.

They did the Long Vigil because they had to, not because they wanted to. That forest lifestyle, only a druid is content with it, the others you can see doing it diligently because of it's importance, or their guilt over it. But these are high civilization people who have to live a certain way because of the times and taking responsibility, not because they want to. They may grow to be okay with it, some even like it, but not all.

With the long vigil over, the need to to live like that is gone, the urgency, the mission all gone.. you see a druid can continue living like that because his primary purpose is dedicated to nature, which he loves.. his beauty and extravagance is nature. Elves are extravagant, they love beauty, the night elf druid revels in nature's complexity , abundance and beauty entirely, meanwhile others who may appreciate that also do that for their ow bodies their cities and buildings, not just their forests.

When they have other objective s or devotions, like Elune or studying the arcane and advancing, the forest does not become the most suitable or preferred seeing, living a life totally in nature gets boring.

Currently, there is no reason why ALL the night elves would stay in forest life. The only group that would are the druids. Sure hunters stay in the forests cos they're hunters.. the race has no reason to exclusively stick to the forests only in this modern era. only the druids.

Night elf lore traditionally has them with facets that do cities (Highborne/priest) and forests druids - and you have citizens that do either just like in any nation, some will stay in the village, rural area, community, some would be bored and move to the city.

You have to visit the character oft he night elves that blizzard gives you to determine what they would do. And night elves are benevolent, gracious, highly intelligent beings with a love for the arcane and nature. They have natural pre-disposition to the arcane and desire, so they will always go there, or some of them will always do, it's part of the race, and they all love nature, some would love it extremely like the druid do, some will like it but prefer other things like their arcane studies and instead would have cities with lots of gardens, flowers and trees inter mixed in areas. I suspect in Highborne areas we will have the most controlling of nature, but they would have nature, in neat little squares, and rows, etc, but in non-Highborne areas, people will also love buildings, but you will see an abundance of nature not seen in human cities or orcish one s - who like to get rid of the stuff, and more so than in Thalassian ones who do not culturally have the same nature intensive love, but they have it.

[Vaedan]

@Jackstraw, @Rhlor @Pheraz, @Tanaria @Alanar. @Ardenaso , @EnigmAddict, @Astranea , @ravenmoon , @MyWholeLifeIsThunder @Vaedan @Sagenod @Yarathir

Watercooler Night elves
Let's have an honest conversation about night elves here.

When delving into the whole night elf lore, racial set up and disposition in trying to map out what a post vigil existence would be like based on the race's history, characteristics, attributes and trends so far, there are always going to be night elves who do cities. I don't think you can realistically portray them as just forest people given their current history and trajectory, you'd have to introduce a new event that causes something similar to what led to eh long vigil.

They did the Long Vigil because they had to, not because they wanted to. That forest lifestyle, only a druid is content with it, the others you can see doing it diligently because of it's importance, or their guilt over it. But these are high civilization people who have to live a certain way because of the times and taking responsibility, not because they want to. They may grow to be okay with it, some even like it, but not all.

With the long vigil over, the need to to live like that is gone, the urgency, the mission all gone.. you see a druid can continue living like that because his primary purpose is dedicated to nature, which he loves.. his beauty and extravagance is nature. Elves are extravagant, they love beauty, the night elf druid revels in nature's complexity , abundance and beauty entirely, meanwhile others who may appreciate that also do that for their ow bodies their cities and buildings, not just their forests.

When they have other objective s or devotions, like Elune or studying the arcane and advancing, the forest does not become the most suitable or preferred seeing, living a life totally in nature gets boring.

Currently, there is no reason why ALL the night elves would stay in forest life. The only group that would are the druids. Sure hunters stay in the forests cos they're hunters.. the race has no reason to exclusively stick to the forests only in this modern era. only the druids.

Night elf lore traditionally has them with facets that do cities (Highborne/priest) and forests druids - and you have citizens that do either just like in any nation, some will stay in the village, rural area, community, some would be bored and move to the city.

You have to visit the character oft he night elves that blizzard gives you to determine what they would do. And night elves are benevolent, gracious, highly intelligent beings with a love for the arcane and nature. They have natural pre-disposition to the arcane and desire, so they will always go there, or some of them will always do, it's part of the race, and they all love nature, some would love it extremely like the druid do, some will like it but prefer other things like their arcane studies and instead would have cities with lots of gardens, flowers and trees inter mixed in areas. I suspect in Highborne areas we will have the most controlling of nature, but they would have nature, in neat little squares, and rows, etc, but in non-Highborne areas, people will also love buildings, but you will see an abundance of nature not seen in human cities or orcish one s - who like to get rid of the stuff, and more so than in Thalassian ones who do not culturally have the same nature intensive love, but they have it.

You are most likely right on that. Tyrande herself expressed something similar in WC3:

"Long ago, I swore to protect this land, Furion. I never had the luxury of sleeping through times of great peril."

Long Vigil elves were defined by their servise to the world. They saw themselves as ultimate protectors of Azeroth. As you said, they felt guilt, which over years transformed into hatred towards spellcasters, who were considered as potentional danger that can bring Legion back.

Following Third War and new contacts with mortal races of Azeroth, they actually found out that there are means how to wield magic safely. Now, I believe this is very crucial point in kaldorei history. Their powers over nature, previously unmatched, began to diminish since Nordrassil was severly damaged. I believe that lead night elves for the decision to join the Alliance, since they were aware of them losing portion of their powers, and they also wanted to explore the world. They learned to closely work with mages of the Alliance. They've seen magic can be wielded in a safe way.

As Highborne approached Tyrande few years later, she decided to accept them back. Night elves managed to get over their 10 thousand years of guilt. Sure, they required time to absorb all of that, but they did. They moved on.

Right now, I believe druidism and faith in Elune will remain central parts of their culture. Faith in Elune is what helped them to settle in shattered world post Sundering, and druidism gave them direction. Now, embracing arcane could give them new challenges ahead.

On the note of Elune worship - I'm most curious what will bring Night Warrior to the table. Duality of Elune was only vaguely hinted before, it was not really expressed until now. It is interesting that Dark Moon was never present in their culture, but it is still phase of the celestial cycle of the moon. It seems now that powers of Night Warrior are dangerous and volatile, so Tyrande is probably going to face major challenge in her faith, and with her, many night elves as well. Maybe it will weaken it's strong position in the kaldorei society, opening new space for arcane. Maybe it will open new paths of faith, allowing us to have night elf paladins. There are many posibilities.

[Tanaria]

The issue you've got is this:

Not all Night Elves were Druids, during Azshara's reign. In fact, very, very few were in fact Druids. Most Night Elves did live in major cities and were either Priestesses, Guards or Mages, such as we see with Silvermoon and Suramar - both of which were built by Highborne elves. (Yes, the High Elves looked different, but those who created the city and established themselves, were all from Zin-Azshari and possibly Eldre'Thalas, given the lore with Sensiria.)

But, most of those night elves who lived in those cities are long gone - either they are dead or if they were Highborne, they became other races entirely. The biggest ones being Naga, Satyr and High Elves. The Nightborne change was slow.

The only ones who remained "Highborne" were those who escaped Zin-Azshari, who became High Elves those in Eldre'Thalas, who took to siphoning fel magic and those in Shandaral, who annoyed the Blue dragons and got themselves killed.

Now, we're in a situation where it was deemed, by the then High Priestess, Tyrande at Mt Hyjal, that their lives would have to change because the Sundering had only just happened and the troubles of the arcane were finally being discussed and a change of life is what they did. In service to the Dragons, they pledged themselves to Nordrassil's defense and began living a life within the trees of Hyjal, Ashenvale, Moonglade and Darkshore. Now in that time, lifestyles have changed. Said lifestyles weren't enough for the Highborne and due to unfortunate events, they were exiled and established Quel'Thalas.
Also in this change of lifestyle, did change happen to the majority of the Moon Guard who became Druids and followed Malfurion into the dream. These were mostly done by Male Night Elves and it's possible many of the Female Night Elves became either Priestesses or Sentinels.

Now let's factor in the number of years: Azshara's Empire happened between 12,000 - 15,000 years ago. At the time of the Sundering, she had been the Queen of the Night Elves for 1000 years.
Now after the Sundering, the majority of Night Elves spent 10,000 years around Ashenvale with smaller outposts and more warrior-huntress, training camps. They became one with the trees and used that to adapt their trainee's fighting style. A good style, but has been seen to be bested by the likes of Garrosh Hellscream and his Bilgewater Goblins.

Now down South in Eldre'Thalas, things were going from bad to worse, to shockingly horrendous. They were growing lethargic and Tortheldrin decided to siphon off demonic power to sustain them which worked, but corrupted them and made them grow attached to fel and demonic magic. Whilst Quel'Thalas was flourishing, Eldre'Thalas was falling by the way-side with every passing day. This is just fact and then Tortheldrin grew more mad as he ordered Magister Kelendris to murder the Shen'dralar populace. Now, we keep saying that their is a big night elf mage presence, but we have to really face the facts about this.

Thrice over, the Shen'dralar have been brought down. Once by their Prince and twice by the Horde.
As of now - I'd say the Shen'dralar have just about grown even more rare than what they were before. It's possibly why the Warfront held very little focus on Night Elf Mages and primarily focused on Druids, Hunters, Archers and Wardens as well as the Night Elves' close alliances with the people of Gilneas. The majority of survivors of Teldrassil would have been those forces that the Warfront focused on, as the Mages were a rare site anyway. Sylvanas just made the Highborne as a whole, even more rare, considering Sarvonis and Ralara were two Highborne who she purposefully targeted, during the War of Thorns.

[Rhlor]

@Jackstraw, @Rhlor @Pheraz, @Tanaria @Alanar. @Ardenaso , @EnigmAddict, @Astranea , @ravenmoon , @MyWholeLifeIsThunder @Vaedan @Sagenod @Yarathir

Watercooler Night elves
Let's have an honest conversation about night elves here.

When delving into the whole night elf lore, racial set up and disposition in trying to map out what a post vigil existence would be like based on the race's history, characteristics, attributes and trends so far, there are always going to be night elves who do cities. I don't think you can realistically portray them as just forest people given their current history and trajectory, you'd have to introduce a new event that causes something similar to what led to eh long vigil.

They did the Long Vigil because they had to, not because they wanted to. That forest lifestyle, only a druid is content with it, the others you can see doing it diligently because of it's importance, or their guilt over it. But these are high civilization people who have to live a certain way because of the times and taking responsibility, not because they want to. They may grow to be okay with it, some even like it, but not all.

With the long vigil over, the need to to live like that is gone, the urgency, the mission all gone.. you see a druid can continue living like that because his primary purpose is dedicated to nature, which he loves.. his beauty and extravagance is nature. Elves are extravagant, they love beauty, the night elf druid revels in nature's complexity , abundance and beauty entirely, meanwhile others who may appreciate that also do that for their ow bodies their cities and buildings, not just their forests.

When they have other objective s or devotions, like Elune or studying the arcane and advancing, the forest does not become the most suitable or preferred seeing, living a life totally in nature gets boring.

Currently, there is no reason why ALL the night elves would stay in forest life. The only group that would are the druids. Sure hunters stay in the forests cos they're hunters.. the race has no reason to exclusively stick to the forests only in this modern era. only the druids.

Night elf lore traditionally has them with facets that do cities (Highborne/priest) and forests druids - and you have citizens that do either just like in any nation, some will stay in the village, rural area, community, some would be bored and move to the city.

You have to visit the character oft he night elves that blizzard gives you to determine what they would do. And night elves are benevolent, gracious, highly intelligent beings with a love for the arcane and nature. They have natural pre-disposition to the arcane and desire, so they will always go there, or some of them will always do, it's part of the race, and they all love nature, some would love it extremely like the druid do, some will like it but prefer other things like their arcane studies and instead would have cities with lots of gardens, flowers and trees inter mixed in areas. I suspect in Highborne areas we will have the most controlling of nature, but they would have nature, in neat little squares, and rows, etc, but in non-Highborne areas, people will also love buildings, but you will see an abundance of nature not seen in human cities or orcish one s - who like to get rid of the stuff, and more so than in Thalassian ones who do not culturally have the same nature intensive love, but they have it.

After 10,000 years almost all of the playable night elves developed a Druidic-style culture! There are Shendrelar who joined a few years ago but they are a small group and it was not even the whole of the Shendrelar.
and blizz understands that why most of the new customization shows druidic styles and a few highborne.
Malfurion is the racial leader and although he accepted the Highborne the cities built by the night elves led by him will look like darnassus mainly dominated by Druidic style and some trees as buildings. You might have a small highborne district with a mage tower reminiscent of the old imperial style, but it's mainly a druid-dominated culture.

[Mace]

You are most likely right on that. Tyrande herself expressed something similar in WC3:

"Long ago, I swore to protect this land, Furion. I never had the luxury of sleeping through times of great peril."

Long Vigil elves were defined by their servise to the world. They saw themselves as ultimate protectors of Azeroth. As you said, they felt guilt, which over years transformed into hatred towards spellcasters, who were considered as potentional danger that can bring Legion back.

Slight correction here, but significant - the guilt they felt never transformed into hatred against spellcasters and you can prove it.

1. That is never said - though I am aware players think so
2. There is hatred towards Highborne - not spellcasters for being spellcasters - whether arcane or otherwise.
3. Don't forget the ban on the arcane and preventing spellcasting is not due to hatred - it's considered absolutely necessary to prevent the Legion's return which to them means world destruction - so every diligent and thorough effort is translated through that lens - not the hatred lens.
4. Maiev Shadowsong is the only one who is written as hating spellcasters or the arcane itself, she is irrational and unhinged for doing so, the rest of the night elves hated the Highborne for their role, but forgave and accepted many (from Darth'remar's group, to other Highborne who stayed on, to the Shen'dralar)
5. The night elves show 0 hatred towards human arcane spell casters in WC3 when they have to fight with them, there is no hatred for spellcasters either in the WotA, in fact most of the Night elf resistance army was made of spell casters, Moonguard and others - so it's not spell casting they hated.

Banning was not because of hate, there is also no incentive to hate spell casters during the long vigil, only to eliminate them because of the Legion threat. once the Long vigil ends, you see 0 hatred. Tyrande and Malfurion help Kael'thas a powerful spell casters

6. Humans, Draenei, Gnomes all have prolific spellcasters, there is 0 mention, portrayal of hatred towards them. Only Maiev is recorded as hating all spellcasters.

Understanding the reason for the ban is very important. If you think they hate spellcasters, you will have trouble accepting why the ban on arcane is lifted, you will think night elves don't want to learn arcane magic, and ultimately it would feed an incorrect perception that they're not arcane inclined or based, which is not what the story or lore is telling us about them.

Following Third War and new contacts with mortal races of Azeroth, they actually found out that there are means how to wield magic safely. Now, I believe this is very crucial point in kaldorei history. Their powers over nature, previously unmatched, began to diminish since Nordrassil was severely damaged. I believe that lead night elves for the decision to join the Alliance, since they were aware of them losing portion of their powers, and they also wanted to explore the world. They learned to closely work with mages of the Alliance. They've seen magic can be wielded in a safe way.

As Highborne approached Tyrande few years later, she decided to accept them back. Night elves managed to get over their 10 thousand years of guilt. Sure, they required time to absorb all of that, but they did. They moved on.

The problem with accepting the Highborne was hard not because they use magic, but because of the role they played in the legion invasion that destroyed the night elves' civilization. For the Shen'dralar, it's in part because they were members of the caste, but it was specifically because they did nothing while the Queen rolled out her demonic invasion, only acting when their city was attacked. the Shen'dralar were not complicit in actually summoning the demons, but there is anger towards the caste, there isn't anger towards the Kirin'tor, the Draenei mages and others.

Oh and btw, whiles it is true they would have realised after the 3rd war that there were safe ways to wield magic, this info is only valuable retrospectively. This is not what makes them change their mind on practicing magic, or suppressing it. Because the whole reason they banned magic, was not because they thought it was unsafe to handle, but because using it would bring the Legion back, and the entire Long Vigil mission is undertaken to prevent that return. This return happens in Wc3, which is why night elves aren't telling human and high elf mages not to use arcane magic, in the battle, they haven't suddenly realised these races can handle it safely, the whole danger of the arcane was not in safe handling, but in preventing what had come anyway, and so the need for stopping it was meaningless from then on.

Truth be told, the night elves could have started using the arcane then, but it wasn't until the Shen'dralar approached them, warned them of the Cataclysm and the threat tot heir lands was so great, they could no longer ignore or stall using a powerful tool that they are the original masters of, especially with a highly skilled group of night elves who hadn't stopped using it making themselves available, and also importantly, were free of corruption and addiction. Which would have been minor, but important enough concerns for them.

Besides, I don't think those night elves would suffer the humiliation of having humans teach or upgrade them on what they would consider as "their magic".

Right now, I believe druidism and faith in Elune will remain central parts of their culture. Faith in Elune is what helped them to settle in shattered world post Sundering, and druidism gave them direction. Now, embracing arcane could give them new challenges ahead.

Agreed 100%, I think this is where people mis-understand me, because I am often challenging the perceptions people have on the night elves in relation to magic and the arcane, they think I am pushing for night elf race to become like the blood elves or the pre-sundering era invasion period or what they perceive that era to be like.

not at all, my motivation is because I am aware of many wrong assumptions concerning night elves, easy to miss if you don't know the detail and lore and want to offer insight because people actually think that night elf some how means Wood elf because they saw lots of trees and wood life in WC3 and classic, but sadly because they didn't read the lore , novels too that have most of night elf lore, and the texts, the context for the setting is mis-construed and often mis-interpreted, and as such it is most challenged causing longer discussions or arguments that prolong the discussion as I try to uncover these things and show a fuller picture of the lore many may not realise because they don't know or rely on summaries like that of Wowpedia instead of buying the books, novels, chronicles and reading them like Idid.

Saying that I 100% agree, druidism and faith in Elune will remain central parts of the night elves, they are core parts of the night elves, the thing is, so is the arcane, but it is has not been obvious in the in-game presentation - because you see trees and nature magic, and haven't seen much arcane display, but it's there. a simple example is WC3, most people have no idea the well of Eternity is the centre of the night elf story and purpose for everything you see about them, the Legion and guarding the well is why they're in forest and not in smashingly amazing night elf cities, but most people think it's the tree Nordrassil that they were guarding - because you see the big tree in the picture, not the well it is grown over, and if you're not actually paying attention to the story or read the lore, it's lost on you, so you think the arcane has no relevance at all, and finding out will shock you.

There are so many other indications, like the Moonwells, also arcane waters, the glowy eyes of silver that are because of the arcane, the starfall, starshards spells even non-arcane wielding night elves like priests and druids can cast are all indications. Then ofc there is the Highborne, and all the pre-sundering lore, the fact that night elves have never changed since they fully evolved as beings from the arcane waters, infused with it and disposed to it.

the story is one of the more interesting in wow, and i't's a long tale, but the full story gives you the full context, not just WC3 which is an even t that is over in a volume. How they were progressed in wow should be an indication, Night elves are are introduced in classic, with no real updates to the race till cata, so basically cata is the next stage of the story after Ashenvale quests in classic, and there the Highborne come in, as for Legion you see a lot more.

The signs are all there. They have 3 cores, the arcane, nature and Elune. But that's not all there is to them, it means they are magical at the core, which is why they make such great fel users in the demon hunters.

On the note of Elune worship - I'm most curious what will bring Night Warrior to the table. Duality of Elune was only vaguely hinted before, it was not really expressed until now. It is interesting that Dark Moon was never present in their culture, but it is still phase of the celestial cycle of the moon. It seems now that powers of Night Warrior are dangerous and volatile, so Tyrande is probably going to face major challenge in her faith, and with her, many night elves as well. Maybe it will weaken it's strong position in the kaldorei society, opening new space for arcane. Maybe it will open new paths of faith, allowing us to have night elf paladins. There are many posibilities.

I am curious too. Elune was famous for the arcane spells the priest cast in WC3, then we see some holy ones in WotA trilogy, then wow comes and they tell us all priests cast holy spells (tbh I think was a cop out because they didn't want to design different things for priest classes of different faiths, so based all on the human one, kind like how all druids are based on the night elf version (only inventing new versions with the Zandalari and Drust) - what games like SWTOR did by giving completely new identities to what is exactly the same class was something that original systems creators didn't do, but it would have solved that issue.

WotA does mention Pain Mistresses in the order of Elune that wield a shadowy (now void) magic, but nothing more, so this Dark side of Elune signifying void is interesting. So you have Arcane, Light and Void associated strongly with Elune. However she is still mysterious.. Very mysterious. Even what the priest side of the order of Elune is quite mysterious. We know and see a lot of the Sentinels and huntresses - cos that's easy, not the priestesses, their faith, how it ties into the arcane, the star culture etc - huge unknown. We know some of the history, Elune is discovered by the Night elves from studying the Well of Eternity, she is strongly identified with the arcane they learn, and is believed to dwell within the Well, even though the Moon above is her symbol. We have consistently seen priestesses of the moon whenever shown from WC3 to current, using arcane spells (latest edition is in Naz'jatar - the world boss priestess, before that it's Tyrande in the 8.1 Night Warrior quest line, then Tyrande again in End times, then NElf priest starshards ability, then WC3 Starfall.

But it seems these arcane abilities aren't limited to priests either, night elf druids use them, in fact their druidism is based on the balance between arcane and nature in a night and day cycle stars/moon and sun, furthermore when we meet some Nightborne and Moonguard arcane users, some of their abilities also call on the stars and moon - indicating that this is a core racial facet of the night elves in some Elune/Arcane connection - and it makes sense too because of their name Children of the Stars and their arcane origin and aptitude which is very much a part of them.

When the main group (not all night elves, just the main group) ban the use of arcane magic for spells from the Well, it's to prevent the legion returning and realising there is still a well, however they are still connected and around the source itself directly and the Moonwells they treasure so, none of the night elves' natural arcane predisposition or characteristics are lost because they don't practice the arcane, they are still arcane in essence, with that part of them, the only thing is that group is just out of practice using it for spells from the well of eternity. Says nothing about using the stars and moon as your source - afterall that won't light Azseroth up now would it.

This is why I wrote the section on Arcane. Nature and Elune in the night elves in the original post if you want to look at it. The entire OP is collecting the information we have that shows and points to the arcane core, and how events like the Legion invasion, WC3, the long Vigil era etc don't mean that the night elves don't have this as a core part of them, and the indications that point to th is.

I also note specifically, that of the alliance aligned night elf group, the arcane is a core part of them however the practice of it isn't widespread in their society - but many do not understand how these two statements are different. But it's not hard, you can have nature love as a core part of you and not be a druid because you are a priest or craftsman or a mage, like wise you can have the arcane (as in arcane magic - not skill using it0 as acore part of your being, yourDNA, your make up) but not be a mage - you ca n still be a druid that love nature a lot and still have the arcane as a core part of you, in your heart, your love for nature exceeds that for the arcane, but you have natural racial disposition to both.

This is the duality of the night elves the lore shows us and sets up - and it is what we see consistent in them regardless of whether pre-sundering era (where it talks about their great forests and cities weaving arcane with nature magic) or the Long vigil, when the practice was banned, but arcane magic through the Well of Eternity and Moonwells were used extensively to passively enhance nature and the world and the night elves were linked to this whether they used the power for spells or not.

It's there, it's just not easy to spot if you're only looking at the scenery and seeing forests, but not understanding the context to why they are there nor caring exactly what these people are written to be. A lot see forests and just think.. ah ! Wood Elves - that's it - cos they're in forests, love nature -- look, they even banned the arcane - wood elves - and pay attention to nothing else. So when Highborne join, cities like Suramar pop up, they're shocked, and some are so in disbelief, they're convinced, well, these aren't night elves, or say, well that was the distant past, it's not night elves any more, what they are saying is there is nothing of the arcane in night elves, which is clearly false. They've very simply pegged night elves as wood elves thinking that the word night means wood because this I what they see in the first few graphics, and that's how other fantasies do it, therefore that's how it is in wow, never thinking beyond that. And lore behold, the lore tells you, shows you it is so much more than that.

More, so much more than meets the eye.
@Rhlor - I think you will find my responses to Vaedan above quite helpful - if you decide to read it all.

- - - Updated - - -

Thrice over, the Shen'dralar have been brought down. Once by their Prince and twice by the Horde.
As of now - I'd say the Shen'dralar have just about grown even more rare than what they were before. It's possibly why the Warfront held very little focus on Night Elf Mages and primarily focused on Druids, Hunters, Archers and Wardens as well as the Night Elves' close alliances with the people of Gilneas. The majority of survivors of Teldrassil would have been those forces that the Warfront focused on, as the Mages were a rare site anyway. Sylvanas just made the Highborne as a whole, even more rare, considering Sarvonis and Ralara were two Highborne who she purposefully targeted, during the War of Thorns.

Commonality or rarity of the Shen'dralar doesn't change the night elf at its core. It is situation that dictated the lifestyle of the Long vigil, not a racial transformation to a new type of elf - in fact the druidism practised in it wasn't even new, it's from the early pre-sundering era periods, - it's just life without arcane conveniences and spellcasting to prevent the legion's return.

The night elves don't get drained of arcane talent or arcane aptitude.. so even if their society has few arcane users now, without any reason to not practice arcane, you will see the number of arcane users rise to an equilibrium point between arcane user and nature users. The priests seem to use both arcane and light so they lean more in the arcane realm, but most of their order roams the forests, few are temple based.

We saw the night elf Highborne numbers rise as the old Highborne Darnassians returned to the caste, and many new novices started studying - because they have the talent, which couldn't be used before WC3 because of the ban, but can now.

And they have teachers in the Shen'dralar. If the Shen'dralar were all gone, they'd have the Kirin'tor, the Draenei, the Gnomes, the humans , the high elves and void elves to teach them and their number would still grow.

if they had none of these, they would teach themselves just like they did, if there is any race that can self-teach themselves magic, it's the very race that first studied and mastered it.

So, it will rise. Now a rise doesn't mean dominance, like in pre-sundering times, but I expect an equilibrium, a balance, because harmony and balance are key aspects of the night elves - it's a druid foundation, they aren't the only key aspects, but they are the ones that are most valued and upheld by the druids, discipline and humility, progress and development are the others - with the elven natural benevolence, grace (beauty) and high intelligence the characteristics that drive this.

[See the last section of the OP - for more detail - inf act, read the whole thing again.]