[Spoilers] Night elves new capital

[Mace]

regarding the nightborne this is a lie and you know it! most of the horde players myself elves.

You are not every horde elf fan, I'm not always referring to you buddy, if it's not you, it isnt you, there are others though who were and still are. I try not to generalise but sometimes end up doing so anyway. So I apologise

[Combatbutler]

A state that was departure from their character and induced by addiction, which once gone, we witness in every night elf group, sees a return to sanity and original baseline character which characterises a group like theirs consistently for 10k years.

So they did not have a hand in the creation of the emerald nightmare? In their arrogance sought to terraform entire landscapes, which blew up into their faces spectacularly, in their foolishness did not wake the aqir or in sheer selfishness tried to regain immortality, by planting a new world tree with Nozdormu outright denying them. Good to know

We cant assume total human attributes to night elves knowing full well there are differences, even when they show fallibility, like every race, even titans and Naaru are capable of in warcraft. We must always be prepared to think from the races stand point and attributes not normal humanity in the places where they differ.

The night elves aren't the unfailing beings you want them to be plain and simple while they have quite a few positive attributes, they are also spiteful, prone to anger, arrogant and quite dismissive.

[Mace]

the one who is a druid and racial leader of a society whose culture clearly has Druidic-style buildings. But do not worry, think about what you would like the most.

we have different points of view now we just have to wait and see what blizz does

Yes, but druids dont do cities, nor are they big on buildings, he is not going to swoop in and demand trees get utilised for houses so night elves who dont appreciate nature to the extent he does can be forced to live that way.

Druids perpetuate nature in its wildest, purest form as imagined by titan in her dream. They love its majesty and beauty seek to restore what was wrongfully destroyed and preserve it originally.

You see them sleeping underground I caved or at the bottom of trees, never using tree homes in large qua cities, the trees are living and have souls, they have am attitude of use only if we absolutely must and mo resources around.

They would likely view the bear sculpture on the Darnassus bank as an abuse, distorting a tree for aesthetic purposes and pride, maybe a stagjelm move, but not a normal druid.

Why have a city after a the druidic culture that doesnt require one, and whose work isnt in one? Why would a druid live there or want to anyway where the great wilds are his devotion?

AMD the other night elves who love nature but want to live in cities, is converting trees to homes the only way of realising that? Or are beautiful marbled homes over flowing with vines, plants, flowers etc, in city fused with nature, with parks and gardens an alternative and more acceptable way for both druid and non-druid night elf for a city?
Look at this picture




This is nature integrated with the sort of building and structure you expect in a city. It doesn't need to be a tree home suited for a forest, nor does it need to be a tree home city for night elves to still have a druidic core and half of their race. The druid halve's habitat is not the city, but, the city folk being night elves who also love nature, despite not being druids, will have regular night elf homes (not human homes, nor draenei homes, night elf city homes - not night elf forest homes) filled with nature


And this. Now ake a look at this.






See a beautiful city, look at all the green spaces amidst the city scape? there are grasslands, and trees, parks, look at the roof tops of some of the buildings, some of them are flat and have gardens on top, trees even. Is this not a vision of how nature is part of a full on city? Isn't this night elven? Look at other things like the star night domes? etc.



Is this not acceptable for a city with bustling with natural life. A city, not a forest...you do realise it is a city we are discussing, not a forest of trees.

This is what a night elf city IS. that's what blizzard designed for night elves, this reflects them, and I want this for their cities. Now in their forests, for a forest dwelling community - this is in appropriate, I don't want the forest turned into a major urban hub. No, I want very few homes, as unobtrusive as possible, so I can have a much of nature as possible, undisturbed. It's not a bad thing if there is an odd home here or there, whether a tree home reflecting druids, or a marble home for say maybe a priest or craftsman or Highborne type living remote out o f the area, like we see in Vals'harah, a one off, possibly here and there is okay, but as a druid I wouldn't want more than that.

I would prefer that if they were to gather in numbers, or needed too, that they build a city so they are concentrated in a spot rather than sporadically upending nature in the wilds. I would support their city effort, even prefer it in a place where ruins exist or there aren't trees currently around. I'll help them built it, and help grow nature around it in gardens, parks, vines etc. And be happy for them to live the life and do the things they need for the nation and their professions/callings in a population centre, while I go back to mine.

Living in harmony.

[Rhlor]

You are not every horde elf fan, I'm not always referring to you buddy, if it's not you, it isnt you, there are others though who were and still are. I try not to generalise but sometimes end up doing so anyway. So I apologise

but you know it and you cannot deny it! It was not the horde players who called out nightborne as a playable race for the horde! It was the alliance players who from the first moment asked to swap faction elf models. alliance players obsessed with the blood elf model got what they wanted, now the nightborne are part of the horde and i have my rogue nightborne! and I enjoy wonderful things like the short story of lorthemar and thalyssra having a romantic night in suramar! and alliance players can have the elves they always wanted to have.

If you read the official forums generally most of the alliance players (mainly human) dislike the night elf players, it is not the elves that they wanted their faction in the first place, that is why they did not care about what for many it was logical to think that it should be the night elf subrace, they wanted the blood elf model in the alliance and that is why they asked for the nightborne model in the horde

[Skytotem]

*Video*

Yes they're all uncorrupted SPIRITUALLY but none of them got their bodies back in the physical world. That's why I am concerned with whether Shaladrassil is fixed in the MATERIAL world, not whether the people who died or got corrupted are mentally/spiritually fixed.

[Rhlor]

Yes they're all uncorrupted SPIRITUALLY but none of them got their bodies back in the physical world. That's why I am concerned with whether Shaladrassil is fixed in the MATERIAL world, not whether the people who died or got corrupted are mentally/spiritually fixed.

if the nightmare is clean in the dream it must also be clean in the material world.

[Vaedan]

But it is the only one. Everything the Night Elves did since the Sundering has been around protecting the natural balance of the world. That's the very reason why they abandonned arcane magic for nature based magic. That's the very core of their culture. Even the cult of Elune is entwined with druidism as a philosophy. Elune is Malorne's mate and Cenarius' mother. She's also close to Ysera, keeper of the Emerald Dream, which the druids help to protect.

I disagree. The group which dedicated to protecting natural balance of the world were druids only. Sisterhood of Elune was on the Long Vigil, which was about guarding the Well of Eternity and prevent second Legion's invasion.

What I believe is more correct that what you say, is that elvish faith in Elune shaped their approach of druidism, not the other way around. At first, elves began to worship Elune (and use arcane) long before they started to train as druids. Secondly, we already witnessed druidic orders who are independent on Elune, like Thornspeakers, dinomancers, and darkspear trolls also draw their power from loa. If druidism would affect Elune worship, you could see similar stuff within all drudic races.

What all night elves share is their faith in Elune. All elves believe in the Goddess. As you said, she is a mother of Cenarius, so it is natural that her son would form teachings similar to hers. There are groups of elves who are certainly not druidic, like priestesses, sentinels, wardens, highborne. We see that every one of these groups display belief in Elune, but many of them does not strive to protect balance of nature. The most significant part of druidism is the connection to the Emerald Dream. All those groups lacks it. Would all elves be druidic, all of them would be able to tap into the Dream.

It is also not true that they abandoned Arcane magic because Nature magic. They banned arcane to prevent its reckless abuse which lead to Legion's invasion. You are right that there were many elves who were arcane users, but adapted to nature magics. They did it because it was only magical way they had at the moment.

While it is true that druidism was once only practiced by men, the tenets of druidism and the respect the druids had for the Ancients were shared by all Night Elves. Same for the priestesses. While they were the only ones presiding over the rituals dedicated to Elune, all Night Elves worshipped Elune. And now a few Highborne returned into the fold and are beginning to train new mages. But these new mages were all raised as nature loving Night Elves. They will be mages concerned with nature. It's like the draenei shamans. They do not stop worshipping the Light just because they now can commune with the Elements. As Velen said, it's a new way of serving the Light.

In the real Middle Ages, society was divided in three estates. The Clergy and the Nobility had very distinct roles. Yet the nobles were still worshipping Jesus Christ. And every aspect of society, including art and architecture, showed that catholicism even though not everyone was presiding over mass or singing the psalms at vespers.

You see, you acknowledge the strict division in their society. I fully agree that those new elf mages will be different in their approach of magic. Definitely. Even those Highborne who rejoined the society has changed. Kaldorei will now tend to use magic in more balanced way, to be more in tune with nature. It's not exclusive way. You can combine arcane and nature. We've seen it several times.

You also need to remember that the very reason for arcane ban, which was lifted few years ago, is no longer threat. Legion has been defeated.

Well, they already do, as you said. So why should Blizzard change anything? But Night Elves never were about big sprawling cities and palatial homes in the first place, not since the Sundering. And now that they were greatly crippled, I doubt they could do it even if they wanted to. Also, in the beginning, the concept was that the Night Elves were growing their buildings rather than building them. That meant wood.

I'm not saying they should all they were doing so far. They shall expand on what they are doing - it is natural way of progress. Their story progressed, they should show the signs of progression as well. If we are shown anything about kaldorei, they are able to adapt to new challenges.

Their population numbers are unclear. Blizzard really didn't addressed it properly, we only have Tyrande's concern at the end of Elegy, while she was unsure how many elves actually survived. It is really not solid spot for speculation, since it can be interpreted in different ways. In the end, it does not matter, since most of races are able to rebuild their nations from the brink of extinction, like blood elves, orcs, etc, without more explanation needed.

[Ardenaso]

But, as you can clearly see from the map image there, the mapping of WC3 to WoW is pretty far from 1:1. Azshara in WC3 looks nothing like it does in WoW, and Winterspring isn't even geographically in the same place as in WoW.

This perhaps?



but then again that chapter takes place in a very long shoreline with at least 3 sea-side villages

[Monster Hunter]

With humans, who arent benevolent, graceful, near immortal, highly intelligent beings who unilaterally take full responsibilities for their actions and self correct the bad attitudes and behaviours that led to such corruption.

However beautiful art, craftsmanship, nature , gardens, buildings or cityscape are not the things purged or unwanted. Neither are useful abilities and powers when the need for them is necessary, useful and beneficial in an age they can once more be utilised

except the night elves are non of those first things, and as for the second yes those are the things that usually go first. the civilisation usually becomes hyper focused on the practical with little time for the ephemeral. for example the Brutalist architecture of the 1950's in Europe after the decimation of nations in ww2

[Hellspawn]

except the night elves are non of those first things, and as for the second yes those are the things that usually go first. the civilisation usually becomes hyper focused on the practical with little time for the ephemeral. for example the Brutalist architecture of the 1950's in Europe after the decimation of nations in ww2

After the war in WC3 were the legion ravaged their land they build a giant Tree with a city onto it (Blood Elf did not change their building style either after the scourged killed 90% of them). Comparing to real history is pretty pointless with warcraft, its better to compare to event we had in Warcraft past.

[Tuor]

You really just ignored the other part of the city that’s completely made out of stone? The temple, city gates and bridge?

Only the warrior's Terrace and Elune's Temple was made of stone, all other buildings were made out of living trees.

[Hellspawn]

Only the warrior's Terrace and Elune's Temple was made of stone, all other buildings were made out of living trees.

And some smaller buildings around the center as well.

We also got some info about the inspiration for it from Metzen:
The architecture of the night elves, according to an interview with Chris Metzen, draws its influences from both Nordic and Japanese building style. This is most obviously apparent in the night elf city of Darnassus, which includes several tower buildings in the style of the Pagoda at Yakushi-ji (薬師寺). Metzen specifically based elements of the night elves' architecture on the city of Asgard from Marvel Comics (in turn based on the realm of the same name from Norse mythology) as depicted in Walter Simonson's run on The Mighty Thor.
https://wow.gamepedia.com/Night_elf

[Aucald]

This perhaps?

https://i.imgur.com/lm614aG.jpg

but then again that chapter takes place in a very long shoreline with at least 3 sea-side villages

That looks like a possible candidate to me, especially given that it's closer to Felwood (where Illidan was transformed into a demon after consuming the Skull of Gul'dan) and it wouldn't require him to pass through Hyjal which at that time was the nominal home of the Night Elves. Obviously there's going to be an issue of scale either way. But since it's a mostly inaccessible and unexplored parcel of land it seems a good fit for where Nendis might've been. Though I don't think anything is currently there in-game.

[Mace]

except the night elves are non of those first things, and as for the second yes those are the things that usually go first. the civilisation usually becomes hyper focused on the practical with little time for the ephemeral. for example the Brutalist architecture of the 1950's in Europe after the decimation of nations in ww2

Actually they are. This is what the lore describes them as (see Chronicles, WC3, WotA) Azshara got addicted in that era, and Malfurion took his stance because his people had stop being their usual selves. This can happen, addiction is what is responsible, although what led to that came out of arrogance. Highborne loved the special favour of the Queen and grew very arrogant from it (it was an imbalance she created in her people when she elevated arcane capability as the most noble and highest standard of the empire, therefore giving cause to those who were gifted in that area to feel more important, better, more relevant of their higher social standing - but many of them instead of acting with the true nobility of their position, started lording it over their kin, it didn't help that all other night elves adored the Queen so much they would easily be jealous of those she favoured putting them on a higher pedestal and opening themselves up to discrimination their jealousy would fuel in their elites), so when she got all obsessive leading to addiction, many of those closer to her followed suit. Their attitudes changed and they really became evil crossing the line when the partnered with the Legion - the Azshara we see in the echoes in Zin'Azshari - which is during the invasion period (actually near the end of it) is far from gracious and bright, light of lights only in name judging by the attitudes of her followers - but the people generally blamed the Highborne not the queen herself until the very end, even some in Zin'Azshari as ghosts, killed by her actions still don't quite believe the truth).

Yes, elves can change too, but most elves returned to who they were, you see measure of that even in the high elves, and certainly in the Farondis - benevolence isn't mutually exclusive with arcane practice, in fact it's got nothing to do with it, it's a character trait. However there are things that can change your character - love of power, arrogance, addiction - if you ignore spiritual discipline, one of the most useful things about their religion, you can get lost in this state and change.

Harder for night elves imo, but once changed, hard to change back because of how long lived they are too. But not impossible if you get shocked back to your senses, which is what the legion invasion did to every night elf who didn't side with the Queen, including Highborne who didn't (i.e. Farondis, Shen'dralar, Sunstrider, Suramar Highborne who stayed with Elisande, Menaar ones too), in addition to all the other castes who survived. It's a similar thing to what people sometimes say about us in our world that it would take an alien invasion or an apocalypse type event to shock people out of this silly madness eating us apart. However we aren't described as benevolent at our core, the Night elves are.

Also being benevolent doesn't mean you're locked into being gracious by force, without sense or self determination either. Those very benevolent night elves are very scary when their world and precious things are in jeopardy, this is what wisdom and courage produce. Benevolent is not the only trait of the night elves but it is a dominant one. The others are Grace (i.e. beauty love of an perpetuation of) and High intelligence.

Read my topic here: Night Elves, Magic & the Arcane - Common Misconceptions & Things You Didn't Consider where I cover the characteristics, attributes and tenets observed in the night elves as stated and shown in the lore. You might find it interesting.

[Frontenac]

I disagree. The group which dedicated to protecting natural balance of the world were druids only. Sisterhood of Elune was on the Long Vigil, which was about guarding the Well of Eternity and prevent second Legion's invasion.

And they did so with the help of Cenarius, his children and the Ancients. And when they first saw the Orcs cutting down their trees, they attacked. And preventing the Legion's return is pretty much protecting the world and nature.

What I believe is more correct that what you say, is that elvish faith in Elune shaped their approach of druidism, not the other way around. At first, elves began to worship Elune (and use arcane) long before they started to train as druids. Secondly, we already witnessed druidic orders who are independent on Elune, like Thornspeakers, dinomancers, and darkspear trolls also draw their power from loa. If druidism would affect Elune worship, you could see similar stuff within all drudic races.

Are we talking about the Night Elves or the Trolls? If we are talking about the Night Elves, there is no reason to bring the Trolls into the conversation. Who taught druidism to the Night Elves? Cenarius. Who is Cenarius? The son of Elune and Malorne. Now you are right that the Night Elves worshipped Elune long before they became druids. Elune was linked to the arcane magic coming from the Well of Eternity. Then the Sundering came. The Well of Eternity (well, the first one) is gone. What replaced it was not desired and seen as a threat. The link between Elune and her son Cenarius became culturaly far more important than the link between Elune and the Well of Eternity. Which got covered by a gigantic tree blessed by the Aspects. One of which is Ysera, close friend to Elune, she even wears her crescent on her brow, and protectors of druids. And then you have Elune's creation of the Moonkins, and her relation with some animal spirits, like Lady Sathrah, the spider favored of Elune who has gone mad and whom we have to kill and offer her spinerets in sacrifice. Will you tell me that the faith in Elune has not been informed by the Night Elves druidism?

What all night elves share is their faith in Elune. All elves believe in the Goddess. As you said, she is a mother of Cenarius, so it is natural that her son would form teachings similar to hers. There are groups of elves who are certainly not druidic, like priestesses, sentinels, wardens, highborne. We see that every one of these groups display belief in Elune, but many of them does not strive to protect balance of nature

And yet in Darkshore, before Cataclysm, there was Gwennyth Bly'Leggonde who would ask you to investigate the death of sea creatures:

Majestic sea creatures are known to launch themselves at the Darkshore coastline, beached there until they die. Lately, these beasts have been washing ashore in ever-increasing numbers. I've been sent here by the Temple of the Moon to investigate, but the presence of murlocs along the water has made my research difficult.

There is a giant creature washed ashore just south of Auberdine that is ringed by the foul Greymist murlocs. Could you go there and retrieve bones from the creature for our study?

The most significant part of druidism is the connection to the Emerald Dream. All those groups lacks it. Would all elves be druidic, all of them would be able to tap into the Dream.

I said that Night Elven culture was, as a whole druidic, not that everyone was a druid. So no, not everyone is able to tap into the Emerald Dream. One can share the druids' vision of the world without being a druid himself. You don't have to be a priest to be catholic, or rabbi to be a Jew...

It is also not true that they abandoned Arcane magic because Nature magic.

I never said that. I said the night elves abandoned arcane magics for nature magic, not because of it.

They banned arcane to prevent its reckless abuse which lead to Legion's invasion. You are right that there were many elves who were arcane users, but adapted to nature magics. They did it because it was only magical way they had at the moment.

Malfurion never was a mage to begin with, and not all mages became druids, if even there was one. It is not because you have a knowledge of arcane magic that you have an affinity with nature magic. Illidan never was able to use it, even though he began his formation with Cenarius.

You see, you acknowledge the strict division in their society.

Their division is one of function, not of philosophy, of their vision of the world.

I fully agree that those new elf mages will be different in their approach of magic. Definitely. Even those Highborne who rejoined the society has changed. Kaldorei will now tend to use magic in more balanced way, to be more in tune with nature. It's not exclusive way. You can combine arcane and nature. We've seen it several times.

You also need to remember that the very reason for arcane ban, which was lifted few years ago, is no longer threat. Legion has been defeated.

The Legion has been defeated (or has it?), but the demons remain a threat. Anyway, it's not because arcane is now permitted that Night Elves will precipitate themselves in some magic academy. It will be there, but arcane will remain secondary.

I'm not saying they should all they were doing so far. They shall expand on what they are doing - it is natural way of progress. Their story progressed, they should show the signs of progression as well. If we are shown anything about kaldorei, they are able to adapt to new challenges.

Their population numbers are unclear. Blizzard really didn't addressed it properly, we only have Tyrande's concern at the end of Elegy, while she was unsure how many elves actually survived. It is really not solid spot for speculation, since it can be interpreted in different ways. In the end, it does not matter, since most of races are able to rebuild their nations from the brink of extinction, like blood elves, orcs, etc, without more explanation needed.

Their story progressed all right: they are crippled. They have suffered a terrible blow. What they should show then is not a sprawling city with imperial-style stone buildings (with or without trees) as if nothing happened, but a slow effort at rebuilding with some victories to show there's hope for the Night Elves.

Anyway, I don't believe that big cities go well with the Night Elves. Darnassus was okay, but when I think about a night elf "city", I think of something like Caras Galadhon in Lord of the Rings. But they will not add a real capital city in game with an AH, bank, trainers and all the amenities just to see it deserted by the players. They have learned their lessons with Silvermoon and the Exodar.

[Feanoro]

But they will not add a real capital city in game with an AH, bank, trainers and all the amenities just to see it deserted by the players. They have learned their lessons with Silvermoon and the Exodar.

The problem with Darnassus, Silvermoon, and Exodar is that they were far from everything relevant. In vanilla, everyone was either in SW with its awful navigation and layout or in IF (as God intended), with SW propped up by Rallying Cry of the Dragonslayer. From Cata onwards, they pushed everyone into SW and Org by putting everything relevant in those cities alone.

[Sluvs]

It was Suramar they lived in for a long time, where Tyrande was born and the Shadowsongs also come from. The Stormrage twins were born in Val'sharah when their parents were travelling g to Suramar, and the twins lived in the city, but horde fans really dont want night elves associated in the city most relevant to the playable faction.

A very minor cosmetic change to night elves to produce Nightborns was enough for so many to forget and ignore all the kaldorei symbology and force a much greater connection to the blood elves than the very night elves they were. Was astonishing to witness. Mostly perpetuated by horde elf fans, wanting Suramar, and blizzard eventually obliged and I'll bet messed up their own plans. Well they can fix it.

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It's a druidic community zone. Malfurion mentions this. The priesthood temple there seems to have only recently been moved back into since it looks very ru down in a ruined type state. They probably there when they brought the tears of Elune there. I suspect though that some priests have always been amongst that community

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But Rhlor, I am not advocating night elves abandon any style at all, I am saying that rural styles shouldn't be used in their cities, but their cultural urban styles they used in the pre-sundering times should continue to be used in cities they build, like they started in Darnassus, but now go further now Highborne are back, while the rural styles continue on in forest community villages and stand alone homes.

It is not abandoning anything, but making use of everything, each in it's own appropriate place among it's relevant communities. It's okay for night elves to have both. They are not locked to one style, one class or one culture, they are big race, and ancient, they've got very well defined traditions and themes that have great development and set places befitting their great age and intelligence, therefore this must be presented carefully and well to reflect that...not just lumped in because some casual followers of the race think night elf = forest so city should be trees with no consideration to anything the rich and detailed lore tells us and the way they are developing and being restored in this new current era

- - - Updated - - -


I disagree a night elf city has to have druidic styles in it, cities dont fit the druid style and cause, and in a night elf city, any would probably live in a park or near one if their spouse was a city worker.

Like Darnassus, at most the druids would have a building to serve as HQ, and I would have that in the cities biggest park or in one overlooking it. It doesnt have to be a tree home and the style of what we have is not designed for a city. This is fine, it has its place in areas where druidic communities live in amongst nature with their families and continue their work in nature, which is why you wont see any druids in cities unless they have to be there. (There is a reason you dont see Aldrassil style buildings I Darnassus, but only in the heart of a forest.) - that's its place in that sort of location for that purpose.

Understand night elf culture, it's very detailed for a video game race and a measure of thought put into it, which is good, that's how blizzard should be detailed and consistent with every race.

I'm not so sure about that. It seems to me that they were built for the horde in the first place, in fact, tyrande was not really that nice to them. Not to mention they represent a lot of what NEs hate in the highborne but with the dial turned up to eleven.

[Tanaria]

Not to mention, she calls them "Mana Addicts" behind their backs.
What a way to greet these people, Tyrande. Not only do you insult the natives who are in a desperate situation, you also indirectly insult your colleagues in the High Elves and your tense colleagues in the Blood Elves. The latter of which, has brought an actual army to siege the city, whereas she just had a bunch of Sentinels and Vereesa bought a small battalion of Mages.

[Moonrage]

Not to mention, she calls them "Mana Addicts" behind their backs.
What a way to greet these people, Tyrande. Not only do you insult the natives who are in a desperate situation, you also indirectly insult your colleagues in the High Elves and your tense colleagues in the Blood Elves. The latter of which, has brought an actual army to siege the city, whereas she just had a bunch of Sentinels and Vereesa bought a small battalion of Mages.

Tyrande brought a bunch of Ancients with her iirc. And to be fair, Tyrande has never been known for her diplomatic skills. And she was right as well, they are mana addicts.

[Tanaria]

Tyrande brought a bunch of Ancients with her iirc. And to be fair, Tyrande has never been known for her diplomatic skills. And she was right as well, they are mana addicts.

Well don't come at us with your shocked Pikachu faces, when the Nightborne and Blood Elves start getting friendly.

Night Elves only have themselves to blame. It's all their fault.