The Alliance SPOILERS!

[Soon-TM]

context on this one

Goblin levelling experience, near the end.

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That's not a declaration of war. And if it was, then why did no war follow? Why didn't the Alliance attack after that? We went on to go into Ulduar, Icecrown Citadel and then had to deal with Deathwing. At no point did the Alliance ever actually start a war. It was Garrosh that went into Alliance territory.

It very much IS a declaration of war, don't be biased. If you ever did the battle for the Undercity event, you will remember that Varian was going to attack on the spot, but Jaina teleported the entire Alliance army (Varian included) away.

And you also have the gunship battle in ICC, meaning that there were already armed clashes between Alliance and Horde by then. Wrathgate happens canonically after Ulduar but before ICC.

[Ardenaso]

Wrathgate happens canonically after Ulduar but before ICC.

but on Ulduar trailer Varian mentions the Wrathgate incident

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Source

didn't he mention the inhumane treatment of the captured prisoners

[WhiteWolf]

It very much IS a declaration of war, don't be biased.

You are biased. If it was a declaration of war, then it wasn't one that was followed up by an actual war. Garrosh started the war. Blaming it on Varian is a Horde apologist tactic.

[Koryn123]

Have Turalyon become king and welcome the Scarlet Crusade, direct the full might of the Alliance to reclaiming and restoring Lordaeron's cities and defenses, and have that success spur a huge influx of human support for the Scarlets, making them huge and strong again, and give us our Scarlet-ruled Lordaeron. Please. Please, for the love of all that is holy, enough with this stupid, cringy, sci-fi bs of light alien mega ultra light naaru spaceships. Give me back my swords and arrows.

But of course, this story direction would require Blizzard to re-use an old area of the world EVERYONE loves. Can't have that. Can't give people what they'd love. If it's not an entirely new area and group, they'll never do it. Gotta make every expansion "Seeds of Future Expansions: The Expansion," after they burned through WC3's lore and for some reason thought it'd be silly to keep building on the groups and areas people are nostalgic for from it.

[Stelio Kontos]

Horde apologists love to focus on Varian's words in Wrath, but every time fail to mention what the Horde did at Mord'rethar, the Death Gate.

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Mord%27rethar:_The_Death_Gate
https://wow.gamepedia.com/Broken_Front

In the assault on Icecrown, Horde forces dishonorably attacked Alliance forces who were busy fighting the Scourge at the Broken Front and trying to capture this gate.

Even Thrall and expedition commander Garrosh Hellscream doesn't bother to punish the commanding orc, Sky-Reaver Blackscar, just giving him a limp-wristed smack on the wrist.

But yes, Varian's big bad words...

[Verdugo]

Horde apologists love to focus on Varian's words in Wrath, but every time fail to mention what the Horde did at Mord'rethar, the Death Gate.

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Mord%27rethar:_The_Death_Gate
https://wow.gamepedia.com/Broken_Front

In the assault on Icecrown, Horde forces dishonorably attacked Alliance forces who were busy fighting the Scourge at the Broken Front and trying to capture this gate.

Even Thrall and expedition commander Garrosh Hellscream doesn't bother to punish the commanding orc, Sky-Reaver Blackscar, just giving him a limp-wristed smack on the wrist.

But yes, Varian's big bad words...

Wasnt that after the Wrathgate chronologicaly?

[Stelio Kontos]

Wasnt that after the Wrathgate chronologicaly?

I believe Wrathgate happened first, but I'm not sure. Does it really matter though? Folks were focusing on Varian's mean words and ignoring an event where Alliance forces, who were in no way engaging in attacking the Horde, were attempting to fight the Scourge, and the Horde stabbed them in the back. Which is worse, that or some mean words and hurt fee-fees?

This is the orc commander's response when you turn in the quest to investigate the broken Front, Hordeside:

"They saw the Alliance assaulting the gate and they attacked them from behind...

<After a brief pause, Korm bursts into laughter.>

THAT is what it means to be HORDE!"

And when you do question a dying Horde soldier at the gate, he gives you a quest to....murder the surviving Alliance troops!

https://www.wowhead.com/quest=13230/avenge-me

I hear them, <brother/sister>....

The moans of the wounded Alliance... they taunt me...

Finish what we have begun here, <class>. Show no mercy... let none of them survive.

For... the Horde...

And when completed:

The time of tolerance for the Alliance has passed, <name>.

They have earned our hatred! They shall live in fear of the Horde until they no longer pollute our world!

Ironic, that last part, to say the least. Looks like this orc is out to murder, rape, slaughter, and pillage another world and turn it into a barren hellscape.

[Mehrunes]

It's what has already happened every time that the Alliance did something funky: NEs/dwarves sabotaging Quel'thalas, Alliance fleet attacking the Forsaken in Howling Fjord well before the Wrathgate, Varian declaring war because he didn't like Orcs, SI7 killing unarmed civilians because they could be inconvenient witnesses, and so on.

Dwarves waltzing in to three different Horde zones because they felt entitled to digging there. Jaina's own forces attacking the Barrens before Garrosh invaded Ashenvale. Alliance forces attacking neutral Steamwheedle Goblins during Cata. Purge of Dalaran. Rogers shooting shipwrecks. Storhemim (oh, wait, Genn got a "stern talk" for that one ). Silithus. The list goes on.

Which makes me wonder. Why the fuck does Blizzard write those stories in the first place if they clash with their desired intent of pretending that Alliance is the most perfect apotheosis of purity, forcing them to then brush those stories - that, again, they themselves write - under the carpet?

The Forsaken in Howling Fjord were spreading the plague, and if you do the Horde side of the quests, you're also attacking Alliance.

Varian never declared war.

You're clearly biased.

It's almost as if the quests in Howling Fjord happened after the initial attack already happened or something. And as much as it offends some players, the Horde has the right to defend itself. As for the Blight, it's Forsaken business and Alliance had no right to butt into that. Finally, Chronicle v3 explicitly states Varian declared war on the Horde. So how about you actually inform yourself about a given topic first, before you start accusing others of being "clearly biased"?

Varian did declare war but it was because of what he saw in the sewers

That notion is, has always been and will forever be to be nothing more than baseless attempt at whitewashing Varian. It's neither expressed by Varian himself (who focused almost entirely on Orcs in his rant), nor in the description of the declaration of war in Chronicle.

That's not a declaration of war. And if it was, then why did no war follow? Why didn't the Alliance attack after that? We went on to go into Ulduar, Icecrown Citadel and then had to deal with Deathwing. At no point did the Alliance ever actually start a war. It was Garrosh that went into Alliance territory.

Not only does the Chronicle still prove you wrong, but Garrosh's invasion of the Barrens happened only after the Cataclysm hit. Northwatch forces attacked the Barrens a day before Deathwing shattered the world.

You are biased. If it was a declaration of war, then it wasn't one that was followed up by an actual war. Garrosh started the war. Blaming it on Varian is a Horde apologist tactic.

That's mighty weird, because there was fighting in Icecrown and some other places. Which was then followed by peace talks in The Shattering books. Have fun answering how and why the factions were talking about making peace after WotLK if they weren't at war before like you insist.

Also, I'd say there's a big difference between canon lore and "Horde apologist tactic", but then I have to remind myself it's not even remotely the first time an Alliance poster that's peddling fanfiction tried to portray canon lore as such.

Horde apologists love to focus on Varian's words in Wrath, but every time fail to mention what the Horde did at Mord'rethar, the Death Gate.

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Mord%27rethar:_The_Death_Gate
https://wow.gamepedia.com/Broken_Front

Could it be because the topic here is who started the war, to which Broken Front is not the answer, as it happened after Wrathgate? But hey, why bother following the context of a discussion when railing about "Horde apologist" is an option. The former requires having an actual argument in this discussion, after all. And since you don't, it's no wonder you resort to flinging meaningless ad hominem instead.

Even Thrall and expedition commander Garrosh Hellscream doesn't bother to punish the commanding orc, Sky-Reaver Blackscar, just giving him a limp-wristed smack on the wrist.

He got more of a punishment than Genn did for Stormheim, even though - as per Anduin himself - he flat out violated the orders from the High King of the Alliance to commit that attack.

But yes, Varian's big bad words...

Yes, Varian's big bad words. Of declaration of war. Mentioned in a topic of who started the war. Gee, whyever would people cling to that instead of mentioning the Broken Front. Or Temple of Attal'hakkar. About as relevant to the actual topic that you can't address head on.

Wasnt that after the Wrathgate chronologicaly?

Why on earth would an honest Alliance poster that would totally never engage in Alliance apologism (after all, it would make their remarks about Horde posters hypocritical in the process and that's simply a no-can-do type of a situation here) bother with the topic of chronology in a discussion of who started the war? Like, what is the logical link between chronology and that topic? Your question here simply perplexes me.

I believe Wrathgate happened first, but I'm not sure. Does it really matter though?

Indeed. Does it really matter whether the event you brought up to deflect from Varian declaring war happened before or after said declaration in a discussion about whether it was Varian who declared war or not? Such a complicated philosophical matter, this is. Will we ever get an answer to such a complex question, I wonder?

[WhiteWolf]

It's almost as if the quests in Howling Fjord happened after the initial attack already happened or something.

They didn't. Horde apologist.

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That's mighty weird, because there was fighting in Icecrown and some other places.

Irrelevant.

[TickTickTick]

Horde apologists love to focus on Varian's words in Wrath, but every time fail to mention what the Horde did at Mord'rethar, the Death Gate.

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Mord%27rethar:_The_Death_Gate
https://wow.gamepedia.com/Broken_Front

In the assault on Icecrown, Horde forces dishonorably attacked Alliance forces who were busy fighting the Scourge at the Broken Front and trying to capture this gate.

I fail to see what's dishonorable in attacking an enemy who declared a war against you? Blame it on Varian who decided to do it in the middle of ongoing war against the Lich King.

But yes, Varian's big bad words...

It wasn't just "big bad words". He commanded his soldiers to attack Thrall, the Horde's warchief. As far as I am aware, commanding a direct aggression upon a ruler of another country (in this case, faction) is a direct declaration of war. Or are you going to tell me "he wasn't serious" or "he didn't mean it"? Sounds familiar.

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Irrelevant.

You say there was no action between the Alliance and the Horde after the declaration of war, and when you're presented with an example of such actions, you call it irrelevant?

Half of Grizzly Hills is in constant AvH battles.
Skirmishes in Icecrown.
Varian vs Garrosh fight in Dalaran.
Battle of the champions in the Coliseum.
Gunship battle.

These all happened inbetween declaration of war and Cataclysm.

You may cover your ears and go la la la all you want. This won't wipe these events out of Warcraft lore.

[Stelio Kontos]

Friendly reminder: If you're ok with the Horde murdering Alliance troops trying to fight the Scourge, because it was "war", then you should never be seen bitching about "muh muh Taurajo" again.

[Mardux]

Horde apologists love to focus on Varian's words in Wrath, but every time fail to mention what the Horde did at Mord'rethar, the Death Gate.

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Mord%27rethar:_The_Death_Gate
https://wow.gamepedia.com/Broken_Front

In the assault on Icecrown, Horde forces dishonorably attacked Alliance forces who were busy fighting the Scourge at the Broken Front and trying to capture this gate.

Even Thrall and expedition commander Garrosh Hellscream doesn't bother to punish the commanding orc, Sky-Reaver Blackscar, just giving him a limp-wristed smack on the wrist.

But yes, Varian's big bad words...

Alliance make an active choice to undermine the horde they're supposed to be working with and it bites them in the ass. Who'd have guessed?

Are we talking about wrath or Before the Storm? Cuz the alliance is showing a pattern of stupid decisions having repercussions and alliance players blaming the horde for retaliating. (And yes, Im aware that describe something in nearly every expansion)

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Friendly reminder: If you're ok with the Horde murdering Alliance troops trying to fight the Scourge, because it was "war", then you should never be seen bitching about "muh muh Taurajo" again.

Friendly reminder: if you're ok with alliance funneling civilians from Taurajo to their death, then you should never be seen bitching about Theramore (which were it not for Anduin's butt buddy Baine, was a legitimate military target seeing as it was an actual military base and not a camp of hunter/gatherers like taurajo).

[Stelio Kontos]

What point is it trying to argue with folks who defend genocide? In the real world folks like that are relegated to their own extremist websites and forums. But here, killing a few Tauren or being mean to an orc is an unforgivable act, but the genocide of the night elves was a hilarious and well-deserved thing, those vermin just deserved to have their homes turned into an oven for their race.

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This meme never stops being relevant to this forum, even though it doesn't even include the Horde's most recent masterpieces in Teldrassil and Brennadam.

[Mardux]

They didn't. Horde apologist.

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Irrelevant.

Why do you bother to continually insert yourself into a discussion you clearly arent fit to have. If you cant actually add to it because you're unable to come up with anything but "horde apologist" while sticking your head up your ass to ignore context and facts as presented *by blizzard* because you dont like them, your just being a waste of time, both yours and everyone elses.

[Sharnie786]

My point is the light playing a long patience game not immediatly, specially now with the confirmation of time skip in Shadowlands expansion. Look at Yrel at the start of WoD she was awesome and nice but then look at her after what? 15+ years or so? and see how the light changed her? so we could see something similar to Turalyon.

There is no time skip confirmation, there never was.

[NED funded]

Have Turalyon become king and welcome the Scarlet Crusade, direct the full might of the Alliance to reclaiming and restoring Lordaeron's cities and defenses, and have that success spur a huge influx of human support for the Scarlets, making them huge and strong again, and give us our Scarlet-ruled Lordaeron. Please. Please, for the love of all that is holy, enough with this stupid, cringy, sci-fi bs of light alien mega ultra light naaru spaceships. Give me back my swords and arrows.

But of course, this story direction would require Blizzard to re-use an old area of the world EVERYONE loves. Can't have that. Can't give people what they'd love. If it's not an entirely new area and group, they'll never do it. Gotta make every expansion "Seeds of Future Expansions: The Expansion," after they burned through WC3's lore and for some reason thought it'd be silly to keep building on the groups and areas people are nostalgic for from it.

I so much want this. I could be wrong here but Turalyon wasn't present for the downfall of the Scarlet Crusade and it would be great if he just let them back into the alliance and into positions of power thinking they must be good bc they follow the light like he does. It wouldnt be bc he is a fanatic of the light or whatever and this is the reason divisions start growing.

[WhiteWolf]

Why do you bother to continually insert yourself into a discussion you clearly arent fit to have. If you cant actually add to it because you're unable to come up with anything but "horde apologist" while sticking your head up your ass to ignore context and facts as presented *by blizzard* because you dont like them, your just being a waste of time, both yours and everyone elses.

You're projecting.

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You say there was no action between the Alliance and the Horde after the declaration of war, and when you're presented with an example of such actions, you call it irrelevant?

I didn't say there was no action. I said that the Alliance did not bring war to the Horde. Which is correct. Horde slaughtered Alliance in Icecrown.

[Mehrunes]

They didn't. Horde apologist.

How about you get an actual clue about the topic you're trying to discuss, instead of just throwing "muh Horde apologist" around all the time? Because contrary to what you may think, it doesn't magically make you right. The very first quest involving the Alliance-Horde brawl near Vengeance landing is War is Hell. The objective of that quest? To burn the bodies from an earlier Alliance-Horde fight that happened prior to the arrival of the player. For god's sake, there are three destroyed Alliance ships at Alliance makeshift position at Derelict Strand. And speaking of Vengeance Landing, you should read up on its wowpedia page. Particularly the second paragraph that talks about how "The Alliance ambushed Vengeance Landing, having established a small camp outside its walls."

Though the funniest part here is that what you categorized as Horde apologism wasn't even how Alliance started it. Only a claim how the fighting predates the quest experience. Which wouldn't actually preclude the idea that Alliance started that fight (I mean, they did, but it wasn't conveyed in what you decided to call "Horde apologism").

Irrelevant.

Yes, yes. The fact that the factions came to blows in multiple zones of Northrend after Varian's declaration of war is totes legit "irrelevant" to your claim how Varian couldn't have declared war because it wasn't followed with factions waging war. Who are you trying to convince with this farcical retort, exactly? Not that your original argument was any better to begin with, because no matter how much you dislike it, a declaration of war is in and of itself enough for there to be a war.

What point is it trying to argue with folks who defend genocide? In the real world folks like that are relegated to their own extremist websites and forums. But here, killing a few Tauren or being mean to an orc is an unforgivable act, but the genocide of the night elves was a hilarious and well-deserved thing, those vermin just deserved to have their homes turned into an oven for their race.

Putting aside your usual inability to separate fiction and real life (which makes the gist of your brilliant projection wonderfully ironic), the only thing anyone defended in this thread in a discussion with you was @keymil defending the events at Broken Front. Making your already disgusting attempts at trying to paint the people who like a faction in a game that for some godforsaken reason makes you conjure pillars of salt as Nazis even more devoid of sense.

So the question you should be asking yourself shouldn't be "What point is it trying to argue with folks who defend genocide" but "What point is it trying to argue with my straw-induced fantasies". It was obvious from the get go you're either unwilling or unable to provide any actual arguments on the topic you butted into here, vide your willful ignorance of the context of the discussion about Varian's declaration of war, but your shit-flinging devolved from just a desperate attempt to discredit people's arguments in lieu of you developing your own to utterly tasteless.

Infracted.

[Tripzzz]

Goblin levelling experience, near the end.

[COLOR="#417394"][SIZE=1


It very much IS a declaration of war, don't be biased. If you ever did the battle for the Undercity event, you will remember that Varian was going to attack on the spot, but Jaina teleported the entire Alliance army (Varian included) away.

And you also have the gunship battle in ICC, meaning that there were already armed clashes between Alliance and Horde by then. Wrathgate happens canonically after Ulduar but before ICC.

Where the hell did you get that idea from? How can wrathgate happen AFTER Ulduar if Varian references the wrathgate before Ulduar is even raided?



Get your facts straight. LMAO.

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That notion is, has always been and will forever be to be nothing more than baseless attempt at whitewashing Varian. It's neither expressed by Varian himself (who focused almost entirely on Orcs in his rant), nor in the description of the declaration of war in Chronicle.

100% bullshit. Varian has a quote that talks about what they are witnessing inside Undercity.

"King Varian Wrynn says: Look around you, brothers and sisters. Open your eyes! Look at what they have done to our kingdom!"

https://wow.gamepedia.com/The_Battle_For_The_Undercity

No way you can argue he is talking about Orcs with that dialogue. He is talking about what they are seeing in the sewers.

[Nathasil]

The main difference between Alliance and Horde story content and in-game delivery is not the morality, imho, but he incredible difference of QUALITY.

Blizzard puts a LOT more hours into the Horde content - you can look back at every single Beta, Horde always gets done first, leaving only the crunch time shortly before release for the "Alliance content". In BFA, Boralus was not even fully textured when Dazar'alor had been completely finished and playable for WEEKS.
On the PTR, the developers only test the Horde content. This leads to "mirored" content where the devs simply swap some models out like in the Darkshore Warfront, being a buggy mess on the Alliance side while the Horde version generally works. I'm not talking about visual glitches here - of which the Alliance does still have a lot more - i am talking about gamebreaking bugs.

I simply cannot help but notice that there is so much more love and passion put into the Horde content, when Alliance side often feels like a chore that the unlucky Devs who drew the short sticks were forced to implement against their own will. In Nazjatar, for example, the two factions joining us are not even on the same scale. I personally know exactly nobody who liked the depressed fish-people all done by the same voice actor in exactly the same tone with as much personality as a wet garbage can - the Unshakled on the other hand were colorful, funny and enigmatic. This is an exact copy of Jinyu vs Hozen in MoP.

I will not get into Allied Races here.

As long as this bias continues to exist, it really does not matter at all what the story tells about the factions. And to the people who claim that Alliance players are too "privileged" to suffer not being the "pure good guys" - what do you think where the players joining the Horde over the last 6-8 years were coming from? Are you really so dellusional that you think those were "new" players? If so, words are wasted on you anyway.