An early look at them great vault, i.e. the new weekly chest.

[Delever]

No, I just pointed out the most obvious flaw in your argument. A literal 1% mythic raider currently spends probably less than 10 hours a week ingame as well. You are very much in the top 20% of raiding guilds with killing mythic nzoth, which is only a fraction of all guilds that raid mythic in the first place, that being only a fraction of the playerbase that raids to begin with. A fixed raid/m+ schedula alone puts you further away from the average most likely. At the end of the day it doubtful that you represent the average, even if you may think so yourself. People tend to underestimate how far down the average truly is, not just in WoW but in live as well.

Also you can question why people even need high ilvl gear, but then you can also question why they would need more choices of worse ilvl gear as well. Especially with iLvl still being a thing in the pug world.

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The problem with that is simply that m+ is easier. There is no way to surgar coat it. Since m+ was implemented in legion at every point in time you could easily outgear normal raiding items by running m+ keys which were easier and gave you better gear. The casual dropouts in my guild started to call our alt raids transmog runs, because that is pretty much all they boil down to, because even those that otherwise only log in once a week for 2h already outgeared it. Heck even LFR is outgeared by daily emissary chests. At that point, unless Blizzard changes either the difficulty of m+ or the rewards, you simply don't benefit from the raid rewards. The only chance I see here for this to be not the case is the nebulous currency reward we currently know nothing about.

That is another issue on its own. At this point blizzard should just outright remove one of the raiding difficulties in my opinion and bake the ilvl with another. Like remove normal and make the current normal ilvl into lfr or vice versa

[burek]

I just don't see how the average player would profit form such a system in any way. It won't be detrimental either (if the PvP vendor doesn't screw you over), but it also might just as well not exist for them. A certain degree of disapointment for this average player is thus understandble imho, as they were promised less RNG, but they won't be getting it unless they change the way they play the game.

Nicely said.

How is this system not beneficial to me as an incredibly average player?

You are a mythic raider. This system hugely benefits mythic raiders. With current playstyles, mythic raiders would be getting multiple high ilvl choices every week.

Most other people, with current playstyles, would be usually getting 0 or 1 high ilvl choices every week. No improvement unless you change your playstyle (aka start raiding mythic since M+ is gonna be a waste of time with all the nerfs).

[Delever]

Nicely said.



You are a mythic raider. This system hugely benefits mythic raiders. With current playstyles, mythic raiders would be getting multiple high ilvl choices every week.

Most other people, with current playstyles, would be usually getting 0 or 1 high ilvl choices every week. No improvement unless you change your playstyle (aka start raiding mythic since M+ is gonna be a waste of time with all the nerfs).

How so? You re not mythic raiding so you re probably spending more time doing M+. Are you telling me you cant muster fucking 5 dungeons a week to get 2 choices? Also on the server I m at, average af people are doing the first 3 nyalotha bosses on mythic in pugs. This has been very coomon in past raids as well. That should net you about another high ilvl choice.

[burek]

How so? You re not mythic raiding so you re probably spending more time doing M+. Are you telling me you cant muster fucking 5 dungeons a week to get 2 choices? Also on the server I m at, average af people are doing the first 3 nyalotha bosses on mythic in pugs. This has been very coomon in past raids as well. That should net you about another high ilvl choice.

You are basically repeating what I said. Change your playstyle and raid mythic or no improvement.

[Delever]

You are basically repeating what I said. Change your playstyle and raid mythic or no improvement.

What? Thats not at all what I m saying. You can keep doing M+ which is your current playstyle and also rewards the same ilvl as mythic raiding but now you re rewarded for doing more of it.

[Zephire]

I know this fact tends to go over alot of people's heads here, but if you think your average joe runs 5 +15 a week then you are mistaken.

Yeah, average joe does not do it like that, I agree. That's also not my point. My point is how you get gear, not what ilvl it is. If Joe does 1 m+ Joe get one item (or currency?). If Joe does 4 more runs, Joe can chose between 2 items and currency(?). It's obvious that Joe need to push some to get a higher ilvl but Joe still gets more choice than before and might just get that weapon Joe need so badly.

Because if you look at what most people do and how they play they will still only get one item from m+, as they probably average out at around 2-3 m+ a week. They also don't constantly spam +20 keys and never drop below +16 and they probably also don't have a pvp rating equal to the level where they would get elite gladiator gear.

For the sake of argument I'd even go as far and say that m+ is the easiest of the 3 to get high iLvl gear from. If you want an equivalent raiding piece you'd need to kill 3 bosses mythic, if you want one from PvP you need the respective raiting. So even if you get a piece out of every category, for many the first m+ will most likely be the one with the highest item level, invalidating the other choices on the spot 3-4 weeks into the season. On top of that your second pick choice from m+ requires you to actively farm high m+ keys instead of just playing one up and stopping once you are done. Let's leave the PvP case out for now and just look at a Pve scenario: Let's say you clear heroic (which afaik is already above the average) und you do your 1 or 2 max loot-level m+. The options from raiding will just be useless to you as well, because why bother with the stuff that is 15 iLvl below the one of the m+ loot? Even if you have 10 boss kills, that is still 3 pieces of loot that is lower than the m+ reward. While it's true that there will be supposedly a currency reward as well, we don't know what kind of reward this will be and how it's calculated.

I just don't see how the average player would profit form such a system in any way. It won't be detrimental either (if the PvP vendor doesn't screw you over), but it also might just as well not exist for them. A certain degree of disapointment for this average player is thus understandble imho, as they were promised less RNG, but they won't be getting it unless they change the way they play the game.

It feels like you're looking on this from the wrong angle. If you only did a lvl5 m+ and have some 2000+ rating then the m+ chest would be quite useless. If you do everything on an equal level you'll have a lot of choices. If you only do one activity, you'll have fewer items to pick from and if you're only able to do one single m+ the whole week you then have the same system as in BFA with an added currency (like titan residue etc I guess?).

If your point is that the ilvl difference rewards for raiding, m+ and pvp would be useless if you do one of them on a very high level and you see the low level items then yeah, I guess that is disappointing. It could also be encouraging to make progress in your own way or you focus some more on what you're good at, have time for or just want to do. It's a psychological thing how you want to deliver the items. Would you suggest that you would only see rewards that are within 10 ilvls from each other? I'd sure be somewhat irritated if something I want comes up with low ilvl but I know that it's my own fault and that I should've pushed a bit harder^^

You also talk a lot about +15 etc while also mention average Joe. Would you not think mr average Joe would be average at many things, doing m+5, lfr and some casual battlegrounds? Joe would have plenty equally high ilvl items to choose from.

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Most other people, with current playstyles, would be usually getting 0 or 1 high ilvl choices every week. No improvement unless you change your playstyle (aka start raiding mythic since M+ is gonna be a waste of time with all the nerfs).

What do you mean? What playstyle are you talking about that would not net you one or more choices in your chest? World PvP, normal and heroic dungeons, world quests or farming auction house? Why would you need to change playstyle?

[glowpipe]

Its safe to assume that its not 15. Otherwise the tooltip would be as simple as the one for Raids.

If I had to bet, I would say X is 5 on the 15Dungeon Tier.

Ofcourse it wont. Then you just have to do 5 max level dungeons and do the rest at lvl 1. And get max rewards. It is the lowest of the top 1, 5 and 15 dungeons you done.
It is 99.9% safe to assume that it is 15. If not you get max rewards for doing lesser content

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The people saying it is worse are lunatics.

As it currently stands, you have one chance at a random item which may or may not be complete trash. I've lost count of the number of weeks where the item is absolutely garbage and instantly vendored, it's called the chest of disappointment for a reason.

Having the option to 'unlock' an extra roll or two so that I am more likely to get an item that is usable might not be the absolute best way that they could have done it, but it's much better than the current system where that one shitty pair of gloves is all you are getting week in week out.

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If you don't do five +10 then you don't deserve the five x +10 reward- Because you didn't do five +10s.
If you do four +9 and one +10 or four +10 and one +9, you didnt do five +10s did you?

Its very very simple:

The tiers are 1 / 5 / 15

If you run a single +10, you will get a choice of +10 / none / none
If you run a single +10 and four +9, you will get a choice of +10 / +9 / none
If you run two +10s and four +9, you will get a choice of +10 / +9 / none
If you run five +10s and four +9, you will get a choice of +10 / +10 / none
If you run eleven +10 and six +9, you will get a choice of +10 / +10 / +9
If you run fifteen +10 and six +9, you will get a choice of +10 / +10 / +10

Doing +9s instead of +10s doesn't hurt your previous +10 work, just like running a +14 now does nothing to your +15. All it means is that you wasted some time.

There is a lot of people that doesn't understand this system at all. You litteraly can't downgrade your keys by doing lower keys. If you get a lower reward, thats only because that is the highest you did. You didn't have a higher item to start with. This system in its current state (barr the 15 required dungeons perhaps) sounds perfect to me, im afraid that enough people whine on it to get it changed to something worse, because they don't understand it. Its perfect as it is

[burek]

What? Thats not at all what I m saying. You can keep doing M+ which is your current playstyle and also rewards the same ilvl as mythic raiding but now you re rewarded for doing more of it.

My current playstyle is to a play a lot at the start of a patch, then just a little to finish all I wanted, and then stop playing until the next one. This is a playstyle shared by many, as every patch has the same fluctuation of population and in-game activity with a spike and a decline towards the end. And until 8.3, BfA did a good job of supporting it.

Now with the recent changes, playing a lot at the start will be pointless without tf since you can only get one item per week no matter how much you play. Playing a little after a few months is also not going to work, because your gear after receiving only one item per week is not going to be good. And at that point you will actually have to play more (aka 15 dungeons) in order to have a chance at that weekly upgrade (while being very behind mythic raiders in gear so pugging is no longer going to be a good option).

The supported playstyle of Shadowlands is going to be to play equally every week, preferably on a set schedule with a set group, for as long as possible. But if you are willing to do that, why not just fucking raid mythic? Everything else is going to be a waste of time.

And that's all without factoring in alts. Good luck rolling one mid-patch after missing months of weekly chests with no way to catch-up.

[Delever]

My current playstyle is to a play a lot at the start of a patch, then just a little to finish all I wanted, and then stop playing until the next one. This is a playstyle shared by many, as every patch has the same fluctuation of population and in-game activity with a spike and a decline towards the end. And until 8.3, BfA did a good job of supporting it.

Now with the recent changes, playing a lot at the start will be pointless without tf since you can only get one item per week no matter how much you play. Playing a little after a few months is also not going to work, because your gear after receiving only one item per week is not going to be good. And at that point you will actually have to play more (aka 15 dungeons) in order to have a chance at that weekly upgrade (while being very behind mythic raiders in gear so pugging is no longer going to be a good option).

The supported playstyle of Shadowlands is going to be to play equally every week, preferably on a set schedule with a set group, for as long as possible. But if you are willing to do that, why not just fucking raid mythic? Everything else is going to be a waste of time.

And that's all without factoring in alts. Good luck rolling one mid-patch after missing months of weekly chests with no way to catch-up.

How is that any different than now? Now if you miss weeks of chests theres nothing to increase your chances. And all the catch up stuff for bfa came in patches just like every expansion. Do you really believe they wont have catch up shit in 9.x patches?

[burek]

How is that any different than now? Now if you miss weeks of chests theres nothing to increase your chances. And all the catch up stuff for bfa came in patches just like every expansion. Do you really believe they wont have catch up shit in 9.x patches?

Titanforging was the catch-up in most of BfA, if that's all you have to say. 8.3 systems are shit, and were all about corruptions not gear level. All that mattered at the start was if you have EV/TD or not. Without corruption, if gear only had stats and ilvl, 8.3 wouldn't work.

I'd rather concentrate on the rest of BfA than just on a shitty experimental last patch. How the game works 'now' is people one-shotting bosses, soloing high M+, tank raids clearing mythic etc. It's not worth discussing.

[klogaroth]

Choice of items, and if you don't like the items, the option to take currency.

Even if you only run a single M+ in a week and do no other content that gives you an option at all you are still better off, because you have that currency option if you don't want the item you could get.

It slows down chest gains for those who did M+ and PvP, but there's also a PvP vendor now, so that's an option.

The emphasis in Shadowlands seems to be on slowing down loot gains, but ensuring that what you do get will be useful. Getting showered with items that all get vendored does not improve your character.

[Gorsameth]

My current playstyle is to a play a lot at the start of a patch, then just a little to finish all I wanted, and then stop playing until the next one. This is a playstyle shared by many, as every patch has the same fluctuation of population and in-game activity with a spike and a decline towards the end. And until 8.3, BfA did a good job of supporting it.

Agree with this sofar.

Now with the recent changes, playing a lot at the start will be pointless without tf since you can only get one item per week no matter how much you play.

You only get 1 'free' item from the chest per week. The exact same as it is now. You still get items from doing dungeons and raids, and because there is no TF those items will be more valuable. Outside of Mythic raiders who dive strait in everyone is only going to get 1 piece a week. Timmy isn't going to get lucky and get a massive TF proc item.

Playing a little after a few months is also not going to work, because your gear after receiving only one item per week is not going to be good. And at that point you will actually have to play more (aka 15 dungeons) in order to have a chance at that weekly upgrade (while being very behind mythic raiders in gear so pugging is no longer going to be a good option).

Except your gear is going to be about as good as everyone else because everyone gets 1 item. Without titanforge boosting ilvl up everyone is going to be a lot slower in getting a full equipment set of whatever ilvl is the cap that patch.

The supported playstyle of Shadowlands is going to be to play equally every week, preferably on a set schedule with a set group, for as long as possible. But if you are willing to do that, why not just fucking raid mythic? Everything else is going to be a waste of time.

Between Weekly Mythic dungeon, daily WQ's, Emissaries, ect how is that different now? Do X activities every day/week and come back to do it again has been how WoW has worked for practically its entire existence.

And that's all without factoring in alts. Good luck rolling one mid-patch after missing months of weekly chests with no way to catch-up.

There is no reason to believe catch-up gear will somehow vanish in SL. Catching up will be the same it has always been, if anything it will be easier because your not trying to catch up to people who have had thousands of extra chances at insane TF procs.

[Delever]

Titanforging was the catch-up in most of BfA, if that's all you have to say. 8.3 systems are shit, and were all about corruptions not gear level. All that mattered at the start was if you have EV/TD or not. Without corruption, if gear only had stats and ilvl, 8.3 wouldn't work.

I'd rather concentrate on the rest of BfA than just on a shitty experimental last patch. How the game works 'now' is people one-shotting bosses, soloing high M+, tank raids clearing mythic etc. It's not worth discussing.

Titanforging..... a catch up mechanic.... ok man I m done discussing. Live in whatever delusional bubble you re living.

[kamuimac]

all im gonna say is this.

another idioticly overcomplicated system instead just bringing back VP gear and VP gear uppgrades like in MoP.

[Delever]

all im gonna say is this.

another idioticly overcomplicated system instead just bringing back VP gear and VP gear uppgrades like in MoP.

Nothing complicated about it. I ll criticize any other SL feature thats up for debated but this is simply just straight up better than what we have.
Sorry your brain fails to process 3 lines of text per cell choice.

[Gorsameth]

all im gonna say is this.

another idioticly overcomplicated system instead just bringing back VP gear and VP gear uppgrades like in MoP.

The advantage of this system is that playing more gives you more options but not more items so the 'need' to grind is much less compared to the old VP systems which was another "fill this bar every week or else you will fall behind".

[kaminaris]

Haha, no. Having 3 choices is not the equivalent to having 3 weekly chests.

Plus, the point of contention seems to be the 15 mythic dungeons as an additional choice. Not doing that reduces your choices from 9 to 8. Not from 9 to 1. You are being dishonest right now.

Yes it is equivalent. In terms of probability it is even stronger than a single weekly chest. Especially in the long run.
Having ~18-24% chance to get something useful each week vs
Having a ~6% chance each week to get something useful

is really a big difference. In timespan of month it will yield a 2 more items on average, in 2 months that may be even 4-5 more items.

People at top 100 will do it, alongside with pvp. Of course this segment can be disregarded. But people 100-2000 will do at least 5 each week because that one additional chance is just that strong.

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I just don't see how the average player would profit form such a system in any way. It won't be detrimental either (if the PvP vendor doesn't screw you over), but it also might just as well not exist for them. A certain degree of disapointment for this average player is thus understandble imho, as they were promised less RNG, but they won't be getting it unless they change the way they play the game.

And this is 100% true. Average players dont do even 5 M+ a week. This system is disconnected from reality.

[goldlock]

Yes it is equivalent. In terms of probability it is even stronger than a single weekly chest. Especially in the long run.
Having ~18-24% chance to get something useful each week vs
Having a ~6% chance each week to get something useful

is really a big difference. In timespan of month it will yield a 2 more items on average, in 2 months that may be even 4-5 more items.

People at top 100 will do it, alongside with pvp. Of course this segment can be disregarded. But people 100-2000 will do at least 5 each week because that one additional chance is just that strong.

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And this is 100% true. Average players dont do even 5 M+ a week. This system is disconnected from reality.

What I am curious about is how it calculates the options...

For example lets say you clear all of mythic raiding. Do the mythic+ and pvp rewards reflect that ilv or do they each draw from their own source?

If that is the case most players likely won't bother with things like pvp as getting gladiator isn't harder then clearing mythic it does require a completely different skill set (possibly soul binds and covenant as well).

I really want to see how the ilv for the choice is calculated and if its accumulated or if each row has its own source to draw from.

[Cazze]

23 pages because of datamined strings lmaoo

[Cosmic Janitor]

What I am curious about is how it calculates the options...

For example lets say you clear all of mythic raiding. Do the mythic+ and pvp rewards reflect that ilv or do they each draw from their own source?

If that is the case most players likely won't bother with things like pvp as getting gladiator isn't harder then clearing mythic it does require a completely different skill set (possibly soul binds and covenant as well).

I really want to see how the ilv for the choice is calculated and if its accumulated or if each row has its own source to draw from.

From the strings we know that at least the mythic+ version is supposed to be based on the item level of the lowest dungeon in your last y (most like 1/5/15) runs. I think it is fairly reasonable to assume that each line has it's own calculation. Now, if it would take your highest ilvl from any one line and somehow applies it to the others, then the system starts to get interesting for everyone. But I doubt they'd hand out mythic iLvl gear by just cleaning up a few m+.