LFR and whether it still has a place in WoW

[Fayenoor]

When LFR was created, it was a good way for more laid back players to get a taste of raiding without the hassle of organized raiding. It was also a very nice way of getting some gear on alts (specially during end of expac downtime).

However, with the advent of M+ and the relative ease with which chaining keys can quickly gear a new alt up, the need to run LFR for alt gearing seems to have depreciated.

I understand that due to real life commitments and other issues, some people may not necessarily have time for regular organized raid but still want to experience some form of raiding. Do people still run LFR exclusively to get a taste of raiding? If so, does running LFR leave you a real bad experience of the raiding scene as a whole?

My personal experience of LFR on alts throughout BFA has been very poor. From AFK DPS, to people busy constantly crap-talking each other, the whole thing is a mess to the point of me avoiding it completely. Rather run M+ on alts.

In that note, if LFR was removed from the game, would people (who only raid casually) feel motivated to join guilds that run Normal mode raids. There are plenty of such guilds who are willing to try out casual normal raiding. At least you can get a personality match with organized team and raid with a group of similar minded people with similar wow raiding goals.

[Zenfoldor]

I don't think they should remove it. That said, they should and seem to have been making it unnecessary to use if you do actual raiding.

edit: I'm actually gonna remove my Destiny 2 example, since maybe they have added LFR since I played or made it easier.

[Teroch]

Even people that run LFR don't want to run LFR. Ironically, most normal pugs are faster and smoother than LFR. Would people migrate to normal if LFR was removed? I'm not sure, but my gut says most would not. LFR does not have a set schedule, and does not require anyone else to accept you, that has a draw even if the environment is awful.

[deenman]

Even people that run LFR don't want to run LFR. Ironically, most normal pugs are faster and smoother than LFR. Would people migrate to normal if LFR was removed? I'm not sure, but my gut says most would not. LFR does not have a set schedule, and does not require anyone else to accept you, that has a draw even if the environment is awful.

with normal and hc being flex...and not having an instance id like in the past,the point of lfr has rly become less and less

[LordVargK]

Does not really annoy me. It was an okay tool to get your tier sets in 4.3 and I've ignored it since your loot became entirely random and you could queue in with guildmates to increase your chances anymore.

I have no problem with it, but I don't have a reason to use it either. And I stay away from it, because honestly a (manually created) PuG is more enjoyable than LfR, at least from what I remember.

[Twdft]

if LFR was removed from the game, would people (who only raid casually) feel motivated to join guilds that run Normal mode raids

No they will not. Organized raiding is and always was a niche activity for about 10% of us. If you remove LfR these players will never set foot into a raid again, and Blizzard will stop developing raids because they can't justify developing costs only 10% use to the beancounters.

LfR is here to stay and I really don't get why every month or so someone else comes around advocating its removal. Just ignore it and let people who like it have fun.

[Seranthor]

When LFR was created, it was a good way for more laid back players to get a taste of raiding without the hassle of organized raiding. It was also a very nice way of getting some gear on alts (specially during end of expac downtime).

However, with the advent of M+ and the relative ease with which chaining keys can quickly gear a new alt up, the need to run LFR for alt gearing seems to have depreciated.

I understand that due to real life commitments and other issues, some people may not necessarily have time for regular organized raid but still want to experience some form of raiding. Do people still run LFR exclusively to get a taste of raiding? If so, does running LFR leave you a real bad experience of the raiding scene as a whole?

My personal experience of LFR on alts throughout BFA has been very poor. From AFK DPS, to people busy constantly crap-talking each other, the whole thing is a mess to the point of me avoiding it completely. Rather run M+ on alts.

In that note, if LFR was removed from the game, would people (who only raid casually) feel motivated to join guilds that run Normal mode raids. There are plenty of such guilds who are willing to try out casual normal raiding. At least you can get a personality match with organized team and raid with a group of similar minded people with similar wow raiding goals.

What benefit is there to removing LFR?

[Hellobolis]

doesn't really matter if it has a place or not, removing major game features will cause a massive shitstorm that is unlikely to be worth it.

that's ofc aside the financial side of things: too many casual players will quit over it.

[Fayenoor]

What benefit is there to removing LFR?

- Freeing up dev time to be used elsewhere.
- Forcing people to make friends to join organized team. Will be a significant boost to casual Normal Raiding with an increased recruitment pool from people migrating from LFR.

[Relapses]

Is it time for the next 90+ page thread about the LFR already?

Dang, guess so.

Opinions:

• The LFR is one of the biggest sources for engagement of players in the game so it's unlikely to go away any time soon
• Because of the low skill ceiling of the average WoW player, making the LFR unnecessarily punitive has the side effect of causing disengagement
• The argument that the LFR "facilitates" or "promotes" bad habits in gamers hold some merit but blaming all of the problems with the game squarely on its existence is pretty fucking stupid and anybody who thinks like this should be summarily ignored
• Best solution: Bring back Cata/MoP difficulty for the LFR. If Tier does come back, don't let it drop in the LFR but still provide set bonuses. (The WoD approach.)

[Hellobolis]

with normal and hc being flex...and not having an instance id like in the past,the point of lfr has rly become less and less

LFR is a place where you don't have to link your raider.io, ahead of curve and whatever else to the raidleader who might kick you or disband the raid whenever he feels like it.

that alone makes it attractive to a probably much larger than well ever realize subset of players.

[Fayenoor]

and Blizzard will stop developing raids because they can't justify developing costs only 10% use to the beancounters.

And yet they just released AQ40 in WoW classic - a 40-man raid which doesnt have multiple difficulty level to pick from (LFR, normal, heroic, Mythic). So they are clearly investing in organized raiding.

Your claim that organized raiding is for top 10% has no data to support it. Acc to wowprogress around 78% of people who have entered any kind of raid have killed atleast heroic Wrathion with 6% of total raiders having killed Mythic Nzoth. That's a wide spread. I can understand that Mythic being a niche, but Heroic and Normal raiding is not.

[arkanon]

And yet they just released AQ40 in WoW classic - a 40-man raid which doesnt have multiple difficulty level to pick from (LFR, normal, heroic, Mythic). So they are clearly investing in organized raiding.

Your claim that organized raiding is for top 10% has no data to support it. Acc to wowprogress around 78% of people who have entered any kind of raid have killed atleast heroic Wrathion with 6% of total raiders having killed Mythic Nzoth. That's a wide spread. I can understand that Mythic being a niche, but Heroic and Normal raiding is not.

But your data is not accurate, as it only includes raiders. It does not take into account how many people do NOT enter any raid at all. 78% of the player base has not killed heroic Wrathion.

[whywhatwhowhenhow]

I think normal mode doesn't have a place anymore. Remove it and tune LFR to normal difficulty. Then just have heroic and mythic.

No need for 4 difficulties. If shadowlands is anything like the last 2 expansions then you get better loot from world quests anyway.

[Hellobolis]

But your data is not accurate, as it only includes raiders. It does not take into account how many people do NOT enter any raid at all. 78% of the player base has not killed heroic Wrathion.

good ballpark number is 20% of players raids heroic and 5% mythic.

you can find some site that crawls the armory for active characters/achievements/etc to do some ballpark calculations.

[arkanon]

I think normal mode doesn't have a place anymore. Remove it and tune LFR to normal difficulty. Then just have heroic and mythic.

No need for 4 difficulties. If shadowlands is anything like the last 2 expansions then you get better loot from world quests anyway.

I agree 4 difficulties are not needed, but LFR will never again be increased at all in difficulty. As it is many groups struggle for hours on a single wing.

- - - Updated - - -

good ballpark number is 20% of players raids heroic and 5% mythic.

you can find some site that crawls the armory for active characters/achievements/etc to do some ballpark calculations.

The issue comes with mythic raiders who also complete heroic and normal. The data can be quite messy, and the only really accurate one is the number of players who have completed mythic.

Even then, with the prevalence of sells and carries, it is still quite screwed.

[Biomega]

There's a small but not insignificant part of the playerbase that relies on LFR to see the raid.

Everyone else can just ignore it and their game will stay exactly the same.

There's no reason to remove it.

[Kanegasi]

When LFR was created, it was a good way for more laid back players to get a taste of raiding without the hassle of organized raiding.

Correct.

In that note, if LFR was removed from the game, would people (who only raid casually) feel motivated to join guilds that run Normal mode raids. There are plenty of such guilds who are willing to try out casual normal raiding.

No, they won't. The desire for people to not participate in organized raiding has not changed. LFR will not go away because you don't like it.

[deenman]

LFR is a place where you don't have to link your raider.io, ahead of curve and whatever else to the raidleader who might kick you or disband the raid whenever he feels like it.

that alone makes it attractive to a probably much larger than well ever realize subset of players.

but you dont have to link those for normal raiding or mythic 0 and the gear there is better...and amusingly easier than lfr,also you can make your own grp and invite how many people you want for a normal raid and not worry about kicking or anything

idk,i think tourist mode is the only reason left for lfr,but then they go ahead and make bosses far harder than they should for a random que system...its literaly easier to pug hc than do many lfr bosses

[MrLachyG]

- Freeing up dev time to be used elsewhere.
- Forcing people to make friends to join organized team. Will be a significant boost to casual Normal Raiding with an increased recruitment pool from people migrating from LFR.

1. that's false. it takes very little dev time to make lfr.
2. forcing people to do anything NEVER ends well

why are we having this discussion AGAIN? if you don't like LFR; don't fucking do it! why are people so fucking obsessed with removing things that they don't even use??? let people play how they want to play; if that includes LFR then so be it. jesus fucking christ