LFR and whether it still has a place in WoW

[KOUNTERPARTS]

So who does LFR benefit really? Maybe some people farming xmog pieces?

Those who claim to be "casual" and don't want to devote more time and effort to doing Normal, Heroic, or Mythic. It's not that hard to imagine.


I suppose the argument could be made of "it doesn't take that much more time and effort to do Normal, Heroic, or Mythic" than it does to queue up and wait for LFR. However, that extra amount of time and effort is experienced differently by different people, and the path of least resistance towards being able to experience raid content in most cases is LFR.


It's not going anywhere.

[oldgeezer]

Usually I run LFR once per wing to see the raid at my convenience.

Otherwise, I gear up through world quests, unless there's a particular LFR transmog I want. I don't do any form of mythic content, or any other form of raiding. So, personally, I wouldn't particularly care if LFR was removed, but I wouldn't 'step up' to any other content, either. I see no reason to remove it, though.

[rrayy]

- Freeing up dev time to be used elsewhere.
- Forcing people to make friends to join organized team. Will be a significant boost to casual Normal Raiding with an increased recruitment pool from people migrating from LFR.

You are not going to force anyone to do anything. If you remove LFR, those people simply will not raid at all. It just amazes me that people continue to believe in this fantasy world where people will jump to normals just by removing LFR. I have a better idea. How about you just ignore LFR and let those who run it run it?

[Mirishka]

When LFR was created, it was a good way for more laid back players to get a taste of raiding without the hassle of organized raiding. It was also a very nice way of getting some gear on alts (specially during end of expac downtime).

However, with the advent of M+ and the relative ease with which chaining keys can quickly gear a new alt up, the need to run LFR for alt gearing seems to have depreciated.

I understand that due to real life commitments and other issues, some people may not necessarily have time for regular organized raid but still want to experience some form of raiding. Do people still run LFR exclusively to get a taste of raiding? If so, does running LFR leave you a real bad experience of the raiding scene as a whole?

My personal experience of LFR on alts throughout BFA has been very poor. From AFK DPS, to people busy constantly crap-talking each other, the whole thing is a mess to the point of me avoiding it completely. Rather run M+ on alts.

In that note, if LFR was removed from the game, would people (who only raid casually) feel motivated to join guilds that run Normal mode raids. There are plenty of such guilds who are willing to try out casual normal raiding. At least you can get a personality match with organized team and raid with a group of similar minded people with similar wow raiding goals.

LFR does exactly what it needs to do. It should not be removed and it is not being removed.

[Kyriani]

Where is this quote from? is there a youtube video where he says this specifically? Some interview?

You are saying LFR is the driving force behind raid - because a very high number of people run LFR. Where is the data point to support that?
I would argue that there are way more people doing M+ than LFR and people enjoy M+ grinding more than LFR.
So if Blizzard invested the LFR money into releasing some more 5 man content mid expac - wouldn't that help player participation more?

Besides Mechagon, BFA hasnt had any new 5 man content after release. Wouldnt it be better to add more 5 man content out of cadence with raid tiers?

It was from an interview back in MoP, here's the full quote:

LFR justifies the creation of more raid content when millions of players are able to see content. Only a few thousand people actually saw Kel’thuzad, but millions saw Deathwing. The reason Mists of Pandaria is starting with 18 bosses and adding larger raid tiers than we have had previously is because many players are going to see the raids through LFR.

https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...he-Daily-Blink

I did not say that that LFR is the "driving force" behind raids. I am saying that Ion Hazzikostas has outright said that "LFR justifies the creation of more raid content when millions of players are able to see content." and "The reason Mists of Pandaria is starting with 18 bosses and adding larger raid tiers than we have had previously is because many players are going to see the raids through LFR."

If enough of the player base is not engaging in raid content, then the time and resources devoted to making raid content will be redistributed to content that more people engage in. "LFR justifies the creation of more raid content when millions of players are able to see content." That's why raids are as big as they are as Ion said of MoP and why LFR continues to exist.

[xenogear3]

The original design is that LFR is a gearing path.
Just like normal raid, LFR players would play every week for a few months.

Instead, LFR sees the content, then unsub.
Blizzard is unhappy about it.

I agree that it should have a group finder for normal raid.
If they fail, they fail. No reason to not have one.
Yet, nearly all MMORPG do not like that idea.

[rrayy]

The original design is that LFR is a gearing path.
Just like normal raid, LFR players would play every week for a few months.

Instead, LFR sees the content, then unsub.
Blizzard is unhappy about it.

Link proving Blizzard is unhappy about LFR.

[Adamas102]

Agreed. There really is no reason for LFR to still exist at this point.

Normal raiding is frankly easier and faster.

That's irrelevant. The main difference is the ability to queue for LFR. It has it's place, and according to the devs is one of the reasons why more resources are allocated to developing raids for EVERYONE. People who don't use LFR just need to shut up about it and move on. There really are no good arguments for removing it that outweigh the benefits at this point.

[Firebert]

In that note, if LFR was removed from the game, would people (who only raid casually) feel motivated to join guilds that run Normal mode raids.

Well, if LFR was removed from the game, the quality and quantity of raids would plummet, further dis-incentivising players to raid. This, paired with what seems to be the company-enforced e-sports-ification of Mythic plus, would probably spell the end of raids as we know them.

I suppose it's not the ugliest way to kill the game, but it's up there.

[Seranthor]

- Freeing up dev time to be used elsewhere.
- Forcing people to make friends to join organized team. Will be a significant boost to casual Normal Raiding with an increased recruitment pool from people migrating from LFR.

You know that dev time that is being used is for raid development... are you really sure you want to redirect those resources elsewhere? if so, where? and why?
Forcing people you say, you probably want to invest some time in finding what Ghostcrawler learned about forcing people....

- - - Updated - - -

Never said 78% of total players. I mentioned 78% of players who has entered a raid.

People who do NOT enter a raid do so by choice - they dont like raiding and dont want to participate. E.g. PvP-ers. It is their choice. I am fairly certain they dont run LFR either.

So, the segment here is people who actually want to raid--
1. how many only raid LFR?
2. how many of them do normal mode at least?
3. How many of them does heroic?
4. How many of them does Mythic?

I have seen people with 3k+ RIO who are like only 12/12N. Clearly they prefer the M+ scene over raiding. So that's their choice and they dont do LFR either.

So who does LFR benefit really? Maybe some people farming xmog pieces?

Maybe you should research the answers to these questions. because the answers exist and have been posted right here on this very website.

[CalamityHeart]

This idea that getting rid of LFR and "forcing players to get better if they want to raid for real" will somehow work out favorably is stupid and needs to die. You don't force your players to do something by destroying their alternatives. The only thing you will guarantee is that your "target audience" will be insatiably angry. It does not guarantee that they'll actually "move up". The amount of people that would be successfully bullied into doing Normal raids or higher by getting rid of LFR will simply not outweigh the amount of people that would just stop participating in raid content entirely.

Just leave LFR alone. Regardless of what you think of the part of the community that uses LFR, at this point, its existence is a key part of the endgame experience for a lot of people. If you don't like it, then you move up and start doing some real raiding. Then you'll never have to worry about it again. But getting rid of LFR would just cause more harm than good, both to Blizzard and to the community.

[callipygoustp]

Where is this quote from? is there a youtube video where he says this specifically? Some interview?

You are saying LFR is the driving force behind raid - because a very high number of people run LFR. Where is the data point to support that?
I would argue that there are way more people doing M+ than LFR and people enjoy M+ grinding more than LFR.
So if Blizzard invested the LFR money into releasing some more 5 man content mid expac - wouldn't that help player participation more?

Besides Mechagon, BFA hasnt had any new 5 man content after release. Wouldnt it be better to add more 5 man content out of cadence with raid tiers?

Blizzard clarifies the raid finder's role in gearing progression
Random users on a non-official website aren't saying it, Blizzard is. If you want to question their data you should take it to their twitter or official forums.

[Seranthor]

Where is this quote from? is there a youtube video where he says this specifically? Some interview?

You are saying LFR is the driving force behind raid - because a very high number of people run LFR. Where is the data point to support that?
I would argue that there are way more people doing M+ than LFR and people enjoy M+ grinding more than LFR.
So if Blizzard invested the LFR money into releasing some more 5 man content mid expac - wouldn't that help player participation more?

Besides Mechagon, BFA hasnt had any new 5 man content after release. Wouldnt it be better to add more 5 man content out of cadence with raid tiers?

https://www.engadget.com/2012-08-23-...ogression.html

[Boricha]

I think LFR is fine in its current state. It's made for people who have no desire to raid, want tmog, and/or just want the kill quests out of their log. I see no problem with that. There's no power gain that forces raiders to do LFR, and those interested in raiding will rise above the need to do LFR within a week of playing.

[taishar68]

When LFR was created, it was a good way for more laid back players to get a taste of raiding without the hassle of organized raiding. It was also a very nice way of getting some gear on alts (specially during end of expac downtime).

However, with the advent of M+ and the relative ease with which chaining keys can quickly gear a new alt up, the need to run LFR for alt gearing seems to have depreciated.

I understand that due to real life commitments and other issues, some people may not necessarily have time for regular organized raid but still want to experience some form of raiding. Do people still run LFR exclusively to get a taste of raiding? If so, does running LFR leave you a real bad experience of the raiding scene as a whole?

My personal experience of LFR on alts throughout BFA has been very poor. From AFK DPS, to people busy constantly crap-talking each other, the whole thing is a mess to the point of me avoiding it completely. Rather run M+ on alts.

In that note, if LFR was removed from the game, would people (who only raid casually) feel motivated to join guilds that run Normal mode raids. There are plenty of such guilds who are willing to try out casual normal raiding. At least you can get a personality match with organized team and raid with a group of similar minded people with similar wow raiding goals.

if there are people who only run lfr now, removing it is unlikely, in my opinion, to make them switch to a raiding guild type scenario. There are positives to LFR that most posters here would sneer at:

You can do it at any time, arguably the single best thing about LFR, flexibility.

You get to see the complete content of the game without being bound to a schedule.

You can work on rotations and gear in a raid setting without screwing up more difficult progression. (That one is a reach. I admit)

I was grateful for LFR in BfA: my wife and I had a baby a week into the expansion and there was no way for me to stick to a raiding schedule. But I got to see all the raids and complete them, forgettable as the experience was.

LFR has no real negative effect in the game, except for perhaps extreme min-maxers hoping to get better gear, and burning out in the process, but I don’t think it is a widespread concern.

[enigma77]

That's irrelevant. The main difference is the ability to queue for LFR. It has it's place, and according to the devs is one of the reasons why more resources are allocated to developing raids for EVERYONE. People who don't use LFR just need to shut up about it and move on. There really are no good arguments for removing it that outweigh the benefits at this point.

I don't understand that argument. Please elaborate. Is the problem talking to other people? Requirements for normal raids are super low, gear wise.

[taishar68]

I don't understand that argument. Please elaborate. Is the problem talking to other people? Requirements for normal raids are super low, gear wise.

Say it was talking to other people, should we exclude them from content? But as I mentioned above, time plays a key role. An LFR wing takes maybe an hour. Joining a coordinated group is a bigger time investment.

and the gear requirements vary greatly depending on who is running the show.

[enigma77]

Say it was talking to other people, should we exclude them from content? But as I mentioned above, time plays a key role. An LFR wing takes maybe an hour. Joining a coordinated group is a bigger time investment.

and the gear requirements vary greatly depending on who is running the show.

Honestly? Hell no, this is absolutely not true. It takes more time to even get the queue to pop than to join a group on the groupfinder and kill several bosses on Normal.

I feel like LFR not only is a bad experience for the people who are supposed to enjoy it, but it's also a huge waste of time.

[taishar68]

Honestly? Hell no, this is absolutely not true. It takes more time to even get the queue to pop than to join a group on the groupfinder and kill several bosses on Normal.

I feel like LFR not only is a bad experience for the people who are supposed to enjoy it, but it's also a huge waste of time.

i guess it depends on the individual. LFR Also removes one bar that keeps a lot of people out; performance anxiety. I mean, you have to be exceptionally bad, and an asshole, to get kicked from LFR. Normal raids, depending on the host, have standards that some players don’t want to be held to. I know this sounds like a negative thing, but jumping into organized raiding alone can be intimidating for some people.

[enigma77]

i guess it depends on the individual. LFR Also removes one bar that keeps a lot of people out; performance anxiety. I mean, you have to be exceptionally bad, and an asshole, to get kicked from LFR. Normal raids, depending on the host, have standards that some players don’t want to be held to. I know this sounds like a negative thing, but jumping into organized raiding alone can be intimidating for some people.

I guess that makes sense