LFR and whether it still has a place in WoW

[PenguinChan]

LFR is fine. I don't like it because it's too easy, and I dislike Normal raiding because having to go through the hassle of manual PUG interfaces (Just like M+) is annoying - and joining a raid guild and adhering to a schedule for a decent challenge is also a lot to ask. I think a better question is why we don't have some system in place to allow Normal / Lower M+ automation like we do with RDF and LFR. Normal and lower M+ levels aren't exactly mentally challenging - and FF14 has shown that it works (At least on the raid-equivalent queues).

At the same time, i wonder if dividing the normal raid in clearly defined wings like LFR has could be helpful. Instead of a full 10 boss raid, you'll get 3-4 smaller raids.

The issue isn't the length of a raid, it's the commitment and schedules you need to put aside. Not everyone has the drive to play regularly enough to adhere to one, while others have sporadic schedules which demolish any ability to consistently raid. I'd play a shit ton of Normal raids, M+s and really long dungeons (Like BRD) / raids if it was convenient to just match up and do it.

[Gaidax]

This shitty thread again? That would make it 100th probably.

LFR is fine, it serves its purpose and it's pretty popular for casual players who don't want to commit or be judged by random asses in LFG tool.

People who don't want/like it can simply not do it, just like pet battles or holiday events or whatever.

[MrLachyG]

Where did they say this? The fact that they axed Tier sets altogether in BfA kind of indicates that they never really cared that much about Tier in the first place, much less whether it dropped in the LFR. This sounds like exaggerated bullshit to prove your non-existent point that Tier in the LFR is something that's reciprocal to player engagement.

the reason they dropped tier sets in BfA was very simple: azerite armor. they already had 4 gear slots, later becoming 5 with the leggo cloak, reserved for specific items. if they added tier sets in on top of that then it would probably look something like this:

azerite - head, shoulder, chest
hoa - neck
leggo - cloak
tier - hands, waist, legs, feet

which basically leaves wrist, rings, trinkets and weapons as the only outliers. which would suck even more. I dunno why they aren't bringing them back in SL; maybe they wanna see interactions with legendaries, soulbinds and covenent abilities before adding tier sets back into the mix which is fair enough

[Ragnarohk]

- Freeing up dev time to be used elsewhere.
- Forcing people to make friends to join organized team. Will be a significant boost to casual Normal Raiding with an increased recruitment pool from people migrating from LFR.

1) What dev time?

2) If you run LFR then a probable reason is that you can't commit to a schedule because of reasons. That happened to me. So I evolved from LFR to pugging normal/heroic. And the experience can be just as "bad" as people paint LFR to be.

[Velerios]

Where did they say this? The fact that they axed Tier sets altogether in BfA kind of indicates that they never really cared that much about Tier in the first place, much less whether it dropped in the LFR. This sounds like exaggerated bullshit to prove your non-existent point that Tier in the LFR is something that's reciprocal to player engagement.

This and that has absolutely nothing to do with each other: making tier sets non-lfr was the issue, axing tier sets alltogether has nothing to do with each other. That removing tier sets was as much of an big mistake as removing them from LFR I think they already know it, and I'm pretty sure that they are coming back with the next big raid tier or at least the last one.

Because Tier Sets are a big part of player engagement: in LFR but also in all other raids.

[Raelbo]

When LFR was created, it was a good way for more laid back players to get a taste of raiding without the hassle of organized raiding. It was also a very nice way of getting some gear on alts (specially during end of expac downtime).

It's still a good way for most players to participate in raiding without the need to commit to organised raiding. However it's pretty useless as a means of gear acquisition - which IMO is a massive pity, especially since there was absolutely no need to nerf LFR gear this hard.

However, with the advent of M+ and the relative ease with which chaining keys can quickly gear a new alt up, the need to run LFR for alt gearing seems to have depreciated.

Let's be clear. M+ is high end content and requires some degree of organisation. LFR is easy mode content which uses automated group forming. The alternative gear path for LFR path is world quests, N'zoth assaults, low end horrific visions etc.

I understand that due to real life commitments and other issues, some people may not necessarily have time for regular organized raid but still want to experience some form of raiding. Do people still run LFR exclusively to get a taste of raiding? If so, does running LFR leave you a real bad experience of the raiding scene as a whole?

I run LFR on some of my alts in order to complete quests and stuff like that. But then again I am part of an organised raiding group. Overall I wouldn't say that LFR is a bad experience. Obviously the experience can vary greatly depending on the attitude of the people you're grouped. Which means there is the possibility of it being really poor, but in my experience it's generally fairly decent. I reckon that the biggest problem in LFR is assholes who join LFR just to grief the other 24 players there - the sort of player who likes to look down on LFR and call it a cesspit of terribles, oblivious to the irony of their attitude.

If you look at the final N'zoth encounter which I have now done 3 times (on 3 different alts), it's actually been a pretty awesome experience. There have always been helpful players in the group who are willing to explain the fight, often repeatedly after each wipe as new people come in. And most players who are there are keen to do their best and help the group prevail. The minority who just don't seem to care, or won't listen (or worst, purposely try and sabotage the raid) get weeded out pretty quickly, so that by attempt 3-4 the group is entirely filled with the right kind of player to make the experience enjoyable.

I know a lot of people would think that wiping on the boss 5-10 times before killing it in LFR just goes to show how useless people in LFR are. But the opposite couldn't be further from the truth. N'zoth is not a boss in LFR who will just fall over. It totally requires people to have a decent idea of what they're doing. And just like in regular progression raiding where many wipes are part of the process, the same applies in LFR (just in a far more condensed amount of time). People do learn, they get better, and they earn that kill.

My personal experience of LFR on alts throughout BFA has been very poor. From AFK DPS, to people busy constantly crap-talking each other, the whole thing is a mess to the point of me avoiding it completely. Rather run M+ on alts.

I cannot say that has been my experience at all. LFR has a kick function which, used correctly, is highly effective at keeping those elements out

In that note, if LFR was removed from the game, would people (who only raid casually) feel motivated to join guilds that run Normal mode raids. There are plenty of such guilds who are willing to try out casual normal raiding. At least you can get a personality match with organized team and raid with a group of similar minded people with similar wow raiding goals.

I highly doubt it.

LFR was created because the target audience had no motivation to join guilds for the purpose of raiding even when there was no alternative. I see no reason to believe that has changed. It serves an important need in the game for a significant chunk of the playerbase.

Honestly, I find it asinine that some people keep wanting to suggest its removal. And if you're just looking at pure numbers, if they had to remove any modes of raiding, those that would make the most sense would be Mythic and Heroic (not that I am suggesting that they do, just trying to put things into a proper perspective)

[Velerios]

Blizz did not say it was a mistake. They said they can bring them back but the stand with what they said in the first place. Which is still not wrong. You basically lock in 4 pieces which you can not change even if you get another peice 50 iLvl better that that because you cannot break the boni...

I immensly HATED, that i had to run every difficultie until i get the setboni even if i did not need anything else from it anymore.
Removal of Tier sets has made me not care about LFR anymore. Leave it be and fine.
If the Tier sets came back and every raider is forced again in this shit it will be a worse experience for EVERYONE. Raiders are in a bad mood because they have to join LFR. LFR players will get annoyed because the dreaded "tryhards" will be back in their content.
Either make it the WoD approach or make LFR Sets completly disconnected from real raids.... which will still force everyone to run it because you can get the 4 set boni faster in certain circumstances.
Or just make Tier boni trivial. Then nobody would care.

Tier Sets and Tier bonuses has nothing to do with each other: I'm personally also against bringing back Tier Bonuses back as they did it because as you said it was bad that you could have something that is x ilvl better and still need to wear the old tier set. When i was actively raiding for example back in vanilla in Naxx as a Priest, i still couldn't get rid of the 2 piece tier 2 set, because it was simply too strong.

Visually i think tier sets are gorgeous and important for character progression, but set bonuses should maybe go away. What they could do is making tier set bonuses more of an conduit that you gain when you get the tier set, and can keep if you change to another; but always only one. So you still need to farm your tier set; but when you get something better, you can simply swap it out.

A different approach would be to make tier sets not interact with different difficulties: But other than your approach as to make LFR-Tier set not interact with each other; because this would be bad even for people in normal who want to pep up their gear from LFR.
Instead make it so that tier sets in difficulties only interact with the next higher or lower difficulty.

LFR interact with NORMAL Tier set Bonuses
NORMAL interact with LFR and HEROIC Tier Set Bonuses
HEROIC interact with NORMAL AND MYTHIC Tier Set Bonuses
MYTHIC interact with HEROIC TIER SET BONUSES.

So when you raid mythic, you can't go to normal and heroic for tier set bonuses.

[Geckoo]

The issue isn't the length of a raid, it's the commitment and schedules you need to put aside. Not everyone has the drive to play regularly enough to adhere to one, while others have sporadic schedules which demolish any ability to consistently raid. I'd play a shit ton of Normal raids, M+s and really long dungeons (Like BRD) / raids if it was convenient to just match up and do it.
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But that's the point. If you split the raid in smaller parts, the time required for each of them is way lower and the entry barrier also lowers. Planning to make a group to kill 10 bosses is a different monster than planning to kill 2-4 bosses, it's also perceived differently. It's still the same raid, just presented in a different way that is more friendly for the potential target audience for that mode.

[Raelbo]

- Freeing up dev time to be used elsewhere.

One of the major motivations to create LFR was to ensure that the significant resources required to create raids was justified. If it wasn't for LFR, I doubt that the dev time required to develop raids would be justifiable at all.

- Forcing people to make friends to join organized team. Will be a significant boost to casual Normal Raiding with an increased recruitment pool from people migrating from LFR.

You can't force people to make friends and join organised raiding. The idea that there would be any boost to casual normal raiding is completely unsubstantiated. There would be no increased recruitment pool from people who used to do LFR - they would simply stop raiding, and very likely stop playing altogether. It would be an unmitigated disaster for the game.

[PenguinChan]

But that's the point. If you split the raid in smaller parts, the time required for each of them is way lower and the entry barrier also lowers. Planning to make a group to kill 10 bosses is a different monster than planning to kill 2-4 bosses, it's also perceived differently. It's still the same raid, just presented in a different way that is more friendly for the potential target audience for that mode.

I get it, but that just means you'll have more splintered raiders on each wing and still have the issue of needing a guild to get it done. I understand the allure of it, as it creates a community; and I enjoy being in guilds too. But you as well as I know that regulars get into raids way more often - and PUGs are more than willing to take anyone with a decent ilvl. I'd rather have a system in place for the PUGs and streamline that experience.

[Kalisandra]

I don't think they should remove it. That said, they should and seem to have been making it unnecessary to use if you do actual raiding.

It's always been unnecessary if you do 'actual' raiding, and it's never been intended that LFR be part of any sort of progression through the levels of raids.

[TheRevenantHero]

1. LFR has now been around for 4 full expacs plus Dragon Soul. You would think that by now people would stop demanding it’s removal.

2. I would rather waste my time in LFR with no loot than having some kid tell me that I am not over-geared enough for his normal pug.

There are still people whining about wanting LFG removed too. I wish it would stop too but it will never happen.

[MoFalcon]

I see it as purely a learning tool.

Gives you a taste of the raid, an idea of what may happen in the raid on normal and above.

So you dont walk in completely ignorant of whats happening.

it can still be a toxic environment and not useful for much else.

[Blackmist]

I don't do PvP. Should we delete that too?

[ellieg]

We should remove mythic raids imo. Less than 10% of the population clear them. For pve, its the biggest source of complaints about spec balance. Plus it would remove a lot of elitists from the game who try to gatekeep what other players do.

[TrollHunter3000]

When LFR was created, it was a good way for more laid back players to get a taste of raiding without the hassle of organized raiding. It was also a very nice way of getting some gear on alts (specially during end of expac downtime).

However, with the advent of M+ and the relative ease with which chaining keys can quickly gear a new alt up, the need to run LFR for alt gearing seems to have depreciated.

I understand that due to real life commitments and other issues, some people may not necessarily have time for regular organized raid but still want to experience some form of raiding. Do people still run LFR exclusively to get a taste of raiding? If so, does running LFR leave you a real bad experience of the raiding scene as a whole?

My personal experience of LFR on alts throughout BFA has been very poor. From AFK DPS, to people busy constantly crap-talking each other, the whole thing is a mess to the point of me avoiding it completely. Rather run M+ on alts.

In that note, if LFR was removed from the game, would people (who only raid casually) feel motivated to join guilds that run Normal mode raids. There are plenty of such guilds who are willing to try out casual normal raiding. At least you can get a personality match with organized team and raid with a group of similar minded people with similar wow raiding goals.

Most people that just run LFR and no other raiding, aren't likely posters on this site. They're far more casual than you likely realize.

[ellieg]

If removing harder difficulties from the game is your way of seeing the game progress, I think games like Roblox is more suited to you.

I would rather see them spend their time improving the game rather than shoehorn in LFR every patch.

There are just as many reasons to remove mythic as there are for LFR. Or we could let ppl enjoy the game the way they want to instead of removing things from them.i don't understand how LFR is being shoehorned lol

[Headayke]

As long as the content is bad, I will use LFR because I am not commiting to the requirements of anything else on a bad game. You put out low tier content, ill play the bare minimum if at all. You put out good content and ill put in the time and effort to play the harder difficulties. If you dont even care about your own game, then why should I.

[BlackDruid96]

When LFR was created, it was a good way for more laid back players to get a taste of raiding without the hassle of organized raiding. It was also a very nice way of getting some gear on alts (specially during end of expac downtime).

However, with the advent of M+ and the relative ease with which chaining keys can quickly gear a new alt up, the need to run LFR for alt gearing seems to have depreciated.

I understand that due to real life commitments and other issues, some people may not necessarily have time for regular organized raid but still want to experience some form of raiding. Do people still run LFR exclusively to get a taste of raiding? If so, does running LFR leave you a real bad experience of the raiding scene as a whole?

My personal experience of LFR on alts throughout BFA has been very poor. From AFK DPS, to people busy constantly crap-talking each other, the whole thing is a mess to the point of me avoiding it completely. Rather run M+ on alts.

In that note, if LFR was removed from the game, would people (who only raid casually) feel motivated to join guilds that run Normal mode raids. There are plenty of such guilds who are willing to try out casual normal raiding. At least you can get a personality match with organized team and raid with a group of similar minded people with similar wow raiding goals.

I think we need to improve the system, not get rid of it.

[Jtbrig7390]

In that note, if LFR was removed from the game, would people (who only raid casually) feel motivated to join guilds that run Normal mode raids.

No and that's why it was put in the game in the first place.

LFR pay's for the raiding content you get to enjoy, this has been said time and time again and this topic isn't anything new. LFR has been in WoW longer than it hasn't and its about time people got use to it.

LFR isn't going anywhere.