LFR and whether it still has a place in WoW

[SirBeef]

So many bad takes I don't have all the time to bother quoting.

But, LFR was introduced on Blizzards end to justify the enormous expense making raids cost. When only seeing 15% or less of total players stepping inside, 3% in the case of Naxx40, there was literally no justification for raids.

For the players, it was introduced so those who wanted to see the story/content could do so without dedicating themselves to a raiding guild and their demands and time commitments.

That is it. It was never designed ad a means to get cheap or free epics. It was never designed as a stepping stone into organized raiding.

Those who don't need to use it to can just ignore it. You know, like most functioning people do when there is something around they are not interested in.

LFR doesn't take away from higher levels of raiding. I raid mythic(previously heroic) and LFR never bothered me. I never felt I had to run it to get my tier set or trinkets faster, nor have I ever been "forced" to run LFR for gear. If you feel you need to do that, that is your problem. If your guild requires it, find a less toxic guild or do what you are expected to to be competitive. If you were required to run normal instead of LFR would you be here asking for the removal of normal?

As for the stepping stone argument, the people LFR mostly targets, are those who would never raid in the first place. They were not raiding before LFR. Removing it wouldn't have them suddenly start PuGging normal.

But really all these threads are disingenuous. They are never about the betterment of the game. It's a big I don't like the thing so Blizzard should remove it.

Frankly these threads never go anywhere, never bring up anything new, and should be a forbidden topic. Considering it's just an attempt to troll those that use LFR.

[goldlock]

Except it's not a nonsense argument.

Source on your argument? I've quickly read that Miyamoto made Super Mario Brothers 2 (Lost Levels) "too difficult for the US market", but I can't find anything on most players dying at the first opportunity.

Honestly im not sure it was something related to television but don't get stuck on that detail reddit.

Lets choose... I don't know the end of the first world? After each stage their are fewer and fewer players that see the content so why continue making it would a mode that disables all enemies and slowly leads mario to success?

[Otimus]

Well its not my problem you dont understand how much better azerite and trinkets are from LFR compared to emissaries, unlike the vast majority of players.

Anyone who gives a shit about the power difference between those things and emissaries isn't the kind of people that'd even be bothering with LFR in the first place, save for maybe some edge cases that just want gear with no effort while afking to get gear do different, higher level things faster and I have a hard time believing these people exist as the quantity and time investment of LFR gear just doesn't seem to be a smart way to go about that.

[goldlock]

Anyone who gives a shit about the power difference between those things and emissaries isn't the kind of people that'd even be bothering with LFR in the first place, save for maybe some edge cases that just want gear with no effort while afking to get gear do different, higher level things faster and I have a hard time believing these people exist as the quantity and time investment of LFR gear just doesn't seem to be a smart way to go about that.

I thought azerite was better from emissaries?

Azerite armor not dropping from dungeons was a terrible idea I got mine from warfronts for my alt but I am super slow leveling and gearing alts i might of been drawn into that rats nest! ugh makes me shiver just thinking about it... though I imagine I would just pug normal or buy the cheapo dust gear first.

[ellieg]

That is your opinion, Im sticking to my point that it creates bad players that dim the playerpool for higher content.
What LFR being shoehorned means is that they constantly put it back in when there is no need for it.

Okay, but dont you play an MMORPG because you want to make connections with other people and overcome obstacles with them? If all interactions you do with other players consist of dungeon-finder and LFR where most players just play with a single-player mindset and a rather toxic attitude towards the content, wouldnt you have a better experience playing a really good single-player game instead? Since thats the way you choose to spend your time in WoW anyway, as you've described.

If people say they queue LFR for the story, I think there are room for improvement for the "tourist mode" that it was supposed to be, and has been for some time.

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But what about all these so called "hardcore LFR" players people claim there are, that play LFR as their "ultimate end-game", these things surely matter to them.

Multiple ppl in this thread have stated their need for LFR. Mostly around the ease of access and not having to schedule. These players wouldn't suddenly join your higher raids if LFR was removed. So there is a need for LFR. I just don't understand why the Anti LFR ppl are so against it. Like its corrupting the purity of their gaming experience.

Also some ppl just like the playstyle of WoW. For all intents and purposes it is a single player game to them. I personally have no desire to make any internet friends.

[Otimus]

That is your opinion, Im sticking to my point that it creates bad players that dim the playerpool for higher content.
What LFR being shoehorned means is that they constantly put it back in when there is no need for it.

Okay, but dont you play an MMORPG because you want to make connections with other people and overcome obstacles with them? If all interactions you do with other players consist of dungeon-finder and LFR where most players just play with a single-player mindset and a rather toxic attitude towards the content, wouldnt you have a better experience playing a really good single-player game instead? Since thats the way you choose to spend your time in WoW anyway, as you've described.

If people say they queue LFR for the story, I think there are room for improvement for the "tourist mode" that it was supposed to be, and has been for some time.

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But what about all these so called "hardcore LFR" players people claim there are, that play LFR as their "ultimate end-game", these things surely matter to them.

These people barely exist. LFR is basically worthless and it's people like you's fault and you're STILL not satisfied.

[VinceVega]

Tier Sets and Tier bonuses has nothing to do with each other: I'm personally also against bringing back Tier Bonuses back as they did it because as you said it was bad that you could have something that is x ilvl better and still need to wear the old tier set. When i was actively raiding for example back in vanilla in Naxx as a Priest, i still couldn't get rid of the 2 piece tier 2 set, because it was simply too strong.

Visually i think tier sets are gorgeous and important for character progression, but set bonuses should maybe go away. What they could do is making tier set bonuses more of an conduit that you gain when you get the tier set, and can keep if you change to another; but always only one. So you still need to farm your tier set; but when you get something better, you can simply swap it out.

A different approach would be to make tier sets not interact with different difficulties: But other than your approach as to make LFR-Tier set not interact with each other; because this would be bad even for people in normal who want to pep up their gear from LFR.
Instead make it so that tier sets in difficulties only interact with the next higher or lower difficulty.

LFR interact with NORMAL Tier set Bonuses
NORMAL interact with LFR and HEROIC Tier Set Bonuses
HEROIC interact with NORMAL AND MYTHIC Tier Set Bonuses
MYTHIC interact with HEROIC TIER SET BONUSES.

So when you raid mythic, you can't go to normal and heroic for tier set bonuses.

Well yeah^^

I kept the visuals aside in my post. I think the BfA sets have been beautiful but diminished wow factor as 1/3 of the playerbase had the exact same... so why wear it?
They could make tierboni like the old shoulder entchantments. Where you get it once and can reapply it for a small obolus to another piece of gear.

[Sluvs]

- Freeing up dev time to be used elsewhere.
- Forcing people to make friends to join organized team. Will be a significant boost to casual Normal Raiding with an increased recruitment pool from people migrating from LFR.

I have a feeling that it does not actually cost that much development time. This is not mythic, they don't spend time creating mechanics for it, they just take normal difficulty and tune down the numbers/remove a mechanic.

And I dont think people will go to normal difficulty if LFR is removed. I think people won't raid. Currently, I have very little to no time to play (thankfully it's only temporary) , without LFR I am simply not raiding.

[Malikath]

Remove the gear incentive, then the only people who play it will be there for the story, then we'll really see how many will do it based on that old excuse.

I doubt any will, or even many do now with as redundant it is without anything mandating weekly runs for legendary progress like in MoP.

[Otimus]

I thought azerite was better from emissaries?

Azerite armor not dropping from dungeons was a terrible idea I got mine from warfronts for my alt but I am super slow leveling and gearing alts i might of been drawn into that rats nest! ugh makes me shiver just thinking about it... though I imagine I would just pug normal or buy the cheapo dust gear first.

I really don't know. I have so little enthusiasm for the content in this expansion I've barely looked into the min maxing of anything past the first few months :/

[Lurker1]

You are not going to force anyone to do anything. If you remove LFR, those people simply will not raid at all. It just amazes me that people continue to believe in this fantasy world where people will jump to normals just by removing LFR. I have a better idea. How about you just ignore LFR and let those who run it run it?

Bingo ill be going to a NewMMorpg game instead it,s not like before we have alot of chooses now.

[Cyanu]

the purpose of LFR is pretty simple:

1)it has no real requirements to enter (other than some tirvial ilvl score) so you can gear your alts there

2)it allows people who do not raid (dedicated pvpers, role players, soloists , casuals, pet battlers and who know how many kind of people we probably don't even know they exist) to see the story

also LFR has no 'downside' per say, if you don't like it don't do it

therefore removing it is pointless because we lose the minor benefits it provides while we gain nothing

[Unholyground]

They should put visual aids in LFR as it is meant to be a way to experience the content/story. If people are not going to listen or read they need an in-game system to help teach people what they should be attacking and where they should be moving but have it automated and built by Blizz.

[Swnem]

I think there is much reform needed to the game structure.
The problem is blizzard tells the story through the raids. If the raids were independant from the main story, like most other mmo's, there would be less of a need for LFR, or it could be it's own raid, like FF does.

I think that would be better.

[Otimus]

Remove the gear incentive, then the only people who play it will be there for the story, then we'll really see how many will do it based on that old excuse.

I doubt any will, or even many do now with as redundant it is without anything mandating weekly runs for legendary progress like in MoP.

To be fair, would you do most any pve content in the game more than once if you literally got nothing out of it but story? I just don't get that as an argument. Of course people want rewards. It's part of the gameplay loop of an MMORPG. Outside of just playing with your friends, why the hell would anyone repeat content just for the hell of it? It's not like WoW is king among compelling gameplay in the world of gaming or anything.

[Otimus]

Im not advocating for its removal, but I think it could be improved to something better than it currently is.


Yeah Im sure you hold the data of what types of players there are that run LFR.

You legitimately think min maxers are joining LFR in any appreciacable number?

[Dilbon]

LFR was never a problem. It's somewhat awkward solution to a problem.

[Otimus]

You're free to elaborate on how LFR is worthless because of "people like me" btw.

The anti-LFR crowd complained until basically the mode was basically not worth running more than once and only if you cared about the story (or just got absurdly unlucky with drops or something and needed to pad some shit out.) So it more or less IS a tourist mode, and you're still not satisfied.

[goldlock]

the purpose of LFR is pretty simple:

1)it has no real requirements to enter (other than some tirvial ilvl score) so you can gear your alts there

2)it allows people who do not raid (dedicated pvpers, role players, soloists , casuals, pet battlers and who know how many kind of people we probably don't even know they exist) to see the story

also LFR has no 'downside' per say, if you don't like it don't do it

therefore removing it is pointless because we lose the minor benefits it provides while we gain nothing

1) It fails... the barrage of bi weekly events can get you fully heroic geared pretty quick lfr isn't really used to gear anything.

2) I can sum up 90% of a the entirety of wow's raid bosses with these quote " You can't kill me!" " OO AAGGG EEE" " How did you kill me!?! dats improbable!!!!"

You do lfr z'noth and tell me there are no downsides...

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The anti-LFR crowd complained until basically the mode was basically not worth running more than once and only if you cared about the story (or just got absurdly unlucky with drops or something and needed to pad some shit out.) So it more or less IS a tourist mode, and you're still not satisfied.

I mean... I would like to see its gear be identical to a heroic five man so the difficulty reflects it but with all the terrible systems being crammed into end game I can honestly say ive not thought of lfr beyond a source of transmog since legion.

[Florena]

I will always be in favor of lfr at least as long as raids are tied to the main story.

There are some exceptions, but generally raids are the climaxes to stories that are started and developed via quests and dungeons. Easy, casually accessible content with no need for an organized group or special coordination.

I support LFR as a means for casual players to be able to see for themselves, and not just through youtube, how these story arcs end. Imagine doing all of the Nightborne quests in Suramar but not getting to see the raid because you don't have the time or interest in organized raiding.

You could say that maybe M+ makes the loot from lfr not a requirement, but IMO LFR serves a necessary story element as well. If raid stories were all self contained, then I wouldn't mind lfr going away. But as the end points to story arcs that are started and built up through quests and dungeons, I 100% support lfr as a means to get that story without having to invest in raiding.

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I dont recall any of this at all, can you link any patchnotes or something with substance from wowhead that confirms any of this?

I'm guessing this is in reference to tier sets and good trinkets being removed from LFR in WOD I think it was?