Quick thoughts about two sentences

[Arrashi]

Nope. I made the claim that wiping out life isn't their primary goal - they might have to cause great death and destruction to complete their goal, but death and destruction itself isn't

Oh yeah its "primary" goal now, lets move goal post a little more than.

[exochaft]

Part of the reason the villains can't win in WoW is because there's no player option to join the villain in any meaningful way. If you play other RPGs of various flavors, quite a few of them have you start off as the hero, and eventually you can come across a choice whether you remain a hero or join the villains. However, for an MMO, that's a very tall order, especially within the constraints of WoW. I think the developers pass off the concept as "Well, you're Alliance, so Horde are the villains... and they win sometime!", and vice versa. Now, this is heavily simplified with not much nuance to it all, but WoW being an MMORPG kind of forces us to be the the heroes, at least from our perspective.

However, I am tired of constantly being portrayed as a hero or a champion of my faction/class. Suprisingly (but not really), not everyone wants to play the role of the grand hero. That's like saying everyone wants to be a raider, which isn't true. Everyone has different goals and desires, and they want to play that out in their character, but quite a bit of the narrative is out of our control in WoW. Blizz has tried to add a bit of agency for the players, such as picking to align with or be against Sylvannas... but WoW could use a LOT more of that with much more nuance and detail. It's hard for implement in an MMO, but I'm probably not the only person who would crave that.

[Mehrunes]

"Just invent time travel fucking duh!"
"Well how do you think we could invent time travel?"
"I dont know, that is the job of the overpaid hacks that preform science"

You have to be kidding me. the "I dont know, thats their job not mine" logic...

If you dont know, then dont push a point, easy, get it through that skull of yours.

I wouldn't denigrate other people over their logic if you're seriously trying to compare writing a story about the good guys losing and time travel. Not only is the latter significantly more complex and potentially literally impossible, but the former has already been achieved multiple times by writers better than the mud-below-the-barrel that works at Blizzard.

Tarb, I literally explained it in the first post. But seems you can't read that far back.

But yeah no totally the good guys lost in empire strikes back and the bad guys won. There was never ever a sequel ever nope it never happened. There was never a follow up where the good guys won. Nope. Not at all, nope it didn't happen.
And nope, in dark Knight and such yeah no totally, they never had the villian lose, nope never, Baine was never defeated, even if the world around him was still in havoc, the bad guys still won and the hero died. Wait.

If only WoW had expansions or something where a villain's victory could have a followup where the good guys win in the end... Also, you're moving your goalposts from individual movies to entire series now. And even then that point is moot because some of @Tarba's examples have no sequels, just the villain winning.

A better example might have even been Ramsey. For all his flaws, all the wins that he accumulated (which were A LOT) were a logical conclusion of everyones decisions.

Right. Especially the part where he fucked over Stannis' entire army with his "20 good men". The only way this horseshit (and, consequently, everything Ramsay achieved afterwards) was a "logical conclusion of everyone's decisions" is if Stannis' army made the decision to lobotomize themselves off-screen.

[DeltrusDisc]

Crazy idea.

N'Zoth could have not been defeated but escaped.

Literally anything could have been done to make it more impactful. I feel like the ending they gave him was the least thought-provoking, easiest on the Blizzard budget, and frankly, lamest they could give him. For such an important villain, who was built up FOR SO LONG, this WAS, without a doubt, a boring, weak ending. This was the ending for a first or second tier of an expansion boss, not the final tier. It would have been one of the weakest among mid-tier, too, because most of them have been better than this, already. lol Defeating Kil'Jaeden was more fulfilling. Defeating Yogg Saron was more fulfilling. Defeating the Thunder King was more fulfilling. Defeating Kael'thas and Lady Vashj were more fulfilling. Mid-expansion tier content being defeated should never be more fulfilling than final tier, never.

[Varodoc]

Crazy idea.

N'Zoth could have not been defeated but escaped.

Literally anything could have been done to make it more impactful. I feel like the ending they gave him was the least thought-provoking, easiest on the Blizzard budget, and frankly, lamest they could give him. For such an important villain, who was built up FOR SO LONG, this WAS, without a doubt, a boring, weak ending. This was the ending for a first or second tier of an expansion boss, not the final tier. Defeating Kil'Jaeden was more fulfilling. Defeating Yogg Saron was more fulfilling. Defeating the Thunder King was more fulfilling. Defeating Kael'thas and Lady Vashj were more fulfilling. Mid-expansion tier content being defeated should never be more fulfilling than final tier, never.

It's not really crazy. Danuser himself said that we should not forget what N'Zoth taught us about visions. He will 100% come back in the future.

[DeltrusDisc]

It's not really crazy. Danuser himself said that we should not forget what N'Zoth taught us about visions. He will 100% come back in the future.

Could have been executed better.

[Varodoc]

Could have been executed better.

Yes, but honestly it was not surprising and frankly it was executed better than some of the popular leaks I read.

There was for example this Shadowlands leak last summer that was just pure dogshit, because it had 8.3 focus on Death instead of Old Gods, which meant N'Zoth would have literally been doing nothing after he was freed in 8.2. At least N'Zoth ended up causing some trouble, even if it was short-lived. It was mentioned in Shadows Rising that many Alliance and Horde soldiers died against his forces in Pandaria and Uldum, and he was a threat to the entire universe as stated in the encounter journal.

[DeltrusDisc]

Yes, but honestly it was not surprising and frankly it was executed better than some of the popular leaks I read.

There was for example this Shadowlands leak last summer that was just pure dogshit, because it had 8.3 focus on Death instead of Old Gods, which meant N'Zoth would have literally been doing nothing after he was freed in 8.2. At least N'Zoth ended up causing some trouble, even if it was short-lived. It was mentioned in Shadows Rising that many Alliance and Horde soldiers died against his forces in Pandaria and Uldum, and he was a threat to the entire universe as stated in the encounter journal.

Sure didn't feel like it. =|

[Skildar]

Expansion philosophy now doesn't limit a story to one expansion.

It is a very true statement, not all stories should end at the end of every expansions. Of course you must have some losse ends and things to look for in the next episode.

But the way Sylvanas has been handled since legion is just disastrous. As a horde character I hated the stormheim questline, you witness sylvanas making a bargain with Helya and are left in the dark on what it is while you are forced by other leaders to murder Helya... And bfa was just a pain as you are forced to follow the orders of Sylvanas who's now a crazy warmonger when the other alternative is a suicidal saurfang who's depressed over axing a alliance champion in the back during a battle...

Ok it's good to let some unfinished business from one expansion to be resolved in the next but not on the main story arc and not with so many contradictions!

Ion talks about the disappointment some felt for N'Zoth's end, but at the end of the day we are the heroes of the story and we will always defeat villains and make way for new villains to enter.

This last bfa patch is good, they've made qome quality content around the madness theme. But the issue that's bugging everyone is mainly that N'zoth only escaped and didn't have time to shine, didn't have time to let us wonder.

The titan forges were re-activated, the secret of N'zoth's madness was researched by wrathion, I know preparation went into this rp wise but still we have erased n'zoth with a neckpiece which job was to heal the world. While doing so in the cinematic, no one struggled, nobody suffered. It seemed too easy, too clean with no traces left of the vilain nor its black empire.

[Gamespud]

I never even saw the first quote so I might as well address it now. I like this new narrative that expansions are linked between each others (which isn't really new anymore since it's been going on since WoD). It makes the overall story more cohesive, because all the current events tie back to something that happened in a previous expansion. For example, the Fourth War and subsequent Shadowlands expansion can be traced back to Sargeras stabbing Azeroth at the end of Legion. This clearly shows that the storytelling is more ambitious than it was back in TBC or WotLK, which were self-contained storylines.

A great example of this is the N'Zoth's storyline. The lead-up to N'Zoth's release was masterfully done, there were hints since Emerald Nightmare in Legion that something dark was coming, and it all escalated in 8.2 when Azshara liberated N'Zoth.

The last section of this comment is part of the problem and why Ion's statement is completely missing the fact. The lead-up to N'zoth was great, we've known about him since at least Cata and slowly over time fed droplets of storyline until finally he's fully unleashed upon the world.... and dead in a week. He didn't get to do ANYTHING. The lead-up was great but it was just that, lead-up.. when it comes to N'zoth's actual story it's "Got released, then died in record time." Defeating bad guys is not a problem. HOW you defeat bad guys is a problem. There's such things as pacing, setbacks, minor losses, minor victories, so many ways they could have taken the story and end the expansion with a perfectly enjoyable finale that still leaves us with an Old God on the loose but no. Just kill him... Not like much even happened in the patch anyways considering this "World Shattering Event" was felt in a whole 2 isolated zones.

[Varodoc]

The last section of this comment is part of the problem and why Ion's statement is completely missing the fact. The lead-up to N'zoth was great, we've known about him since at least Cata and slowly over time fed droplets of storyline until finally he's fully unleashed upon the world.... and dead in a week. He didn't get to do ANYTHING. The lead-up was great but it was just that, lead-up.. when it comes to N'zoth's actual story it's "Got released, then died in record time." Defeating bad guys is not a problem. HOW you defeat bad guys is a problem. There's such things as pacing, setbacks, minor losses, minor victories, so many ways they could have taken the story and end the expansion with a perfectly enjoyable finale that still leaves us with an Old God on the loose but no. Just kill him... Not like much even happened in the patch anyways considering this "World Shattering Event" was felt in a whole 2 isolated zones.

That's why I only talked about the lead-up. I know the execution was trash, but the lead-up was great, and it was great precisely because it spanned multiple expansions. You could even say it started in Cataclysm, since N'Zoth was the one behind Deathwing and the Hour of Twilight.

[Gamespud]

And question, how would you do that in an MMO like wow?

One relatively simple way to have done this for an alternate BFA. Make the expansion end not with killing N'zoth but releasing him. Players get their big win (yay we beat Azshara) and so does N'zoth (now time for expansion bait!) Hell you don't even need to have it lead directly into a N'zoth expansion we still could have done Shadowlands and Blizz could just pull the usual "The bad guy is just floating around in the background gathering strength" so we deal with him in the next expansion instead.

Edit: Also "lack of enemy/flavor type" is always the dumbest excuse for why something can't be inflated to a full expansion. You're telling me the concept of an Eldritch Horror Cult God that can alter the minds of mere mortals and turn friends against foe, or an entire planet that happens to be the Headquarters of the Universal Death Machine of Demons and Corruption.. Neither are possibly able to compete with the kind of content of "Land where Pandas live" or "small rocky island that a warlock raised from the seafloor". It's called imagination.. think of all the ways N'zoth could have corrupted entire civilizations against us or how fel corruption might create unique environments that are more than just black rocks and green lava.

[FelPlague]

One relatively simple way to have done this for an alternate BFA. Make the expansion end not with killing N'zoth but releasing him. Players get their big win (yay we beat Azshara) and so does N'zoth (now time for expansion bait!) Hell you don't even need to have it lead directly into a N'zoth expansion we still could have done Shadowlands and Blizz could just pull the usual "The bad guy is just floating around in the background gathering strength" so we deal with him in the next expansion instead.

Edit: Also "lack of enemy/flavor type" is always the dumbest excuse for why something can't be inflated to a full expansion. You're telling me the concept of an Eldritch Horror Cult God that can alter the minds of mere mortals and turn friends against foe, or an entire planet that happens to be the Headquarters of the Universal Death Machine of Demons and Corruption.. Neither are possibly able to compete with the kind of content of "Land where Pandas live" or "small rocky island that a warlock raised from the seafloor". It's called imagination.. think of all the ways N'zoth could have corrupted entire civilizations against us or how fel corruption might create unique environments that are more than just black rocks and green lava.

1. funny... you say that but seems people are mad we didnt kill sylvanas, or garrosh, they were huge shit fests of people mad we didnt kill them, plus thats not them winning, thats them just getting to part of their plan. guldan escpaing us in WoD was not the legion winning...

2. Yes, please, if you wish to show me how the old gods could have a large variety of enemies go right ahead. cause your main thing you literally say is just "we would fight a lot of corrupted player races" which gets boring fast fighting the 50th corrupted X race. Eldritch horror is super limited, because the concept of eldritch horror is you cant even imagine, you cant even see its true horror, what you see is simply what your mind is able to comprehend, and even then eldritch horror was super limited, many of the thigns that were horrifying then are pretty fucking basic now, like the shadows over innsmouth.

3. Who brought argus into this? argus could have easily been an entire expansion, yes the planet would be somewhat limited, the amount of demon races out there is insane. Also yeah, guess what, those are both LANDS pandaria is a LAND, and the broken isles were a LAND.
a realm however is limited, when you see the emerald dream, and you see the black empire, think of if the shadowlands expansion, was instead the "maldraxus expansion" that is on the same level, there is only so much that can come from this ONE realm.
The emerald dream is very small in scope of variety, so too is the black empire, these are compareable to 1 zone in shadowlands. The black empire could have been 1 zone at max. I love how you say "create unique enviroments that are more then just black rocks and green lava"
Ok? example of this unique enviroment? what would it be?
1. void corrupted version of current zone
2. dream corrupted version of current zone
3. black empire

ok. what else?

[TheFirstOnes]

Hard to make an expansion where the Villain won the previous one and is now ruling the planet, or has destroyed the planet, etc...

That would require a LOT of game changing shit and time.

[Gamespud]

1. funny... you say that but seems people are mad we didnt kill sylvanas, or garrosh, they were huge shit fests of people mad we didnt kill them, plus thats not them winning, thats them just getting to part of their plan. guldan escpaing us in WoD was not the legion winning...

2. Yes, please, if you wish to show me how the old gods could have a large variety of enemies go right ahead. cause your main thing you literally say is just "we would fight a lot of corrupted player races" which gets boring fast fighting the 50th corrupted X race. Eldritch horror is super limited, because the concept of eldritch horror is you cant even imagine, you cant even see its true horror, what you see is simply what your mind is able to comprehend, and even then eldritch horror was super limited, many of the thigns that were horrifying then are pretty fucking basic now, like the shadows over innsmouth.

3. Who brought argus into this? argus could have easily been an entire expansion, yes the planet would be somewhat limited, the amount of demon races out there is insane. Also yeah, guess what, those are both LANDS pandaria is a LAND, and the broken isles were a LAND.
a realm however is limited, when you see the emerald dream, and you see the black empire, think of if the shadowlands expansion, was instead the "maldraxus expansion" that is on the same level, there is only so much that can come from this ONE realm.
The emerald dream is very small in scope of variety, so too is the black empire, these are compareable to 1 zone in shadowlands. The black empire could have been 1 zone at max. I love how you say "create unique enviroments that are more then just black rocks and green lava"
Ok? example of this unique enviroment? what would it be?
1. void corrupted version of current zone
2. dream corrupted version of current zone
3. black empire

ok. what else?

1. But N'zoth breaking out of his prison isn't Guldan escaping team "Draenor is Free!". It's a climax to a story dating back since cata that there's another old god out there still imprisoned trying to break free. It's a MAJOR WIN for him.

2. I'm too tired to do serious enough brainstorming for this but is it really that hard to believe that an Old God could employ more forces than some tentacle-boys? Just use you're damn imagination.

3. Admittedly I brought Argus a bit out of left field because I have a bit of a sore spot for people saying "you can't do that because there's not enough variety" which goes back to Argus being shit on us with just black rocks and green lava. But you want some creative fel-corrupted environments? Okay..
A. Corrupted Swamp, sickly trees, haunted by the souls of millions of draenei that were purged for resisting.
B. Triumphant Manari Eredar city that shows the Eredar have done something since joining the Legion rather than hiding in the ruins of their own civilization.
C. An Eternal Battleground where the last vestiges of the Army of the Light have been holding in their assault against Argus with the land twisted between Fel and Light alike as even the land fights itself under the weight of these titans.

That's just what I've got off 3 minutes of thinking, I'm sure you hire a full team with a big budget they can make something that stretches that shit out for miles. Don't believe me? Look at all the people dismissing Shadowlands as impossible because "it's just the death version of Emerald Dream, just gray and boring, nothing there."

[FelPlague]

1. But N'zoth breaking out of his prison isn't Guldan escaping team "Draenor is Free!". It's a climax to a story dating back since cata that there's another old god out there still imprisoned trying to break free. It's a MAJOR WIN for him.

2. I'm too tired to do serious enough brainstorming for this but is it really that hard to believe that an Old God could employ more forces than some tentacle-boys? Just use you're damn imagination.

3. Admittedly I brought Argus a bit out of left field because I have a bit of a sore spot for people saying "you can't do that because there's not enough variety" which goes back to Argus being shit on us with just black rocks and green lava. But you want some creative fel-corrupted environments? Okay..
A. Corrupted Swamp, sickly trees, haunted by the souls of millions of draenei that were purged for resisting.
B. Triumphant Manari Eredar city that shows the Eredar have done something since joining the Legion rather than hiding in the ruins of their own civilization.
C. An Eternal Battleground where the last vestiges of the Army of the Light have been holding in their assault against Argus with the land twisted between Fel and Light alike as even the land fights itself under the weight of these titans.

That's just what I've got off 3 minutes of thinking, I'm sure you hire a full team with a big budget they can make something that stretches that shit out for miles. Don't believe me? Look at all the people dismissing Shadowlands as impossible because "it's just the death version of Emerald Dream, just gray and boring, nothing there."

Alright you cant read got it.
i again said argus is fine, stop fucking twisting shit.
i asked for a nzoth expansion zones and bosses and stuff, and you gave me more argus stuff.

[Gamespud]

As I said I'm tired. But I'm sure you're capable of using your grand intellect to have at least as much creativity as Blizzard did when they realized Pandaria didn't have to be 100% pandas.

[FelPlague]

As I said I'm tired. But I'm sure you're capable of using your grand intellect to have at least as much creativity as Blizzard did when they realized Pandaria didn't have to be 100% pandas.

Pandaria is a LAND filled with other beings.
Black empire is a realm filled with ONLY the black empire.

[Maxilian]

I mean... that's literally what happens in 99% of the stories? I can't think of any franchise in which the villain ultimately wins, or at least any popular franchise.

Warhammer?

Either way, i don't think the villain have to ultimately win, but they can have a big win just to be defeated later.

[Varodoc]

Warhammer?

Either way, i don't think the villain have to ultimately win, but they can have a big win just to be defeated later.

Aren't they bringing back Warhammer Fantasy, and thus retconning Chaos' victory?