How do you control a Toxic Community like World of Warcraft or most other MMOs have?

[Nobleshield]

We're in a time where toxicity is openly encouraged. Especially by the internet. How can Blizzard change human behavior? Is it really their duty to?

In their game I would say yes, it is their duty to discourage it as much as possible

[arkanon]

In their game I would say yes, it is their duty to discourage it as much as possible

They use two methods of controlling it currently - player controlled such as the ignore function, report functions etc. And secondly their side with following up reports, the in game rules, and action taken against accounts.

I dont believe it is their duty to take any action beyond that - in fact, they do a much better job than the early days of SWTOR - that shit was the wild west. Anything in chat was absolutely acceptable - i learned some fantastic new jokes that i wouldnt repeat here, as well as some amazing slurs and insults. That may have changed in time, but i guess it is much easier to manage 11 players than a few million.

[Saltysquidoon]

Even the ones that are 5% or even 10% are calculated in a vacuum. For most players, they will get better overall performance playing a spec they are comfortable with and enjoy compared to simply copying FOTM shit posted on some website or discord, or trying to emulate the top 5%. Far too often i see average or below average players trying to emulate the success of the top 5%, only to fail horribly and perform much, much lower than the "easy" spec with a 10% lower potential output.

I mean the final talent in every single warlock spec is at the very least an exception to this rule. Not only do they make up a massive disproportionate amount of your damage but the differences between them makes picking the 'wrong' one tantamount to trolling. Playing demonic consumption badly is still going to be better than playing nether portal well (no matter how much more subjectively fun and thematic I find nether portal).

[arkanon]

the differences between them makes picking the 'wrong' one tantamount to trolling.

No, it doesnt. Not even close - this is an absolutely ridiculous claim to make.

[Saltysquidoon]

No, it doesnt. Not even close - this is an absolutely ridiculous claim to make.

How so? You are directly choosing to do significantly less damage and actively not synergize with your azerite traits for no benefit. What would you call that? Keep in mind I specifically picked talents that overcontribute to the spec's dps.

[Logwyn]

You can't control it. Best thing to do is to put people on ignore and move on with your day.

Sounds like a method of control.

[arkanon]

How so? You are directly choosing to do significantly less damage and actively not synergize with your azerite traits for no benefit. What would you call that? Keep in mind I specifically picked talents that overcontribute to the spec's dps.

They are playing the game the way they enjoy. Thats it - i honestly think you have some serious growing up to do if you think you have some given right to control how others play. If you want to form a group, and make one of the requirements that you get to tell each member exactly what items to equip, exactly what talents to use, and exactly what essences etc they must use, more power to you - im sure you group will be hugely successful and you will be SWAMPED with applicants.

What you are presenting as "trolling" and "being bad on purpose" is wildly inaccurate and to be honest, extremely pathetic. Its a game - its people playing the game with the talents they enjoy, nothing more, nothing less.

You are constantly misrepresenting their thought process when making this choice - your claim is that individuals look at the talents and say "right, this one will let me to 50 dps, and this one will let me do 60 dps - based PURELY on those factors, im taking the 50 dps one!" which is absolutely ridiculous and entirely disingenuous of you to say. What people are actually doing, is saying "this one will do 50 dps, and this one will do 60 dps. Shame i really hate the 60 dps one, and absolutely LOVE the 50 dps one" Or maybe they are saying "yeah, the active one will give me a couple percent extra dps, but i find it really complicated and it messes with my rotation - ill take the easier talent and enjoy my time playing the game"

You also completely ignore the fact for a massive portion of the player base, they dont even think about the output of each talent, they just say "oh shit, i love the look of that talent! so cool!" and take it.

All of heroic can comfortably be cleared with sub optimal talents and gear on every player in there, and mythic is only a TINY percentage of the playerbase.

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Sounds like a method of control.

so if i choose to ignore every post you make in this thread, i am in some way controlling you? A bold claim, for sure.

[Logwyn]

They are playing the game the way they enjoy. Thats it - i honestly think you have some serious growing up to do if you think you have some given right to control how others play. If you want to form a group, and make one of the requirements that you get to tell each member exactly what items to equip, exactly what talents to use, and exactly what essences etc they must use, more power to you - im sure you group will be hugely successful and you will be SWAMPED with applicants.

What you are presenting as "trolling" and "being bad on purpose" is wildly inaccurate and to be honest, extremely pathetic. Its a game - its people playing the game with the talents they enjoy, nothing more, nothing less.

You are constantly misrepresenting their thought process when making this choice - your claim is that individuals look at the talents and say "right, this one will let me to 50 dps, and this one will let me do 60 dps - based PURELY on those factors, im taking the 50 dps one!" which is absolutely ridiculous and entirely disingenuous of you to say. What people are actually doing, is saying "this one will do 50 dps, and this one will do 60 dps. Shame i really hate the 60 dps one, and absolutely LOVE the 50 dps one" Or maybe they are saying "yeah, the active one will give me a couple percent extra dps, but i find it really complicated and it messes with my rotation - ill take the easier talent and enjoy my time playing the game"

You also completely ignore the fact for a massive portion of the player base, they dont even think about the output of each talent, they just say "oh shit, i love the look of that talent! so cool!" and take it.

All of heroic can comfortably be cleared with sub optimal talents and gear on every player in there, and mythic is only a TINY percentage of the playerbase.

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so if i choose to ignore every post you make in this thread, i am in some way controlling you? A bold claim, for sure.

You read into it. You are controlling your interaction with someone. Not that you are controlling the other person.

[arkanon]

You read into it. You are controlling your interaction with someone. Not that you are controlling the other person.

Im not reading into it, to control is to exert influence over someones behavior, and this really doesn't qualify. Its certainly a method of mitigating the impact that individual can have on you, but it isnt a control.

[Spiffums]

I'm not sure I agree. Even without a damage meter, I can still see the holes in my rotation, and the mistakes I make in fights. Like I said, I'm very much into squeezing as much out of my personal performance as possible. Still, I see your point.

I'm not sure your second point holds water, though. The lack of a supported damage meter clearly works, because FF has a strong community which is way more helpful and tolerant of mediocrity than WoW's community.

Because they ban people who point out your shortcomings. Of course if WOW had that it would kill the pug scene.

[Very Tired]

Weird that people are framing FF14 as less toxic just because they don't have a damage meter. DPS is just one subject of toxicity. If they can't have that, they'll just find something else in to vent their hate.

Example: I'm a new player to that game so I'm looking up a bunch of different stuff on FF14's reddit page and quite literally every single one of them is at 0 points after being downvoted to hell. WoW's Reddit has never had that problem with me, not even Runescape's. Honestly, just from that, it looks like FF14 has one of the most toxic communities ever.

[Jastall]

It's arguable that it was worse back in the day because "gamer words" were, uh, much more common back then. (And less severely punished, to boot.)

Indeed, that was the time where the community was so much "better" that we pushed CMs to resign with our bullshit.

Anyone else remembers Tseric? I 'member.

[T-34]

ANd you know that how? Basically you are confirming what I said. Anyone who doesn't play like you is bad and doesn't try. You acting like playing a game is a job doesn't mean the others are bad or are not trying because they use the game for its intended purpose to have fun.

No, you abuse them to feel superior to everyone else and to force everyone to conform to how you play the game. IF the bosses are going down with no issue, those meters are irrelevant.

Players from group 2 are exactly what I say they are.

As I have said several times here. I don't like to play with Little Timmys that plays "just to have fun" which is Little Timmy-speak for "I am bad at the game".
I have also said several times that it would be rude and a waste of my time to point out to Little Timmy that he sucks, because Little Timmy is unable and unwilling to accept it.

Another Little Timmy-trick he uses to try to shame and guilt-trip competent players in to carry him along is your "If the bosses go down the meters are irrelevant".

Again, please remember, I don't want to "lord over the unwashed masses", I don't want anything to do "with the unwashed masses". Why on earth would I be responsible for a Kingdom full of idiots? I just want to get as far as possible away from the idiots.

And could you please link me where Blizzard's tells us how we are supposed to have fun in the game?
If you can do that then I promise to carry 10 lfr N'zoth-fights next lockout.

Please show the good players in the game the same courtesy that we show you: Don't try to play with us. Enjoy your wipes together with the rest of the Timmys.

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Adding a reward for people who don't leave will lead to players afking if they think it will ruin their rio. It's more efficient that way. In your system you don't get punished for being kicked so it's more efficient to start attacking others. It makes no sense for someone who is toxic to bite their tongue or to complete the run. It makes more sense to increase toxicity. Why waste unknown time when you can waste completetime? Why waste completetime when you can just get kicked for no consequences? Banhammer is the only way to go. If you are toxic then you are excluded. If the toxic people are excluded then they can't be toxic

We have tough guy here!
Let me again quote something from Blizzard's policy:

"Groups are empowered to manage their own members through the vote-kick system. If the majority of the group feels a player should be removed, they can initiate a vote-kick to remove them. The system is entirely under the control of our players. Players may choose to remove any other player from the group for any reason, provided the vote to kick passes."

https://us.battle.net/support/en/article/52363

Hmm, what does Blizzard write: "Players may choose to remove any player from the group for ANY REASON..."

If the majority kicks Little Timmy because he is bad at the game then Blizzard thinks their actions are OK
If the majority kicks Tryhard Tom because he like to link dps-meters then Blizzard thinks that is OK.
If the majority kicks Oscar the Orc because he isn't a furry like the other Vuleperas then Blizzard thinks that is OK.

Blizzard does not want to get involved in what is "toxic" and what isn't.
Blizzard has never thrown out the "Banhammer" for what you and the majority in this thread consider "toxic".

I can only give you a recommendation based on my own experience:
The moment I found out that doing your best to be good in this game was fun I started to be surrounded by nicer people.
And the better I became the more pleasant my in-game experience became.

[Logwyn]

Im not reading into it, to control is to exert influence over someones behavior, and this really doesn't qualify. Its certainly a method of mitigating the impact that individual can have on you, but it isnt a control.

You are controlling YOUR exposure to something. Hence if the community as a whole ignores or mutes the person really has who to be toxic too? No one. Therefore the community has controlled the person's behavior by putting them in a box where they can talk to themselves.

I'm sorry if you can't grasp the concept that removing yourself is controlling the situation. And if the person can not act you are controlling their behavior as you are no longer there to act towards you.

I just blocked you. What did you do next?

[potis]

As I have said several times here. I don't like to play with Little Timmys that plays "just to have fun" which is Little Timmy-speak for "I am bad at the game".
I have also said several times that it would be rude and a waste of my time to point out to Little Timmy that he sucks, because Little Timmy is unable and unwilling to accept it.

Another Little Timmy-trick he uses to try to shame and guilt-trip competent players in to carry him along is your "If the bosses go down the meters are irrelevant".

Again, please remember, I don't want to "lord over the unwashed masses", I don't want anything to do "with the unwashed masses". Why on earth would I be responsible for a Kingdom full of idiots? I just want to get as far as possible away from the idiots.

And could you please link me where Blizzard's tells us how we are supposed to have fun in the game?
If you can do that then I promise to carry 10 lfr N'zoth-fights next lockout.

Please show the good players in the game the same courtesy that we show you: Don't try to play with us. Enjoy your wipes together with the rest of the Timmys.

Its little Billy.

There is no point trying to explain with examples, they dont understand they are even worst than little billy, i reverted to a better method "Unless you have 3 kids and make six figures salary you arent allowed to be bad at pixels", gets the koi fish reaction every time.

[Echocho]

Weird that people are framing FF14 as less toxic just because they don't have a damage meter. DPS is just one subject of toxicity. If they can't have that, they'll just find something else in to vent their hate.

Example: I'm a new player to that game so I'm looking up a bunch of different stuff on FF14's reddit page and quite literally every single one of them is at 0 points after being downvoted to hell. WoW's Reddit has never had that problem with me, not even Runescape's. Honestly, just from that, it looks like FF14 has one of the most toxic communities ever.

There are a lot of factors that contribute to FFXIV being less toxic, lack of damage meters is one of them.
The overall aesthetic of the game is another. Players that are a combination of competitive and toxic also need a certain environment in order to feel like a badass, a "weeb game" with cat girls isn't exactly that setting. For example I'd bet that the ratio of girls that play FFXIV is higher than Doom for example, simply because of how the games look.
Another factor is that the PvP and the PvP scene isn't much to write home about and there are no factions. It doesn't attract toxic/competitive players because of it.
The combat is also perceived to be too slow. It's the same effect as the aesthetics really, toxic/competitive players need some sort of adrenaline inducing combat and FFXIV doesn't have that. It can be hectic as hell but it's more like a complex dance routine where the competitive players need something more akin to a mosh pit.

It's not really a case of toxic players behaving better in FFXIV, it's that the game doesn't appeal to players like that in the first place.

[Azharok]

That's where you are wrong. The average player might clear normal. They come nowhere close to Mythic raiding. This is the sort of toxicity that wow doesn't need. Raiding mythic means you are top tier. Stop with the bullshit.

30% of the playerbase has killed Nzoth in Heroic (not CLEARED the raid, just killed Nzoth). I know it proves nothing else than people being present for the kill. How am I toxic ? Saying Normal and heroic raiding isn't hard ? It isn't, it really isn't. Does it take time to clear, sure, do I look down at guilds stuck on progress in normal or HC no..

Everyone is toxic to someone else, I get made fun off because doing M20 is EASY to the folks doing 23-24s, and yet I struggle to clear 20-21s.

Edit : Checked on Wowhead for overall raid progress this is ANY difficulty.

48% of players have cleared first wing of Nyalotha, so Wrathion Maut Skittra
39% have killed Xanesh, Vex, Hivemind, Raden
38% have killed Drest, Shad, Ilgy
39% have killed Cara+Nzoth

12% of the playerbase has killed Wrathion Maut & Skittra on Mythic difficulty, this isn't exactly top-tier. Cara + Nzoth is top tier with 3% and 2% respectively.

40% of players have Keystone Conqueror (all 10s)
28% of players have Keystone Master (all 15s)

Again, if nearly a THIRD of the playerbase can complete the content, it's not hard. The other 2/3rd that did not complete the content either don't want to or are working on it and that is perfectly fine.

[T-34]

There are a lot of factors that contribute to FFXIV being less toxic, lack of damage meters is one of them.
The overall aesthetic of the game is another. Players that are a combination of competitive and toxic also need a certain environment in order to feel like a badass, a "weeb game" with cat girls isn't exactly that setting. For example I'd bet that the ratio of girls that play FFXIV is higher than Doom for example, simply because of how the games look.
Another factor is that the PvP and the PvP scene isn't much to write home about and there are no factions. It doesn't attract toxic/competitive players because of it.
The combat is also perceived to be too slow. It's the same effect as the aesthetics really, toxic/competitive players need some sort of adrenaline inducing combat and FFXIV doesn't have that. It can be hectic as hell but it's more like a complex dance routine where the competitive players need something more akin to a mosh pit.

It's not really a case of toxic players behaving better in FFXIV, it's that the game doesn't appeal to players like that in the first place.

Thank you for a post comparing wow to FFXIV. Interesting. A lot of posters in this thread say FFXIV is less "toxic" than WoW. Now I have an idea why they think so.
And now I can see why FFXIV would never be a game for me. A game with enforced mediocrity and with few competitive elements seems horrible from my point of view.
If your comparison is accurate then WoW is more of a "masculine" game and FFXIV is more of a "feminine" game.

But it does make me wonder why certain people keep playing WoW when they prefer the "safe-space"-style of FFXIV.

[Azharok]

To remove toxic behaviour, I believe you need to neuter the game in a few ways. I'll ignore pvp entirely.

- Lower the overall difficulty, and remove damage meters. I think that the harder content is, the less people are willing to put up with those around them being subpar, so let's say remove mythic, nerf heroic a bit and cap mythic+ at 10.

The game is "easy" enough as it is. Further lowering the difficulty isn't going to reduce toxicity, if anything it'll increase it because "more players" will be able to partake in "high end play". You do realise that people raiding mythic legit do not care for normal mode, nor do they look down on people doing normal or HC.

- Take down sites like r.io / wowlogs, remove the ability to see other players achievements/boss kills and remove the ilvl counter. We use these tools to create sub communities, small clubs of people we deem "good enough to play with", and anyone below that is clearly not even trying, or beyond awful. It is nothing but tools for exclusion, which no matter how rightfully it is used leaves a bad imprint on worse players.

This only allows people to apply some sort of filter to applicants for content they are trying to complete. To complete a M10 you need people to be at least XYZ ilvl because there is a minimum throughput required that is not achievable if your gear is under a certain threshold.

- Remove timed content, and mythic+ fail states. Timed content leads to the idea that big burst, and high tempo is king. Taking a wrong route is not allowed, asking about tactics before a boss is also a no-go, you've got to know everything about the dungeon before you start, and if you make a mistake, you've wasted MY time, therefore i am now furious.

Once you enter the M+ realm and are doing M10-12-15s by that time you SHOULD know boss mechanics and what stuff does. You are allowed to learn strats in M0 like everyone else. Once content becomes timed you should know what to do.

- Could add a few more things, like raid mechanics that single players out, such as... say football boss, plenty of reason to hate eachother there. Instead of it being a group wide fail, you learn to hate specific people, and you learn to never sign up to do tasks unless being forced to, in the fear that this hate gets directed at you. Or mythic+ affixes where one dumb person can ruin your run in seconds, like bolstering or bursting.

Raid are originally designed to be completed by pre-made groups, the ability to pug them does not invalidate this. If you fail mechanics repeatdly, maybe it would be wise to let someone else do it or refrain in participating in content you do not have the ability to complete.

Let's say they did these things, I believe the game is now so neutered that you no longer need to exclude other players. Doing your weekly key? Pick whoever, its easy anyways. Wanna raid? No problem, its easy anyways. You playing a meme spec? No damage meter, no one even knows you're bad! yourself included.

You've now created an environnement where is everyone is equal in mediocrity and where "being bad at the game" is still possible and would be even more frowned upon because content has become so laughably easy.

Not to say I'm advocating for this, at all. If anything im pointing out that we cant get rid of what people have deemed to be toxic without dismantling the game at its core. From a less "overall toxicity" perspective, it's probably best to create or join a casual community that doesn't allow for the types of toxic behaviour you dont want to be a part of. My server for instance has a reddit guild that does weekly book clubs and hide and seek challenges. I'm guessing there's not much toxic behaviour going on in there.
But who knows, maybe there's a book clique that looks down on the lesser readers.

Added stuff in red

[Zephire]

I have to say that I've experienced very little toxicity in wow or any other game for that matter. This is because most people are not toxic. Most people don't argue, bully or type in chat that much. You don't notice those who are not toxic.

If you do a m+ and one person rant about the group then leave one often percive that as toxic. Sure that person might've been toxic but you have 4 other people who are not. Thats 80% non-toxicity.

When you read a forum those who want to type something does it and in many cases those are either prising or hating on the content. That's the vocal minority. Most people don't interact with it in that way, they watch/read it and thing "Cool", "Silly", "...", "Whatever" etc and just move on to something else.

TL;DR: point being, switch focus. See those who are not toxic and you'll notice it's not that bad. And ofc, be helpful and humble and non-toxic yourself. Be the positive force.

(I'm using "you" in a general sense)