Should the game be ruined in pursuit of utopian competitive equality?

[Azharok]

I do, more or less.

And it absolutely amplifies the problem of people being excluded, because it adds another factor to exclude based on.

I mean if you reroll FOTM just regrind to switch covenants ... Since you're willing to.

Besides the pug scene always excluded people on the dumbest things already, when once you get invited, no one checks your talents / essences / traits / enchants. Like they see a DH or a BM and insta invite, only to find out that he does dogshit dps because wrong optimisation. When instead they could have invited an "off meta" spec that probably puts more effort into their toons since their work harder for the spot.

[Geckoo]

Not really, here is what is going to happen:
For vast majority of players doing 15-20 keys any covenant will do as long as you have RIO score.
Heroic raids will only require curve to join and high ilvl.
Mythic raids are not x-realm so groups aren't feasable.
People wanting to push super high keys they will swap covenants when push week is out.

Oh let me tell you that i agree, i think the impact locked covenants will have in terms of what people ask from others to join their group won't be as big as some people claim, but it's a point we can also make considering azerite traits, essences, talents... I still haven't seen a group asking for specific essences to join and is a free swappable system. I haven't feel forced to use certain essences to be able to join groups, i didn't need daddy blizzard to lock my essences with a week cooldown to stick to my choices or to avoid getting asked to change them, or more importantly, for the system to be fun to use.

Of course, what really happens is that there is a better way to gauge the unkown player that wants to join your group. If you have a high raider.io, curve, high ilvl... all those are indicators that you are in fact someone that can potentially pull their weight.

So if we agree that all those layers of systems for the most part won't play a role in terms of getting rejected or not, then not having them locked would not be a problem either. But even if it was, then, funny enough, it will be a direct consequence of the player choice and since that's exactly what those who want locked covenants defend, then it shouldn't be a problem for them.

Personally, i don't want covenants to be swappable because i do like the idea of commiting to one faction with a strong theme, but power related stuff from other covenants should, at least, be unlockable over time.

[Azharok]

Actually, do. Especially if covenant abilities will turns out very badly balanced.

We have bigger issues than covenants abilities tbh, like legendaries, class reworks, aoe caps.

Covenants is litteraly on the bottom of my list as far as balancing goes.

[Tradu]

I mean if you reroll FOTM just regrind to switch covenants ... Since you're willing to.

Besides the pug scene always excluded people on the dumbest things already, when once you get invited, no one checks your talents / essences / traits / enchants. Like they see a DH or a BM and insta invite, only to find out that he does dogshit dps because wrong optimisation. When instead they could have invited an "off meta" spec that probably puts more effort into their toons since their work harder for the spot.

The thing is, I'd rather... not have to? It just adds more of a burden and continues the trend of maintaining a competitive alt being easier than maintaining a competitive offspec.

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We have bigger issues than covenants abilities tbh, like legendaries, class reworks, aoe caps.

Covenants is litteraly on the bottom of my list as far as balancing goes.

Covenants are literally the core of Shadowlands as an expansion. Them being poorly designed us a huge problem. Would be great if they'd fix the other stuff you mentioned as well, though.

[Azharok]

The thing is, I'd rather... not have to? It just adds more of a burden and continues the trend of maintaining a competitive alt being easier than maintaining a competitive offspec.

And I'd rather people took responsibility for their choices but here we are. I doubt the proportion of players that truly maintain 2 or more specs within the same lvl of performance is that high. Or at least high enough that making covs swappable is required so they don't lose sleep over it with all the grind they all have to do 1% (arbitrary) more damage than their fellow scrub who didn't min/max.

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Covenants are literally the core of Shadowlands as an expansion. Them being poorly designed us a huge problem. Would be great if they'd fix the other stuff you mentioned as well, though.

Yes they are, but it's also ONE extra button. (or are we including soulbinds too ?)

[Tradu]

And I'd rather people took responsibility for their choices but here we are. I doubt the proportion of players that truly maintain 2 or more specs within the same lvl of performance is that high. Or at least high enough that making covs swappable is required so they don't lose sleep over it with all the grind they all have to do 1% (arbitrary) more damage than their fellow scrub who didn't min/max.

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Yes they are, but it's also ONE extra button. (or are we including soulbinds too ?)

Keeping spec swapping as restrictive as they have since Legion kinda ruins any chance for more people to learn how to multispec.

Yes, Soulbinds, Covenant class abilities, Covenant signature abilities, Covenant dungeon garbage and a couple of conduits.

[Azharok]

Keeping spec swapping as restrictive as they have since Legion kinda ruins any chance for more people to learn how to multispec.

Yes, Soulbinds, Covenant class abilities, Covenant signature abilities, Covenant dungeon garbage and a couple of conduits.

So "everyone" just wants to have their cake and eat it too huh ?

I don't agree with this at all.

How then would you decide who gets to gimp himself when running a dungeon for which the required covenant is not optimal for anyone in the group (however unlikely that is).

Also you had the whole of BFA to multispec, stop it already .... Not everyone that plays WoW played since Vanilla.

[Sezh]

It's not even that they aren't at risk of getting fucked over by Covenants, they're just in denial about it. This isn't a "1%" thing, this will trickle down and affect everybody who does group content.

It depends. But I was comparing people who pick covenants for say transmog or lore reasons to people who pick for performance. Performance of the covenants will change, nerfs, buffs, character progression etc. The transmogs and the lore will not change, so your first pick will always be correct for people who only care about those things.

[Eapoe]

And I'd rather people took responsibility for their choices but here we are. I doubt the proportion of players that truly maintain 2 or more specs within the same lvl of performance is that high. Or at least high enough that making covs swappable is required so they don't lose sleep over it with all the grind they all have to do 1% (arbitrary) more damage than their fellow scrub who didn't min/max.

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Yes they are, but it's also ONE extra button. (or are we including soulbinds too ?)

This 1% discrepancy you ass pulled is getting old. You have no idea how big of a difference Covenant A vs Covenant B will be in raids, then converted to m+, then converted to PvP. This also ignores the difference from boss to boss.
Not all covenants work the same for each spec, with 1 being good for 1 spec but not for the other. There’s also examples of players swapping specs from boss to boss. 1 of the biggest examples of that is a dps going heals or vice versa as needed. What about players that like to dps in raid but like to heal or tank m+ or PvP?
Also, you have yet again defeated yourself in your own argument. If there is only a 1% arbitrary difference between the players with multiple specs and the others then how does it concern you to allow the people you are against to have Covenants be swappable? Bottom line: it doesn’t, but you’re just going to cover your ears and go “nahnahnahnahnahnah” because that goes against your train of thought.
Of course people are going to include the soulbinds in the Covenant topic as they are part of the damage/healing/mitigation that is provided by it.
I’m sure you’ll just ignore this post too, but I’m just going to keep replying from time to time because it’s fun for me to point out how wrong you are.

[Azharok]

This 1% discrepancy you ass pulled is getting old. You have no idea how big of a difference Covenant A vs Covenant B will be in raids, then converted to m+, then converted to PvP. This also ignores the difference from boss to boss.
Not all covenants work the same for each spec, with 1 being good for 1 spec but not for the other. There’s also examples of players swapping specs from boss to boss. 1 of the biggest examples of that is a dps going heals or vice versa as needed. What about players that like to dps in raid but like to heal or tank m+ or PvP?
Also, you have yet again defeated yourself in your own argument. If there is only a 1% arbitrary difference between the players with multiple specs and the others then how does it concern you to allow the people you are against to have Covenants be swappable? Bottom line: it doesn’t, but you’re just going to cover your ears and go “nahnahnahnahnahnah” because that goes against your train of thought.
Of course people are going to include the soulbinds in the Covenant topic as they are part of the damage/healing/mitigation that is provided by it.
I’m sure you’ll just ignore this post too, but I’m just going to keep replying from time to time because it’s fun for me to point out how wrong you are.

NO ONE has a bloody idea on the discrepancy, but the "make covenants swappable" crowd is the one loosing their shit over this.

I never ONCE denied the existence of players that multispec, I would assume they are minority.

I have not defeated myself, you also choose to ignore the argument, IF they are swappable, you WILL have to swap them or face rejection in the pug scene.

I still don't see how I am wrong.

Will the wrong covenant prevent you from timing 20s ? Doubt it. By extension that wont prevent you from clearing all lower keys.

Will it prevent you from clearing the Mythic raid ? Also doubt it. By extension that wont prevent you from clearing lower difficulties.

Will it make it harder for you to participate in a pug environement ? Most certainly but it just another criteria to filter with.

If you guys really cared about balance you should all harass blizzard and ask them to fix chamans, and warlocks and all under represented specs, Ask em to fix MW too because it's damage on live sucks.

[crusadernero]

I like the idea of covenants and i'll probably be fine with it, if its locked choice or not. That said, im probably not the "target audience" of how this thread debate regards.

I'll do my leveling, see all story, do dungeons/raids but wont push high m+ keys. For me, the dungeon scene was ruined with m+. If its better for the game overall to have m+, im fine with that(in case someone wanted to scream at me). I just choose not to give a shit about dungeons alot, even though it was a hard choice cause it was a core feature and activity over the years.

Point is - for me, and probably many others(?), there really is no need to min/max in order to see most(all) content. Yeah I will probably miss out on high m+ keys and mythic raids, but for the rest? Nah, it will be fine.

The gaming community today seems obsessed with being min/maxed on everything, even though you can manage just fine in many activites without being obsessed by it.

I sort of get why people want it to be swappable though. Imagine picking a covenant early in xpac cause its the strongest and 5 months down the road its the worst, just like how balancing often times work.

Besides, we already get to swap talents & spec(s) when we want. Alot of gear also just swap stats when switching spec. We are also supposed to to all questlines in every zone and really help each covenant, so its weird not being able to have features from them

[kaminaris]

There's a lot of different reasons to be interested in the ability. To me what matters is how it plays and the power level/usefulness. Others might care about the visuals or the "story" of the ability, or some other part of the Covenant.

And you should be as effective at tanking/healing as your skill permits, not be numerically weaker because you "main" DPS.

This isn't moba with loadouts. No you should not be efficient on offspecs as your main. Gear/talents/class is there to stop it.

[Echocho]

If there's one crowd that shouldn't be catered to it's puggers. There's a reason why people have been saying "join a guild" for over 15 years, very few things in the game should be easily puggable.

Yeah I will probably miss out on high m+ keys and mythic raids

You really won't, not if you join a guild at least and really want to do those things. The lowest performing specs have been brought to high keys and mythic raids for all of BfA in guilds that doesn't consist exclusively of assholes.

[Azharok]

If there's one crowd that shouldn't be catered to it's puggers. There's a reason why people have been saying "join a guild" for over 15 years, very few things in the game should be easily puggable.

This whole thread is just pure non-sense anyway. The only reason people want swappable covenants is that their ego is so fragile that they need to be top DPS/HPS/DTPS whatever to feel good about themselves, While it is most likely a large amount of them haven't even seen the inside of 20 key, or a mythic raid, where thses things "might" become somewhat revelant.

[kaminaris]

So now, we are playing a spec and not a class (which is going against Blizzard's phylosophy which is playing a class, not a spec). Maybe you should tell them they are not going the right path then.

And you do not want people to try other things and pigeonhole them in one and unique role ?

Stop, you are projecting "blizzard philosophy". Which is bullshit btw because all they said was: "we went to far on making specs too unique", so they brought couple of spells as baseline. Which has nothing to do with your role.

So they are right on track.

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no just the ability not the covenant.

Even a single speck of dust in their covenant hall. If that speck of dust is enough for you to wonder which covenant to chose, then you are interested in them.

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Azerite might be customisable, but there is a few select options that are truly worthwhile, the rest are complete trash in comparison. That's a design failure on Blizz's part. You're not actually using the non BiS traits EVER. This isn't a 1-2% performance difference. The gap is huge.

For most class it really is 1-2%. Sorry to burst your bubble but check how diverse are azerite traits on warcraft logs on mythic nzoth for all classes.
There are couple outliners like mages fire or arms warrior but for other classes is really close.

The rest of the post is pretty much correct.

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That not grade the problem. Even with (semi)permanent choice (like class/spec) you can be kicked out from (or not invited to) the group.

So making it permanent do not fix anything.

No its not, nobody gives a flying fuck about your corruptions, azerite traits and essences.

And i can bet a fucking truck of whiskey if I cleanse my whole gear, equip shittiest possible essences and reforge to the worst possible azerite traits people will still invite me to +15-20. Simply because i have relatively high rio score.

And by the way, I actually checked how much would that be in raw dps loss:
27% for corruptions
6% for essences
12% for azerite traits

a whopping 45% of dps loss.

[Azharok]

For most class it really is 1-2%. Sorry to burst your bubble but check how diverse are azerite traits on warcraft logs on mythic nzoth for all classes.
There are couple outliners like mages fire or arms warrior but for other classes is really close.

Idk man I'd be gimping myself pretty hard by not using the correct traits. Losing 20k dps on a 90k sim doesn't look like 1% to me (those are the absolute worst traits to pick admittedly). But %dps difference is pretty high from BiS traits to non BiS.

[Tradu]

So "everyone" just wants to have their cake and eat it too huh ?

I don't agree with this at all.

How then would you decide who gets to gimp himself when running a dungeon for which the required covenant is not optimal for anyone in the group (however unlikely that is).

Also you had the whole of BFA to multispec, stop it already .... Not everyone that plays WoW played since Vanilla.

Whoever loses the least for using that Covenant. That's an interesting, meaningful choice you as a group can make if given that freedom.

And BfA severely limited multispeccing thanks primarily to azerite and corruption, as well as essences to done extent. SL looks to also restrict doing multiple types of content even as the same spec on top of that.

[Specialka]

Stop, you are projecting "blizzard philosophy". Which is bullshit btw because all they said was: "we went to far on making specs too unique", so they brought couple of spells as baseline. Which has nothing to do with your role.

So they are right on track.

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Even a single speck of dust in their covenant hall. If that speck of dust is enough for you to wonder which covenant to chose, then you are interested in them.

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For most class it really is 1-2%. Sorry to burst your bubble but check how diverse are azerite traits on warcraft logs on mythic nzoth for all classes.
There are couple outliners like mages fire or arms warrior but for other classes is really close.

The rest of the post is pretty much correct.

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No its not, nobody gives a flying fuck about your corruptions, azerite traits and essences.

And i can bet a fucking truck of whiskey if I cleanse my whole gear, equip shittiest possible essences and reforge to the worst possible azerite traits people will still invite me to +15-20. Simply because i have relatively high rio score.

And by the way, I actually checked how much would that be in raw dps loss:
27% for corruptions
6% for essences
12% for azerite traits

a whopping 45% of dps loss.

Do that and prove us that people will invite you in their group for 15+ and do not kick you once they inspected you xD

And I just checked in MM Nya for some dps class which azerite traits are used, and guess what, it is mostly the same, some traits are simply not used at all because they can't compete with the best azerite traits available.

[Tradu]

This isn't moba with loadouts. No you should not be efficient on offspecs as your main. Gear/talents/class is there to stop it.

You definitely should. The period where this was the easiest was the best set of expansions, because your skill as a player was the big differentiator between your main and offspecs, not arbitrary restrictions that hurt the game by making fewer tanks/healers available.

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Stop, you are projecting "blizzard philosophy". Which is bullshit btw because all they said was: "we went to far on making specs too unique", so they brought couple of spells as baseline. Which has nothing to do with your role.

So they are right on track.

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Even a single speck of dust in their covenant hall. If that speck of dust is enough for you to wonder which covenant to chose, then you are interested in them.

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For most class it really is 1-2%. Sorry to burst your bubble but check how diverse are azerite traits on warcraft logs on mythic nzoth for all classes.
There are couple outliners like mages fire or arms warrior but for other classes is really close.

The rest of the post is pretty much correct.

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No its not, nobody gives a flying fuck about your corruptions, azerite traits and essences.

And i can bet a fucking truck of whiskey if I cleanse my whole gear, equip shittiest possible essences and reforge to the worst possible azerite traits people will still invite me to +15-20. Simply because i have relatively high rio score.

And by the way, I actually checked how much would that be in raw dps loss:
27% for corruptions
6% for essences
12% for azerite traits

a whopping 45% of dps loss.

It's not, and it won't be when they're done with tuning either.

And you'd get flamed for your garbage performance and for disrespecting the time of the other people in the group if you cleansed your gear etc hopefully.

Azerite is also definitely not varied and balanced, there's a reason they gave up and just put the best ones on Ny'alotha gear(for the most part)

[Echocho]

You definitely should. The period where this was the easiest was the best set of expansions, because your skill as a player was the big differentiator between your main and offspecs, not arbitrary restrictions that hurt the game by making fewer tanks/healers available.

The game shouldn't be only about skill, it never has been. Sure going back to the WoW Classic model where you don't need any skill at all is probably a bit silly but there should be a healthy mix of player skill and character.