Simple solution to cat-weave dps in shadowlands.

[spalernTJ]

How would you handle M+ scaling then? Mobs can't be stunned anymore? Consistent unavoidable damage all of the time?

Go back to early cataclysm levels of healing / damage


Maybe not. I don't know what to do about it exactly, I am not a game developer. But as things are right now, the game leans so heavily towards everything just being about DPS, and the role of healing (And from what I've seen, the role of tank) just isn't being treated as their respective roles anymore. Everything is about how much damage everyone can do, and I don't think it's fair for the healers that want to have their healing challenged, and tanks that wants their tankiness challenged.

[Gestopft]

Go back to early cataclysm levels of healing / damage

That doesn't really address the question of scaling though.

[razorpax]

Aye, definitely the right mindset to have. Kudos to you for playing your role properly.

I blame my guilds old pally healer

He rage quit often enough that I had to learn how to heal and let me tell you..... I never noticed how little constant damage went out in some fights

[Tiberria]

So, saying healers should not be expected to do DPS and use their full toolkit/GCD capacity is kind of ridiculous with the current game design. It's like saying that DPS are just DPS, so they shouldn't be expected to CC/interrupt/stun as needed or use their personal CDs or hybrid heals, etc. It's like saying tanks are only responsible for tanking, so as long as they are holding aggro, they shouldn't care about their DPS output or using their mitigation effectively to reduce risk of dying/let healers DPS more, etc. The argument is ridiculous.

That said, I do think that BfA game design probably puts way too much emphasis on healer DPS (definitely in M+ and arguably in raids too), and not enough emphasis in giving healers more GCDs of healing to actually do, even in the highest end of content. One of the ways you can force healer DPS variance across specs to be less meaningful is to make it so that more GCDs actually need to be spent healing to be able to keep people alive, especially in mythic raids and say 20+ keys, etc. If the healing requirement is so high that you can't afford to spend 50%+ of your GCDs on DPS spells, it's not going to matter as much if one healer has higher DPS than another. I also think it would make people that complain about healers having to DPS too much happier if you actually made their role require more actual healing. They did a really bad job of balancing this in the last 2 expansions - just make things a little more healing intensive.

The problem with Resto Druid DPS is - it's only really AOE DPS that's an issue - Sunfire and Thrash are way too strong, which makes RDruid DPS too high in keys. They probably should look at those abilities, and/or just not give one or both of them to Resto. You don't really want to nerf Resto single target DPS, because it really isn't any higher than that of other healing specs - it's actually probably actually one of the lower single target DPS healing specs - especially if you can't run Feral affinity/be in melee (a real issue on raid fights where you only have so much melee space, especially because you don't have melee mechanic immunity like Paladins/MW do.)

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Go back to early cataclysm levels of healing / damage


Maybe not. I don't know what to do about it exactly, I am not a game developer. But as things are right now, the game leans so heavily towards everything just being about DPS, and the role of healing (And from what I've seen, the role of tank) just isn't being treated as their respective roles anymore. Everything is about how much damage everyone can do, and I don't think it's fair for the healers that want to have their healing challenged, and tanks that wants their tankiness challenged.

Yeah, I think it's just a failure of the game design in general of the last 2-3 expansions, where the role of tanks and healers have really been diminished. Tank survivability should matter more (when tanks even on top Mythic progress are stacking DPS corruptions - you know it doesn't matter enough right now), and healer throughput should matter more than it does now too. It's just lazy game design, where the developers don't care enough about engaging anything other than DPS at this point it seems. I think it probably might have to do with their failure to balance healer and tank specs, but the game is just less engaging because of it.

[RapBreon]

Players expecting too much from each other hurts the game more in the long run, that has been proven time and time again. Like I said if it is agreed upon it is fine, but if you are randomly joining or queuing for content and people assume you need to go above and beyond as a healer it is just being rude.

I'm actually OK with this argument, I just don't understand why you'd justify it as anymore than 'ceebs'. Considering the nature of this game and most of the content (everything but high M+, Mythic and Arena) I think that's perfectly acceptable. I don't expect much, but I will judge you according to your performance (i.e. what I see).

Just say 'ceebs putting in the work' next time.

[Belloc]

What if I, a traditional healer, want options to contribute to a high mythic plus, that doesn't involve me having to spam smite? I mean, why not just run 4 DPS with off-healing and run that instead?

Some healers want to heal - Even on higher levels - And not be forced into DPSing (Hint; that's why we play healers.)

And you are perfectly welcome to do just that. Nothing is stopping you from finishing high key levels with that setup. You can have a perfectly fulfilling experience... just not at the same level as competitive players.

If you want to experience the highest levels of content, you have to play at the highest level. That means maximizing DPS. I know you want to heal, but that doesn't mean that players that are capable of doing both shouldn't be allowed to do so. Changing this punishes top-end players just because low/mid-end players can't or don't want to put in the extra work. You can't lower the ceiling just because you aren't tall enough to reach it.

Lesser skilled/motivated players will never and should never be able to reach the heights that extremely skilled and motivated players are capable of. Know your limits and don't let your reach exceed your grasp.

[Shalaator]

D Every global cooldown should be used for something. If no healing is necessary then you should be using dps skills.

Wrong.

If no healing is necessary it's because the content is undertuned (even a scaling Mythic + key), or dps/tanks have too much self healing and defensives.

[Wuusah]

Wrong.

If no healing is necessary it's because the content is undertuned (even a scaling Mythic + key), or dps/tanks have too much self healing and defensives.

You will always have downtime in healing unless damage comes in like a machine gun all the time. And you should use dps skills in downtime because if you don’t, then you’re wasting time.

Your “solution“ would not change anything about that downtime. You just make healers waste their time during it because they can’t do anything useful when there is nothing to heal.

A healer should not just heal and do nothing else. This is naive foolishness...

[spalernTJ]

And you are perfectly welcome to do just that. Nothing is stopping you from finishing high key levels with that setup. You can have a perfectly fulfilling experience... just not at the same level as competitive players.

If you want to experience the highest levels of content, you have to play at the highest level. That means maximizing DPS. I know you want to heal, but that doesn't mean that players that are capable of doing both shouldn't be allowed to do so. Changing this punishes top-end players just because low/mid-end players can't or don't want to put in the extra work. You can't lower the ceiling just because you aren't tall enough to reach it.

Lesser skilled/motivated players will never and should never be able to reach the heights that extremely skilled and motivated players are capable of. Know your limits and don't let your reach exceed your grasp.

Your assumption of what I am capable of baffles me. I'm a CE raider, who's done casual 20+ keys as a holy priest (Which, mind you, is mind numbingly boring due to how holy priest plays in dungeons.) I agree, if you don't want to put in the effort, then you shouldn't be doing content that is above your skill level. However that is not what I am talking about. I want to put effort into my healing because I am playing a healer.

I want developers to design content with my established role in mind. Give me stuff to dispel, mind control or CC, give me NPCs I can heal up that'll do damage for me, give me abilities / Spells that interract with my healing to do damage. I'm playing a holy priest, my damage output is not only laughably bad, it is also laughably boring.

[Belloc]

Your assumption of what I am capable of baffles me. I'm a CE raider, who's done casual 20+ keys as a holy priest (Which, mind you, is mind numbingly boring due to how holy priest plays in dungeons.) I agree, if you don't want to put in the effort, then you shouldn't be doing content that is above your skill level. However that is not what I am talking about. I want to put effort into my healing because I am playing a healer.

I want developers to design content with my established role in mind. Give me stuff to dispel, mind control or CC, give me NPCs I can heal up that'll do damage for me, give me abilities / Spells that interract with my healing to do damage. I'm playing a holy priest, my damage output is not only laughably bad, it is also laughably boring.

Yes, I know what you mean when you say that you want to heal. The problem is that I don't like the solution. In order to fix this problem they either need to negate your DPS in mythic+ content, which would be bad design for obvious reasons, or they would have to increase damage and add additional debuffs and healing mechanics. Result: You have no downtime -- no time to rest or recover, even while your group is performing well.

One solution sucks because it takes away player choice and is counter-intuitive to how the game works (if you attack, you should do damage. That choice should not be disregarded and wasted). The other solution sucks because it places an additional, prohibitive burden on what is already one of the hardest roles in the group and adds that burden at all mythic+ levels, not just at the top. The DPS don't want to deal with fights where they are forced to constantly be moving, the tanks don't like to deal with fights with tons of adds covering up ground effects and constantly having to fight their UI to deal with threat drops, and healers don't want to have to chase every single GCD just to keep up with unavoidable mechanics. Those do not make for fun gameplay.

You suggest adding mobs that you could heal to join your cause, but I argue: What about players who don't want to have to keep track of things like this? It's not a standard dungeon mechanic and, just like you don't want to have to do DPS, some healers don't want every fight and trash pull to have a Valithria Dreamwalker or an Avatar of Sethraliss sitting off to the side.

I get that you want to be able to be fully effective without putting out DPS, but the cost isn't worth it: bad game design where you cannot do something that you are literally able to do everywhere else or unfun levels of stress for a role not used to such gameplay.

If they could add healer mechanics to every trash pull and boss fight that would normally have room for healers to DPS, then, sure, add those as optional mechanics that healers like you can take advantage of... but design them so that healers have to choose between those mechanics or DPSing and balance them so that they are even in damage output. Either way, there has to be room for DPS... because that's the most straight-forward way for a group to optimize a healer's time, players are already used to it, and it's fun and fulfilling.

[Shalaator]

why is the purposed solution nerf the successful healers and not buff the unused ones to being viable? Why not have talents and abilities that Hpriest/Rshaman etc can take to deal dmg while they heal?

Because we've asked that since legion. Nothing has happened, nothing will. Easier to implement a flat 99% decrease.

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It's fascinating that there are still people that think that just because you are a healer, you can afk literally the half fight. There isn't incoming dmg for the whole fight duration

Then that's a problem will encounter design. There should inc damage at all times, that only the healer can deal with.

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No thanks. A few buffs here and there or just nerf druids a bit so they can't do everything.
still, you can do 22+ with other classes as well.

I'm one of the very few Hpriests that pugged a 21. Obviously it was my own key and obviously it was Junkyard.

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No, fuck no. If there is one thing I hate these days its being in a M+ group that requires so much healing I CAN'T dps - boring!

Then play a dps.

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A healer that doesn't DPS when there's nothing to heal is not doing their job correctly. The objective of M+ is to beat the timer, & healers not using offensive abilities & tanks not using their DPS CDs are letting the group down.

The content should be designed so that healer dps is not in the balance of the timer, hence a 99% decrease in damage output.

Rather a continuous onslaught of damage, testing the healer's ability to conserve mana and choose the correct sequence for their medium and long CD's.

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Sooooo, what, healers just stand around scratching their balls for 90% of the dungeon?

Again, that would be a problem with encounter design. There should be a continuous onslaught of single target burst damage (on the healer or a dps), sustained single target damage on the tank and sustained aoe damage on the whole party at all times.

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I feel that Windwalker monk DPS and disc priest DPS is a fantastic niche that is left open for players who want that challenge.

Lol. Learn what's going on.

Resto druid takes damage traits/corruption, rolls his hots and does 40-50k dps.

Disc Priest takes damage traits/corruption and the group dies, because those aren't attributed to atonement healing.
Disc Priest takes throughput traits/corruption, the group lives, but he's out dpsed by 150-200% by a resto druid.

So only the resto druid will be taken in this situation. Go look at the board.

[callipygoustp]

Then play a dps.

Hell of a response there. Really hits home!

[Shalaator]

I find myself dpsing simply because I don’t have anything to heal. .

That means the content is undertuned for the healer and there's not enough damage going out.

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Healers being able to contribute meaningful DPS to raids or 5 man is a great addition FF14 does it very well and it adds to the skill cap.

It doens't add to the skill cap. It means the content is so easy, you dont' have to heal much.

There is no skill cap argument if the healer dps isnt' balanced. We're not talking about 5-10% damage imbalance from Hpriest to resto druid, we're talking 400-500%.

Yes, my Hpriest can easily top off a group (why? it shouldn't be that easy!) and spam smite/holy/chastise all day, I still wont even get close to 1/3 the output of a Resto druid.

In fact I could spam smite/fire/chast the entire dungeon and not heal a single thing, and still not do 1/3 the damage of a resto druid who is also rolling a hot blanket.

So what is this skill cap you're talking about?

If healers are bored/afk at 15+, then that means the following:

Content is undertuned.
Incoming Party damage overall is too low.
Dps have too much self healing.
Tank has too much self healing.
Too much avoidable damage.

[Aggrophobic]

I'm one of the very few Hpriests that pugged a 21. Obviously it was my own key and obviously it was Junkyard.

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Sure and your class might need a few buffs or even a remake.
still, what was suggested in the original post does NOT sound like a fun fix for this issue.

Druids and paladins might be too dominant but if you really want to push the game to its limits you'll always have classes that will be better than others.
tanks and DPS are not that balanced either. It's impossible to have a game were every spec works in every part of the game if you also want to them to be somewhat different.

If you want to push keys way past whats really "needed" for rewards then you'll have to get used to rolling the best classes. Go play a paladin.

[Shalaator]

The thing with M+ is that (particularly on trash) the goal is to prevent or avoid damage as much damage as possible, because once you get to a certain level, the damage quickly becomes un-healable if it is actually taken. The result of all the damage being prevented is that healers have more time to DPS, and thus can contribute more into timing the key.

That's a problem with dungeon design.

[Wuusah]

That means the content is undertuned for the healer and there's not enough damage going out.

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It doens't add to the skill cap. It means the content is so easy, you dont' have to heal much.

There is no skill cap argument if the healer dps isnt' balanced. We're not talking about 5-10% damage imbalance from Hpriest to resto druid, we're talking 400-500%.

Needing to press your heal skill every second doesn’t make content difficult...
The most difficult aspect of healing is to keep people alive WHILE doing as much dps as possible. This balancing act of healing and damaging is what is difficult. Healing on its own has never been difficult. Same thing 15 years ago. Back then healing wasn’t difficult. Balancing your healing and your mana was. Healers have always been about doing something else while keeping people alive. It’s just that instead of being idle to reg mana, they replaced it with being active to dps.

A dungeon where you just have to heal nonstop is not a difficult dungeon. It’s a very boring dungeon for experienced healers.

[Shalaator]

Sometimes I tell my teammates a reju is all you need to survive don't die.

Sounds like undertuned content.

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Needing to press your heal skill every second doesn’t make content difficult...
The most difficult aspect of healing is to keep people alive WHILE doing as much dps as possible. This balancing act of healing and damaging is what is difficult. Healing on its own has never been difficult. Same thing 15 years ago. Back then healing wasn’t difficult. Balancing your healing and your mana was. Healers have always been about doing something else while keeping people alive. It’s just that instead of being idle to reg mana, they replaced it with being active to dps.

A dungeon where you just have to heal nonstop is not a difficult dungeon. It’s a very boring dungeon for experienced healers.

Sure, because mana hardly matters in BFA.

There was time when healers had to balance expediency (HP/second) and efficiency (HP/mana), when to mana pot and when to use critical cooldowns to amplify HPS or HPM. But math was too hard for you dolts, so they made healing trivial and put the focus on damage output.

lol

I'm trying to remember when I could stand still and cast smite on Mimiron Firefighter.

[Wuusah]

Sounds like undertuned content.

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Sure, because mana hardly matters in BFA.

There was time when healers had to balance expediency (HP/second) and efficiency (HP/mana), when to mana pot and when to use critical cooldowns to amplify HPS or HPM. But math was too hard for you dolts, so they made healing trivial and put the focus on damage output.

lol

I'm trying to remember when I could stand still and cast smite on Mimiron Firefighter.

It’s not because it was too difficult. IT WAS FUCKING BORING TO STAND AROUND AND DO NOTHING!

[Shalaator]

You will always have downtime in healing unless damage comes in like a machine gun all the time. And you should use dps skills in downtime because if you don’t, then you’re wasting time.

Your “solution“ would not change anything about that downtime. You just mak

It should be coming in like a machine gun at all times.

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It’s not because it was too difficult. IT WAS FUCKING BORING TO STAND AROUND AND DO NOTHING!

You could stand still and do nothing on Uldular hard modes?

Some of the fights felt "mathematically impossible" with continuous healing and often were with only naxx gear.

[Wuusah]

It should be coming in like a machine gun at all times.

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You could stand still and do nothing on Uldular hard modes?

If you did something then your mana reg stopped. You had to move out of danger. You always have to move out of danger. But the old mana system forced you to not do anything with your bars for an extended amount of time so that you could reg mana.

And no, damage should not come in like a machine gun all the time. That would be boring. That would be extremely boring game design for a healer. Go into an epic battleground like Ashran. That's what you want. Just standing in the zerg and doing nothing but heal. Epic BGs are super boring as healer.