Revendreth doesNOT mean a soul is redeemable or did nothing wrong

[formerShandalay]

OP is sure right about that one. In Revendreth your sins are being dragged out into the open, you get punished for it and are forced to confront them. These sins include murdering thousands in pursuit of knowledge, treating others as expendable, documenting suffering without attempting to stop it, producing perfect toxins that desolate entire species (These are the sins Herald Temel proclaims to have been Inquisitor Stelia's sins). Especially 'desolating entire species' doesn't seem like 'doing nothing wrong'. Revendreth is where you go when you did wrong and horrbile things in life and you do get punished for it. And if you are unrepentant even after eons of punishment and make no progress with changing, you get sent to the Maw.

I really think that there is no way a mortal being can actually go to the Maw without going to Revendreth first, because no mortal being is born inherently and exclusively evil. And no mortal by themselves can do things that disrupt the cosmic balance. You always need the help from a higher power for that. Even if you 'desolate entire species' you don't actually upset the cosmic balance enough to seriously endanger it. Which is the only scenario I can see how a soul might get sent to the Maw first, because committing atrocities sure isn't the reason.

[Aucald]

I really think that there is no way a mortal being can actually go to the Maw without going to Revendreth first, because no mortal being is born inherently and exclusively evil. And no mortal by themselves can do things that disrupt the cosmic balance. You always need the help from a higher power for that. Even if you 'desolate entire species' you don't actually upset the cosmic balance enough to seriously endanger it. Which is the only scenario I can see how a soul might get sent to the Maw first, because committing atrocities sure isn't the reason.

The only criteria we currently know of that grants a one-way and immediate trip to the Maw is being a threat to the Warcraft metacosm, specifically a threat to the Shadowlands themselves. This probably has no mortal/immortal distinction, if you could conceivably threaten the metacosm's balance or what the stewards of Oribos refer to as the "Purpose" then you're going to get thrown in the Maw - do not pass Go, do not collect $200. I don't think getting help really applies in terms of judgment, as the very willingness to wield such power to upset the essential balance is reason enough to condemn the soul. Willingly joining the Jailer, for example, is probably tantamount to buying a one-way express pass to the Maw insofar as the Arbiter is concerned.

[THEORACLE64]

Thats what we thought long time ago by filling some blanks in the lore, there are other characters who are undead in different realms such as mograine and kael

I mean, Kael wasn't really that undead? He was only dead-dead after we chopped his head off - he didn't properly die/wasn't undead after Sunwell.

[Unholyground]

Garrosh was salty because he felt abandoned by Thrall who he looked to as a mentor and father figure, then with no one to quell his Orc rage he let the power go to his head.

[formerShandalay]

The only criteria we currently know of that grants a one-way and immediate trip to the Maw is being a threat to the Warcraft metacosm, specifically a threat to the Shadowlands themselves. This probably has no mortal/immortal distinction, if you could conceivably threaten the metacosm's balance or what the stewards of Oribos refer to as the "Purpose" then you're going to get thrown in the Maw - do not pass Go, do not collect $200. I don't think getting help really applies in terms of judgment, as the very willingness to wield such power to upset the essential balance is reason enough to condemn the soul. Willingly joining the Jailer, for example, is probably tantamount to buying a one-way express pass to the Maw insofar as the Arbiter is concerned.

I actually think we will find out that getting 'marked' by the Jailer might make you susceptible to him. And by 'marked' I mean getting struck with power from the Maw itself. Like Uther was, for example, and afterwards he suddenly forgot everything he ever wanted and fought for and only went for revenge. He even joins the Jailer, as far as I understand, in pursuit of his rage against the injustice of the cosmos. That sounds very familiar. Both Arthas and Sylvanas joined the Jailer in order to fight against what was done to them or their people by a some being wielding power from the Maw, when it really was the Jailer that made it happen. A bit like what we (or at least many people) criticized at the beginning of BfA, when the Nightelves that were raised blamed everything on Elune or Tyrande or really anyone but Sylvanas. I think that might be intentional and shows the clouded judgement isn't just present in one person, but it is something that comes with being touched by power from the Maw.
Also, Uther himself joins the forces of the Maw 'willingly', or at least as willingly as we can suppose all the others did it, and he seems to be up for redemption afterwards too, so simply choosing to join a super-power bent on destroying the cosmos can't be the deciding factor either.

[Aucald]

Also, Uther himself joins the forces of the Maw 'willingly', or at least as willingly as we can suppose all the others did it, and he seems to be up for redemption afterwards too, so simply choosing to join a super-power bent on destroying the cosmos can't be the deciding factor either.

From what I've seen of the Bastion Covenant quest-chain, I don't know if I'd say Uther really joins the Maw willingly, or at all - the fact that the Forsworn's leadership is working with the Jailer is actually pointedly kept from Uther, and once it comes to light he seemingly abandons the Forsworn in an attempt to find his own way separate from both them and the Kyrians as a mainstay. Devos unfortunately does seem to fall from grace pretty severely.

[faithbane]

I mean, Kael wasn't really that undead? He was only dead-dead after we chopped his head off - he didn't properly die/wasn't undead after Sunwell.

Since he had a fel spike/crystal poking out of his chest where his heart and lungs should be.. I just assumed he was undead I can't remember if he is classified in-game as undead in magister terrace tho.

[Aucald]

Since he had a fel spike/crystal poking out of his chest where his heart and lungs should be.. I just assumed he was undead I can't remember if he is classified in-game as undead in magister terrace tho.

He was classified as humanoid still in Magister's Terrace, though he definitely looked worse for wear and closed to undead than living I felt as well. I don't think he was undead, though; just on Fel life support via the Fel crystal shoved through his midsection.

[formerShandalay]

From what I've seen of the Bastion Covenant quest-chain, I don't know if I'd say Uther really joins the Maw willingly, or at all - the fact that the Forsworn's leadership is working with the Jailer is actually pointedly kept from Uther, and once it comes to light he seemingly abandons the Forsworn in an attempt to find his own way separate from both them and the Kyrians as a mainstay. Devos unfortunately does seem to fall from grace pretty severely.

Ah, so yes, the goal to destroy the cosmos might still be something actually irredeemable and worthy of the Maw, without going through Revendreth first, even for a mortal with only borrowed power.
In Devos's case I think that might be because from the beginning what drives her is her doubt in the 'Path' itself. Even when she stands before the Archon the only thing she wants to point out is how the 'Path' is flawed, not for them to investigate closer and maybe look for other dangers. She doesn't want to protect the Shadowlands or even Uther's world, she doesn't want to investigate how that Maw-sword got out of the Maw or if maybe there are more souls torn by it, she only wants the 'Path' to be abandoned. She says if he had forgotten, they would never have known, but that is just a lie, because if she had done her duty instead of doubting the Arbiter, she would have noticed his wound and the reason for his 'broken' soul sooner and he'd never have forgotten anyway, because he could not. Her charge was to guide him and to tutor him, help him heal, not to help fan the flames of his rage. Had she done so, maybe the Kyrians and the Shadowlands as a whole could have prevented all that happened after Uther was struck by Frostmourne. Including the danger the Jailer now poses to them.

[Grazrug]

If people think Arthas should be redeemed then so does sylvanas. No I don't game criticism on this. Arthas fans get off my back.

[Wyattbw09]

Why Sylvanas went directly to the Maw the first time around is an open question

To the best of my knowledge, NOBODY goes directly to the Maw (under normal working circumstances) Even if you are deemed to irredeemable for Revendreth you still get to go before the Arbitor to be judged. Sylvanas appearing to go straight to the Maw should not be judged because of she was deemed to be a irredeemable but because something intervened.

[portillos]

Many people have very binary thinking patterns, and that shows once again. Either someone is irredeemable, or a good guy, there's nothing in-between.

Agreed, there are many shades of grey.

[Kalisandra]

Revendreth is where inherently good characters that did bad things go to to get redeemed.
That's honestly what I believe. And that's why we're seeing Kael'thas and Garrosh there. They were genuinely good people before you know what happened.

Garrosh wasn't a good person by the time he went to Northrend in Wrath, if not earlier and it was all downhill from there. And not once did he accept responsibility for shit that went down. No, it was Thrall's fault for not raising him right, it was his subordinates fault for failing, for betraying him when he discarded them. He could not fail, only be failed.

[Wyattbw09]

Revendreth is where inherently good characters that did bad things go to to get redeemed.

I don't think that's the case. I don't think good and bad are useful terms in SL. Souls are useful or have purpose or they are do not. Some souls are so threatening to the order of SL that they go to the maw. Some souls choose to reject finding a place within the order of SL and they choose to go to the maw. However, the NPC's that appear to be within the various Convents seem to reject the idea that good and bad are primary drivers or where you end up in SL.

Revendreth appears to be a lot more like purgatory where a soul is cleansed in order to be properly prepared to enter into its new function. Going to Revendreth is not a function of you being a good person. It's a function of you being a useful person in SL but not yet being ready to do the work required to be that useful person in SL.

[Good ol Stroggylos]

Sylvanas went to the maw cause she died by the frostmourne.
Uther managed to get to the bastion because light interfered.

[Traveler Voltin]

So i am going to throw a slight wrench into things.
The first time Sylvanas died(in WC3) she was sent to a peaceful place.
Her death after ICC she went to the Maw.

i do agree something doesnt feel right on that based on the Uther cinematic.

[formerShandalay]

So i am going to throw a slight wrench into things.
The first time Sylvanas died(in WC3) she was sent to a peaceful place.
Her death after ICC she went to the Maw.

i do agree something doesnt feel right on that based on the Uther cinematic.

Not only that, but in Revendreth we do meet souls that committed genocide in life, and they didn't go to the Maw, but to Revendreth. Sylvanas had not committed such a crime by the end of WotLK. I think she was tricked.
What she did with that and what came afterwards, her deal with the Jailer specifically to destroy the cosmos, that's another thing. But at the end of Wrath she wasn't due for the Maw, unless her utter refusal to be selfless (her interaction with the Val'kyr) is the key here, but I doubt it.
If the afterlife is uncaring enough to judge a soul that has been through what Sylvanas went through only on the basis of finally wanting a break and not further involvement and sends her to eternal suffering only for that, then Sylvanas is right and the afterlife is too effed up to keep existing.

[Arrashi]

So i am going to throw a slight wrench into things.
The first time Sylvanas died(in WC3) she was sent to a peaceful place.
Her death after ICC she went to the Maw.

i do agree something doesnt feel right on that based on the Uther cinematic.

And spent about 0.07 seconds there given that arthas ressurected her immediately.

[Kyphael]

Another outcome that can occur in Revendreth is that a condemned soul can become one of the Venthyr, not found worthy of another afterlife scenario but also not worthy of a one-way trip to the Maw. All the major Venthyr you encounter in Revendreth are former criminals and miscreants, whose "sins" are expunged in the form of a sinstone, and given a new identity and form as Venthyr, using their inside knowledge of their own crimes and reformation to continue the process on new souls who arrive in need of castigation and reform.

So wait, does that mean when one is not found worthy of an afterlife but also not worthy to go to hell, they transform into Venthyr? I thought Venthyr was its own distinct ancient race in Shadowlands. So if a Tauren soul goes to Revendreth and has their sins expunged, but cannot get an afterlife, they transform into a Venthyr (vampire humanoid?)

[Wyattbw09]

So wait, does that mean when one is not found worthy of an afterlife but also not worthy to go to hell, they transform into Venthyr? I thought Venthyr was its own distinct ancient race in Shadowlands. So if a Tauren soul goes to Revendreth and has their sins expunged, but cannot get an afterlife, they transform into a Venthyr (vampire humanoid?)

So forgive me if I'm totally wrong about this I'm about to simply repeat something I heard on the Blizzard Watch Podcast (which assumes I'm repeating what they said back correctly). My understanding is most souls end up going back into the world. They become cleansed in SL and then go back to some sort of physical form again on some world someplace. A few go to the Maw for enteral damnation. Some choose to stay in SL and do the work of a Covenant, but most don't stay in SL for all time. We just get a very asymmetrical view because we meet the souls that have chosen to stay there.