Arthas was bad before he even touched frostmourne...

[Thage]

...and people want a redemption story? Even as a paladin he was portrayed as an arrogant spoiled prince, who treated his subordinates like shit. The Culling of Stratholme was basically im using whatever ends to justify means that would sate his maliciousness.

Sort of. Arthas was notably much more down-to-earth with his subordinates and his people prior to investigating the plague than the rest of the royal family was known for being. He was also very immature even as an adult and. in the novel, displayed a marked fear of responsibility.

His relationship with Jaina was a perfect microcosm of problems that would arise during the investigation where he constantly got himself in over his head, only to immediately shirk his responsibilities as soon as he realized how in over his head he really was, instead seeking out silver-bullet fixes to his problems. Arthas was also shown to be highly egocentric--he either couldn't, or wouldn't, understand why, immediately after having sex, Jaina would be so hurt about his sudden decision to dump her and remain friends when she brought up potentially having a family together, and expected there to be no awkwardness or hurt feelings on her end; if I recall, he indirectly blamed her for his own hurt feelings on the matter once he realized how much he'd hurt her.

He also had a bad habit of wanting to have his cake and eat it. When he rekindled his relationship with Jaina, he wanted it on his own terms and for his own comfort, and again, she was expected to go along with his wants/needs. He never quite got to the point where he had problems with empathy, but there was a marked tendency toward selfishness and a level of cowardice in his psyche, as though his development as a person were permanently arrested when, as a teenager, he had to kill his beloved horse after breaking Invincible's legs during a nasty spill in a snowstorm.

It's these significant character flaws, his egocentrism and arrested development, that shirking of responsibility and fear of the unknown, that caused him to react so poorly to the plague. He was completely out of his element for the first time in his life, and he wasn't in a position interpersonally or by rank where he could simply assume the plague would abide by his wishes until he was ready to grapple with it like he could with his relationship with Jaina or his duties as a prince and paladin. It was Invincible all over again.

That said, he wasn't malicious during the Culling. He was in despair, because he was helpless to help the residents beyond giving them a swift death and preventing them from being risen as mindless slaves. He had a no-win scenario, and he felt like Uther, Jaina, and the Light all betrayed him in that moment. If he left things in Stratholme unaddressed, that city of the dead could spread out and rapidly escalate an already-precarious situation. Remember that this is the same Arthas who swept Jaina off her feet, fucked her, and then immediately shrank back and wanted to just be friends again because she wanted to advance their relationship beyond his timetable, once he realized what sort of responsibility he was about to take on himself. That Arthas had to take responsibility for an entire dead city now, and that broke him after the constant stress of fighting the plague began to fracture his mental state.

In Northrend, he still treated his men well enough. Even broken and half-mad with despair and vengeance, Arthas still cared about the people of Lordaeron and the soldiers fighting under him. Yes, he took on extremely morally-dubious and outright immoral actions like betraying mercenaries who had helped him survive, burning down the only way his men had to get home, and abandoning his men to hold the line while he, Muradin, and a small squad set out for Frostmourne.

But it wasn't until Frostmourne absorbed his soul that he truly became evil and malicious. Until then, he was simply a spoiled kid who was completely out of his element after spending his life surrounded by people who either overlooked, ignored, or nepotistically disregarded his serious flaws that led to him breaking under the first time in his life he really felt the pressure of leadership and the responsibility of his rank.

[StationaryHawk]

Well Uther kinda made that choice for Arthas not the Arbiter.

My point being that Kael'thas was an arrogant, spoiled prince that would have seen the world end to get what he wanted, and he was deemed capable of redemption. This thread argues that Arthas is beyond redemption because he is a bad person, but Revendreth isn't a good place for good people. It's described specifically as a place nobody wants to end up, where souls are made to atone for their sins so that they can eventually move on (or not).

It's not impossible that Arthas could have ended up there, but as you said, Uther took the decision into his own hands.

[Wyattbw09]

Seems to me the Culling was only "the right thing to do" when you have the luxury of knowing what was really happening after the fact. But it did show what kind of person Arthas really was.

If you read the book. Arthas had already seen a small town or group turn from the grain. He knew what was going to happen. It was not hindsight, one can disagree with the choice he made but he was correct in what was going to happen because he knew it was going to happen it was not a guess.

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This thread argues that Arthas is beyond redemption because he is a bad person

I think given that we know Kael'thas went to Revendreth, and it appears like Garrosh also went to Revendreth. I think it can be fair to speculate that NOBODY goes straight to the Maw. Everyone is given the chance to redeem themselves in Revendreth. We don't know that for a fact but it sure seems to look that way.

[LorDC]

Arthas had never encountered or even seen Mal'ganis until after he had already started destroying homes to flush out and kill villagers.

But he knew of his existence. He knew that Cult of the Damn is still active and nowhere near defeated.

[Lolites]

People think he is evil because he didn't stop to think about another way, even when his mentor and girlfriend were there to help the him think of another alternative.

but they did not give him alternative, they just told him not to do that...

[StationaryHawk]

I think given that we know Kael'thas went to Revendreth, and it appears like Garrosh also went to Revendreth. I think it can be fair to speculate that NOBODY goes straight to the Maw. Everyone is given the chance to redeem themselves in Revendreth. We don't know that for a fact but it sure seems to look that way.

The Arbiter is described as sending souls who "represent a threat to the Shadowlands if left free" straight to the Maw, but I doubt that happens too often.

[Lolites]

Even if genocide is logically beneficial, it's never "the right thing to do". Can't believe the shit some people are spouting on this forum.

what are you new around this forum?
killing civilians in this case is OK bcs Arthas belonged to alliance at the time...

[Thage]

The Arbiter is described as sending souls who "represent a threat to the Shadowlands if left free" straight to the Maw, but I doubt that happens too often.

Basically, when things function normally there are only three scenarios that see you sent to the Maw:
1) You are so utterly, completely evil at the very core of your being that allowing you to remain free in the Shadowlands threatens the Shadowlands.

2) You fail your tasks as set forth by the Venthyr, or they otherwise determine you are never going to truly reform and thus their efforts are wasted on your purgatory.

3) You refuse reformation under the Venthyr's watch.

Going directly to the Maw is the most extreme of extreme scenarios, and considering we have other omnicidal maniacs as well as some of Arthas's top lieutenants active elsewhere in the Shadowlands, having paid their dues in Revendreth, we can safely assume Arthas was destined for purgatory in Revendreth rather than being sent directly to the Maw, and we can infer his being thrown in there by Uther and Devos is what inspired the Jailer to 'kidnap' Sylvanas on her way to be judged and strike a deal with her.

[Sarethion]

Arthas had never encountered or even seen Mal'ganis until after he had already started destroying homes to flush out and kill villagers.

Watch from about 7:00. Kel'thuzad told Arthas about Mal'ganis being responsible for the plague and operating in Stratholme. The fact that Arthas hasn't encountered Mal'ganis until he started to purge the city is irrelevant.

[Wyattbw09]

Its kinda sad, how Blizzard have a tendency to dig up dead characters, literally, from the grave who already had more than their fill.

The story of Arthas was fine, it had a good starting, middle and end. Redeption is not needed, as it would just feel like an unnecessary addition to his already concluded story.

I'm not sure why people think Afterlife is a set up for a Arthas redemption story? Arthas appears to be a plot device tool for showing the corruption of Bastion or at least Uther and Devos.

[Sondrelk]

Arthas was definitely evil in the literal sense. He did evil stuff before and after Frostmourne, but he did in fact have a believable arc where he kept accepting greater and greater evils for the greater good.
He started by purging Stratholme, a horrible action, but one which is perfectly believable for someone who takes the greater good to its logical extreme. He travelled to Northrend to make the purge worth it, then accepting progressively greater evils in his belief that Mal'ganis and the plague had to be destroyed at its root.

So yes, Arthas was at least to some extent evil before Frostmourne, but for one he clearly lost the remainder of his morals, if not all of them the second he took Frostmourne. Secondly he wasnt always evil before Frostmourne, it was a gradual descent that perfectly exemplifies the old adage of the road to villainy being paved with good intentions. And for Arthas this is absolutely true, he never seemed to do anything for anything but a genuine desire to be the king his people deserved, and ensure they were kept from all harm.

[Sanguinerd]

If you read the book. Arthas had already seen a small town or group turn from the grain. He knew what was going to happen. It was not hindsight, one can disagree with the choice he made but he was correct in what was going to happen because he knew it was going to happen it was not a guess

I have read the book thanks and not everyone was infected, not everyone deserved to die and it was only the best decision after the fact. If Arthas wasn't such a shitty character (personality wise) he would've first tried to save people like a proper Paladin would've.

[Kalisandra]

I'm saying that what Arthas did before he took the sword is definitely not bad enough to get him the Maw. And that he shouldn't be punished by what he did when magically stripped of his soul.

He wasn't stripped of his soul. He may have had the last parts of 'good side' removed or suppressed, but he didn't fight it. He got what he wanted, and melded with the other components (Ner'zhul, etc.) to become the Lich King. At the very least he was a willing accomplice.

[Sondrelk]

I'm not sure why people think Afterlife is a set up for a Arthas redemption story? Arthas appears to be a plot device tool for showing the corruption of Bastion or at least Uther and Devos.

Because if him being sent to the Maw is supposed to show Devis failing as a Kyrian and the definitive moral failing of Uther then it logically follows that we should rectify that mistake by saving him, whether or not Arthas deserves it or not is beyond the point, it would be extremely odd to build the event up and then drop it immediately.

Now if we save Arthas then we have to place him somewhere, and seeing as it would be anticlimactic to just send him back to the Maw after we just rescued him there he has to have a redemption arc of some point or his character is completely wasted.

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I have read the book thanks and not everyone was infected, not everyone deserved to die and it was only the best decision after the fact. If Arthas wasn't such a shitty character (personality wise) he would've first tried to save people like a proper Paladin would've.

That is the point of a tragic hero though. Arthas was not perfect despite his sincere efforts to live up to his charge not just as a paladin, but as a king.
He could have probably done something different in Stratholme, but he was rash and wanted to be decisive, a not unthinkable way to go when you know that time is of the essence.

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He wasn't stripped of his soul. He may have had the last parts of 'good side' removed or suppressed, but he didn't fight it. He got what he wanted, and melded with the other components (Ner'zhul, etc.) to become the Lich King. At the very least he was a willing accomplice.

I would not say anything definite about Arthas and the question of his free will after Frostmourne, or worse still as the Lich King. That lore changes on a dime, seemingly changing its mind every time it is brought up in an official piece of media.

[valax]

Before he touched Frostmourne he was a vengeful, manipulative asshole. He hired mercenaries to burn his own men's ship and their way home and then had his men kill the very mercenaries HE hired. He also killed basically an entire city full of people, where surely many people could have been saved, but he took an extremely radical and vile approach to a grim problem, evidently being more concerned with denying Mal'ganis than saving innocent lives.

After he touched Frostmourne he became a monster, as the blade consumed his soul and all good that remained within him was extinguished. But he definitely was not an entirely innocent or good person before either.

As someone with a bit of foresight once said "sometimes the hand of fate must be forced"

[LorDC]

Because if him being sent to the Maw is supposed to show Devis failing as a Kyrian and the definitive moral failing of Uther then it logically follows that we should rectify that mistake by saving him, whether or not Arthas deserves it or not is beyond the point, it would be extremely odd to build the event up and then drop it immediately.

Now if we save Arthas then we have to place him somewhere, and seeing as it would be anticlimactic to just send him back to the Maw after we just rescued him there he has to have a redemption arc of some point or his character is completely wasted.

Well, Devis and Uther could have been right for the wrong reasons. Or their very actions could have destroyed the last shreds of good in Arhtas' soul. But I am not sure that Blizzard is willing to write that kind of stories.

[baskev]

...and people want a redemption story? Even as a paladin he was portrayed as an arrogant spoiled prince, who treated his subordinates like shit. The Culling of Stratholme was basically im using whatever ends to justify means that would sate his maliciousness.

Yes and no.

He acted arrogant. But more on a i know better stand point then a i am a prince standpoint.
And yes a cruel boss to his soldiers.

As for stratholm yes and no. I think he thought it was the only option. But not because he was bad to the bone. But he thought he was right and it was the only way. And stratholm had no other option to happen like it did. They where all dead or infected.

[Sondrelk]

Well, Devis and Uther could have been right for the wrong reasons. Or their very actions could have destroyed the last shreds of good in Arhtas' soul. But I am not sure that Blizzard is willing to write that kind of stories.

Point is that it was set up, which means that it needs to be given a conclusion. And if we are going for a conclusion then a redemption of some sort is the only realistic option.
It doesnt necessarily have to be Arthas on hisknees in Revendreth promising to be a better person or anything like that, it could be something as simple as us finding him a slave of Sylvanas, defeating him and then an unspoken agreement that this he was redeemed for the bad he did.

Afterall, he has to not be in the Maw as a prisoner in some fashion for the story to have a point. If he becomes the new Jailer that will be his redemption, if he is taken out to a different realm then that is his redemption. It is even in one way his redemption if we have to destroy his soul and it moves on to become something new.

The story has simply painted itself into a corner whether it wants to or not, after showing that Arthas was thrown unjustly into the Maw a redemption arc is the only option the writers have.

[Wyattbw09]

it logically follows that we should rectify that mistake by saving him

I don't think so. He may have been destined for Revendreth but that does not make it our responsibility to pull him out of the Maw. Thrall, finally, admits he failed Garrosh, even the elementals found Thrall's actions to be so heinous that years later they still won't give him the time of day. I don't think we are going to be pulling Garrosh out of the fire in SL.

Arthas may well have a redemption story or at least more of the story within SL. However, I don't think Afterlives was intending to imply that Arthas was the point of the story rather then Uther and Devos.

[Kaver]

...and people want a redemption story? Even as a paladin he was portrayed as an arrogant spoiled prince, who treated his subordinates like shit. The Culling of Stratholme was basically im using whatever ends to justify means that would sate his maliciousness.

Sure Arthas was an arrogant jerk, but he wasn’t a villain. Arthas had no control while he was the Lich King.

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No the right thing to do would be kill those who turned only. Its not like everyone ate the bread that day. He just smells fresh bread and just says welp better kill everyone.

Arthas did the right thing.