Is there a divide?

[Sharnie786]

I understand that the majority, especially on this site, don't care about their performance but why do they keep saying "the 1-2%" when talking about people who do care about performance?

Do you care about performance? Or do you run around in old zones killing things so performance doesn't matter to you?

Edit: People seem to think I am arguing there is a 1-2%. My whole point was there isn't. More people care about performance than just the world first raiders, arena champions and MDIers.

And by performance I mean completing content and doing well at throughput-wise

Also, the reason I said the majority on this site don't care abour performance is because threads like, 'What are you basing your covenant "choice" on?' had responses like, 'I care about aesthetics not numbers.'

[munkeyinorbit]

I understand that the majority, especially on this site, don't care about their performance but why do they keep saying "the 1-2%" when talking about people who do care about performance?

Do you care about performance? Or do you run around in old zones killing things so performance doesn't matter to you?

You are completely misrepresenting the "majority" here. Everyone cares about performance. Everyone wants to get stronger. Saying that there are people who do not care about performance is wrong and it's even more wrong to say they are the majority.

There are people where performance is top pick. It doesn't matter how hard it is to do it, they always strive to get there. Then you have people that always go meta but may not put as much effort. Then there are the ones who take meta, make a few changes for their playstyles or skill and do that. Then there are those who think the way they look is more important than playing the way they are suppose to. There are other people as well but everyone of those people care about performance.

To answer your q about who is this 1%? It is the people who clear mythic regardless of the systems we use. They take what is given form strategies to deal with the systems and come up with a way to make those systems work for them. They definetly don't make threads misrepresenting people not like them and try to paint blizzard as the bad guy.

[SirCowdog]

I think that it's less about whether or not a person cares about performance, but to what degree.

The 1-2% are those mythic raiders and cutting edge progression players. The ones who will go to extremes, and do whatever the game allows them to do(and some that the game doesn't).

Then there's everyone else. Sure, the heroic and M+ key pushers are going to follow the path that the 1-2% set, but not to the same extreme. And the vast majority of players are going to follow the meta, but aren't going to spend 16 hours a day doing it. They'll just lean in that direction.


The problem is when Blizzard attempts to balance or alter the game to prevent or mitigate a problem that ONLY effects people who play at the top 1-2%, but applies that change to the entire game. 98% of the players aren't spending 10+ hours a day on 2 accounts and 10 alts in order to maximize and optimize every singel tiny fraction of a percent of performance out of the game. And so when Blizzard sets things up(like covenant swapping) to stop the top players from going super-optimal, but applies it to EVERYONE......it becomes a detriment to the vast majority of the game and the players.

So it's not that players don't care about their performance. Because like Munkeyinorbit said: They do. But not to such an extent that the entire game needs to be made inconvenient and convoluted in order to stop 98% of the playerbase from just meandering and leaning in that direction. Let the top 1-2% do their batshit crazy basement dwelling super-grind. But set up the rest of the game to actually be enjoyable for the people who DON'T play that way.

[Trend]

I understand that the majority, especially on this site, don't care about their performance but why do they keep saying "the 1-2%" when talking about people who do care about performance?

Do you care about performance? Or do you run around in old zones killing things so performance doesn't matter to you?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

You're welcome.

[shadowmatrix]

For about 80% of the playerbase performance equals being able to beat the content, we don't care about being top of the meters.

[Azerate]

I understand that the majority, especially on this site, don't care about their performance but why do they keep saying "the 1-2%" when talking about people who do care about performance?

Do you care about performance? Or do you run around in old zones killing things so performance doesn't matter to you?

I do care about my performance. I also think being able to swap your covenant whenever without any penalty diminishes the weight of the choice and the cool factor of the whole system.

The biggest lie some people try to peddle is that you are either a good player who agrees with everything Preach says on youtube, or you are some trash casual who only does mog runs in old expansions. There's a lot of middle ground, and people with different opinions than the ones considered "correct" by content creators.

1-2% are not people who care about performance. These are the world-top players who hold the belief that everyone should think like them.

[SirCowdog]

I do care about my performance. I also think being able to swap your covenant whenever without any penalty diminishes the weight of the choice and the cool factor of the whole system.

The biggest lie some people try to peddle is that you are either a good player who agrees with everything Preach says on youtube, or you are some trash casual who only does mog runs in old expansions. There's a lot of middle ground, and people with different opinions than the ones considered "correct" by content creators.

1-2% are not people who care about performance. These are the world-top players who hold the belief that everyone should think like them.

The problem is that a lot of the Covenant specific stuff isn't actually that cool. And really, honestly....if you think a faction is that cool, are you going to swap away from it constantly? Probably not.

The swapping thing is a made up problem. Being able to switch every day or every dungeon isn't a problem. It doesn't take away from your experience, because you're probably emotionally invested in your choice. THAT should be the barrier, not some arbitrary time-gating nonsense that only really serves to shackle the basement dwelling hardcore, and pose a completely unnecessary inconvenience to everyone else.

If Blizzard wants the covenant choice to be significant, then they need to do so by making the choice itself mean something cool and interesting. Simply slapping a massive penalty from switching doesn't actually make the choice better. It just means players are afraid to switch. And fear is a pretty poor basis for a decision.

[Echo of Soul]

The question isn't as simple as that. Sure it's true that an overwhelming number of players that visit sites like this one are more performance orientated there is a lot of grey between that black and white.

Some players absolutely care about performance with whatever tools they have. They may be "gimping" themselves because they enjoy the play style of a weaker talent but this doesn't mean that they're completely ignoring their rotation and just spamming lightning Bolt over and over again.

Some players work their asses off running what minmaxers would consider Inferior builds. They absolutely care about their performance but they also value customizing their gameplay to best suit them and in a way that makes it enjoyable.

We're not all robots who play the clunkiest setup possible just because of its higher numbers. The feral druid in Classic is a prime example. Most players probably don't enjoy swapping in and out of cat form every 2 seconds and farming 60 maces from gnomeregan per raid night so they just don't do that and play the class more like a rogue.

[Woobels]

The question isn't as simple as that. Sure it's true that an overwhelming number of players that visit sites like this one are more performance orientated there is a lot of grey between that black and white.

Some players absolutely care about performance with whatever tools they have. They may be "gimping" themselves because they enjoy the play style of a weaker talent but this doesn't mean that they're completely ignoring their rotation and just spamming lightning Bolt over and over again.

Some players work their asses off running what minmaxers would consider Inferior builds. They absolutely care about their performance but they also value customizing their gameplay to best suit them and in a way that makes it enjoyable.

We're not all robots who play the clunkiest setup possible just because of its higher numbers. The feral druid in Classic is a prime example. Most players probably don't enjoy swapping in and out of cat form every 2 seconds and farming 60 maces from gnomeregan per raid night so they just don't do that and play the class more like a rogue.

I don't get if what you're saying is pro or against covenant swapping. The player you describe would massively benefit from being able to swap freely and mess around.

[Kyphael]

Performance? Are you saying there's something wrong with my gear?

[A Chozo]

Almost every player cares about performance, otherwise they wouldn't get better gear.

Obsessing about performance is where it gets weird.

[Echo of Soul]

I don't get if what you're saying is pro or against covenant swapping. The player you describe would massively benefit from being able to swap freely and mess around.

Does it matter? What we're talking about here in this thread is caring vs not caring about your performance, it's not supposed to be about covenant swapping.

[Razion]

Many want to get stronger
Not everyone is competitive about it

[Azerate]

The problem is that a lot of the Covenant specific stuff isn't actually that cool. And really, honestly....if you think a faction is that cool, are you going to swap away from it constantly? Probably not.

The swapping thing is a made up problem. Being able to switch every day or every dungeon isn't a problem. It doesn't take away from your experience, because you're probably emotionally invested in your choice. THAT should be the barrier, not some arbitrary time-gating nonsense that only really serves to shackle the basement dwelling hardcore, and pose a completely unnecessary inconvenience to everyone else.

If Blizzard wants the covenant choice to be significant, then they need to do so by making the choice itself mean something cool and interesting. Simply slapping a massive penalty from switching doesn't actually make the choice better. It just means players are afraid to switch. And fear is a pretty poor basis for a decision.

No. Covenants being easily swappable changes the entire thing into just another talent option and removes any kind of importance of that choice.

It doesn't matter how invested you are in a covenant nor how cool it is, if it's just a one click button and 2 second channel to switch it. So yes, even if you think a faction is cool, you are going to swap away for it whenever a pug leader or a specific boss encounter favors it. If it's semi-permanent, then 99,9% of people aren't going to even consider going through crazy grinds to change the covenant for one fight. Maybe in top world guilds people will do that, but the rest of the player base will be able to sleep soundly that no one will require that from them.

In a way it's kind of similar to personal loot item level restriction. I can't count how many people in my heroic guild were like "oh dude sorry man can't trade that item to you cause of the ilvl, effin blizzard man" while talking to someone else who wanted the item and then told me in private later that they were just using that as an excuse and were secretly happy that the system blocked them from giving that item away because otherwise it would make them look bad for keeping a small upgrade rather than giving it to someone else.

So if you're wondering how covenant switch being gated for 2 weeks affects gameplay of less hardcore players...the answer is they won't be expected to switch it on the fly by pug leaders & guild raid leader. As a little bonus, if they actually "pulled the ripcord" that would mean that on top of being readily able to switch, people would have to learn to play their class with all the covenant abilities instead of just one. This might be the most important reason as to why Blizz is so reluctant to do that.

[goldlock]

I don't understand people who claim to not care about performance. Is wow really that fun of a game if you only play world quests and heroic dungeons flailing around randomly as you actively see people doing ten or more times your accomplishments by putting minimal effort into the game?

Personally I can't fathom the draw of it.

[cparle87]

I understand that the majority, especially on this site, don't care about their performance but why do they keep saying "the 1-2%" when talking about people who do care about performance?

Do you care about performance? Or do you run around in old zones killing things so performance doesn't matter to you?

There is no majority. There are millions of players grouped into dozens of groups who all want things their way. The min/maxers at all costs and the "I don't care I just do what's fun" are two extremes, with numerous groups and shades in between them.

[Krimzin]

I understand that the majority, especially on this site, don't care about their performance but why do they keep saying "the 1-2%" when talking about people who do care about performance?

Do you care about performance? Or do you run around in old zones killing things so performance doesn't matter to you?

Caring about performance is one thing. Being able to maximize performance is another thing entirely.
Of course I would rather play a stronger dps but when you look at current dps ranking its misleading.

Example: Fire mage in BFA that had Font/Wristwraps and correct corruptions, couldn't be touched on meters.
With that said, Fire mage had one of the highest, if not the highest skill cap in the game. So average players couldn't put up anywhere close to sim numbers.
It takes a top level player to understand and be able to pull off maximum dps every time.
Other classes, like DH and BM Hunters had a very low skill cap. Easier to put up high numbers.
So an average player would parse better with these classes.

So the point Im making is everyone cares about performance in some form. If not for pure strength, then for survivability.

If you didn't care about performance, why would you bother upgrading gear on a character.. more stats.. who cares.. more dps.. who cares.. <EVERYONE>

[SirCowdog]

No. Covenants being easily swappable changes the entire thing into just another talent option

Yes, that's true...but:

When taking a hard, objective look at covenants in theor current state....that's all they are right now: Effectively just more talents.

Maybe that will change later down the road. I know Blizzard REALLY wants them to be more. But right now they're not significant enough, mechanically, to warrant severe restrictions.

So imposing extra limits on them based on the idea that they're more than that is where things get out of hand.

- - - Updated - - -

It doesn't matter how invested you are in a covenant nor how cool it is, if it's just a one click button and 2 second channel to switch it. So yes, even if you think a faction is cool, you are going to swap away for it whenever a pug leader or a specific boss encounter favors it.

Or you could not, form your own group, or run with friends/guildies. This feels like the personal/master loot argument. No one forces you to adhere to the meta. If you agree to join someone else's run, you agree to their rules.

The alternative is that if you prefer a sub-optimal spec, you just won't get invited. Which is OK! Just find a run that isn't as stringent.

If it's semi-permanent, then 99,9% of people aren't going to even consider going through crazy grinds to change the covenant for one fight. Maybe in top world guilds people will do that, but the rest of the player base will be able to sleep soundly that no one will require that from them.

The fact that it's only semi permanent is the basis of the problem. This isn't a sub class or a new permanent spec for each class. It's just another set of rented powers that will go away at the end of the expansion.

And I refer you back to what I just said. If the choice is too onerous to swap, then you may not be required to switch. But you also may not get invited to the group at all if you don't use the "optimal" setup.

Personally I'd rather have the option to change easily if I so desired. If you choose not to use that option, that's ok! But the mistake is in assuming that forcing a semi-permanent choice is going to increase inclusiveness for sub-optimal builds. It won't. Any group that would have asked you to respec just wont take you at all.

In a way it's kind of similar to personal loot item level restriction. I can't count how many people in my heroic guild were like "oh dude sorry man can't trade that item to you cause of the ilvl, effin blizzard man" while talking to someone else who wanted the item and then told me in private later that they were just using that as an excuse and were secretly happy that the system blocked them from giving that item away because otherwise it would make them look bad for keeping a small upgrade rather than giving it to someone else.

Favoring a small upgrade for the individual over a large upgrade for the group is a bad decision in an organized raid group. No offense, but that sounds like a raid team full of selfish people.

And for every person who wants to feel relief at not having to face the consequences of being selfish, there are as many people who want to be selfless and put the group ahead of themselves but can't! They aren't allowed.

This is what more restrictive covenant swapping imposes. People might be willing to change in order to benefit their raid, but aren't allowed by the system.

So if you're wondering how covenant switch being gated for 2 weeks affects gameplay of less hardcore players...the answer is they won't be expected to switch it on the fly by pug leaders & guild raid leader. As a little bonus, if they actually "pulled the ripcord" that would mean that on top of being readily able to switch, people would have to learn to play their class with all the covenant abilities instead of just one. This might be the most important reason as to why Blizz is so reluctant to do that.

So instead of those casual players just taking the time to find a group that's less strict, lets lower the bar for the entire game, and change it for every player?

Wow....great basis for it. I mean...imagine the gall...requiring people to learn their class before being picked by a PUG that can be replaced 100 times a day. How horrible!

You know there's already a solution for people who are THAT casual? It's called LFR.

[taishar68]

I care, even if I'm not actively doing any group content, but in either case, I don't sweat game design. I do the best with what I have and that's that. If it's fucked up, it's fucked up for everybody, so what's the difference?

[Razion]

I don't understand people who claim to not care about performance. Is wow really that fun of a game if you only play world quests and heroic dungeons flailing around randomly as you actively see people doing ten or more times your accomplishments by putting minimal effort into the game?

Personally I can't fathom the draw of it.

Ironically, are you implying there's more challenge in being casual about performance and that it's less challenging to be optimal? Really kind of puts a weird spin on how people actually view what being competitive means to them... and, weirdly enough, I guess people who succeed with less optimal but more personal choices would not only be more satisfied by the additional challenge, but get the gratification of using what they like too...? Not saying I agree or disagree, just that the observation is kind of funny.