9.0 General Discussion

[Sarethion]

To activate the stone thing the First Ones made? I can't find any reference to the Heart on any videos. Was it added to the beta recently?

I've played through it like a week ago and I don't remember anything about Heart of Azeroth being the reason why we can activate the waystone. All that is said is that the stone is reacting to us for whatever reason and then there's a cinematic that isn't available and you just land in Oribos.

[Ariamis]

Looking at the full post, you know what, I've come around. I don't think you're operating from a negative place and you actually raise some good points.

I think my issue just partly boils down to that the full picture is, more or less, withheld. We only got an official concept of what conduits are in reference to the last press event. We knew far more about things like Sanctums, Conduits, and Soulbinds than they intended as a consequence of extensive datamining, but the reality was that a lot of the features and systems in place came about rather late in the game. When we're supplied with information at this juncture and are told that numbers tuning is in place 6-8 weeks out from release, it's a natural concern when we see the cracks forming when certain conduits weren't even available for testing until very recently.

In reference to your earlier comment on not wanting to strategize outside the game more than inside, comparing Aftershock and Condemn, I actually agree, which is why I feel like the position now actually means strategizing MORE outside of game. If you're heavily entrenched into a decision, it means you're more predisposed to wanting to make your choice based on things like performance or mechanics because you know it's not able to be adjusted with the same ease. When changes happen post-launch, it means that wanting to adjust based on this same thing is actually increasing the stress of making it difficult to change what spec you might be targeting or to reroll because of the amount of Renown catchup or Conduit grinding that might need to happen (we're still unsure of Conduit rankup distributions).

There are definitely cracks, but our rhetoric is that of trying to avoid a chasm; I can feel the dev's rolling their eyes every time someone posts #pulltheripcord lol.

It's absolutely manufactured; create so many variables that we'll be weeks into launch before we know know what is / isn't "optimal" - assuming there is a universally optimal option. We'll make the decision, be a few weeks into renown levelling / sanctum upgrades, and need to decide whether or not to abandon the decision we've made. Do we take the throughput loss of conduits, and set ourselves back to the grind? Is it worth it during Mythic progression? Do you switch to solve boss 6, then grind your ass off to be back in shape for boss 7? Or is this something we explore post-progression?

This is going to be a class-by-class, ability by ability decision - that's where our focus should be IMO. Discussing the theoretical whole doesn't help, but if we can discuss the weight of changing individual abilities, we can draw attention to the true flaws here; only by doing so can we start changing minds.

This is true, but it's also the best we have. Blizzard holds the keys to the kingdom in terms of data, and it's entirely on their end, but I'm struggling to think of many situations where community demand was directly misguided as compared to Blizzard's vision. There were positive and negative consequences, for sure - a Corruption vendor meant absolutely obscene combos that were perhaps never meant to be possible, but it also meant the bar for entry was less contingent on RNG or spending asinine amounts of gold. But I can't think of many situations where the community got what they wanted and it harmed the game, whereas developer vision has been littered with flaws, even if sometimes they knock it out the park.

With not a lot of targeted testing for raids, the data we have are looked at more like morsels rather than something that should be dismissed, because there's simply not a lot of gained faith, whether it's out of malice or incompetence. That's what I'm trying to get at - that the culture of a lot of WoW's player base, probably closer to 30% rather than 1%, is based in community cohesion rather than a cult of personality surrounding developers.

The corruption problem is an interesting thought experiment. Sure as shit it broke the game, and amplified the RNG issues pervading BFA, but the vendor enabled a power curve that casual players rarely get to experience. For all the Rextroy tricks and 30-tank run shenanigans, there are plenty of players pushing through raid encounters and keys they'd normally be unable to - directly as consequence of this clusterfuck. Those experiences still matter, even while many of us scoff at insta-gib stars.

I would argue that incomplete data is just as dangerous as no data; I think the spreadsheet is a good enough example. Someone put that shit out into the wilds, and a large chunk of us were sent into a rabid confirmation-bias induced frenzy. I imagine it's easy to sink back into corporate talking points when this is what your community presents as their compelling argument. It compromises the discussion, and creates undue animosity between players and developers.

There's always going to be meaningful applications of certain "less valued" abilities compared to the FOTM darlings, there's no question about it. Blizzard's already reverse-engineered some intended applications, sometimes to the detriment of certain fights (like the Stoneborne Generals intermission in Castle Nathria, Zzzzzzz). I think the issue is that the mindset of players cultivated for 16 years is going to be that they're going to be happy with what gives that benefit the most often or in the situations that call the most for it. Not all fights, dungeons, and zones are going to be equally difficult, which means even if Situation A favors Ability A, it still won't feel as good as B wanting B.

Is that partly on the players and that same cultivated mentality? I'd...argue no. I think that's in the DNA of the game. Even in Vanilla, respecs were possible if you could front the gold through farming. The opening of ease happened because of the player demand and the culture surrounding the flexibility of experiencing all a class was meant to offer. Now we're approaching an expansion priding itself on re-establishing class over spec identity, but this generally torpedoes that, because you won't enjoy certain other specializations as much. Are they gone? No. Are there meaningful applications? Yes, you are absolutely right. But it's a fly in the soup that never needed to be there and hasn't been for almost two decades. It is an invention.

I don't think I agree that it's part of the game's DNA; this is an issue that pervades gaming community as a whole. A development team either has to embrace that mentality, or find ways to curtail it. They've chosen the latter.

I don't see it as a binary problem, where you choose A for A, and B for B. I see it more as a spectrum of 100 scenarios. Ability A isn't just useful in scenario A; it's optimal in scenarios 1-30, adequate in 31-54, sub-par 55-80, and poor value 81-100. Ability B may be optimal in scenarios 25-50, adequate in 71-100, sub-par 51-70, and poor 1-24. What's the call?

The absence of spec swapping and talent adjustments severely hindered group content: I'd argue that drove the change more-so than the community (though that was our argument) - there's an objective engagement issue behind that call, it just happened to align with player demands. In Vanilla, you could tank pretty much anything as 31/5/15, but the power variance increased in BC and WOTLK as trees got deeper, and "off-spec" became a less-and-less viable option. That variance created the need for spec/talent redesign, or we'd have a worse tank drought than we do now.

We would've taken 120 talent points instead, if we could.

They're out there. It might not be as reflective on the spreadsheet, but it's worthwhile to point out that it's a very macro view of a system encompassing 48 (whew!) abilities, 52 when you talk about signatures. In actual, official capacities on the forums, you will see very detailed feedback about the practical applications, and it's reflective across the board of much of the same data.

Most of the feedback I see on the beta forums comment on the abilities in a vacuum (which is valuable in its own right), but I don't commonly see a point-to-point comparison. Warrior forums are full of people complaining about Banner not being on the back (which it should be) and the aftershock change in PvP, but nobody seems to be comparing them to each other, despite the fact that they share zone-control applications & challenges with their use in PvP.

This is a very new beast, though, relative to modern WoW. It's true that there were absolutely disgusting outliers in terms of racials, but it was in the last 4 years or so where throughput was balanced to 0.5% between one another and utility abilities hit enough nerfs where it wasn't obscene. Looking at something like the difference in races and classes and comparing them to the limitations on feedback loops inspires dread, not acceptance.

The thing is, when I look at a full picture of what Covenants could be, I feel so much lost potential. Character power is the absolute worst fucking way about it. Imagine if it was built properly into the story, where different NPCs and different quests would respond differently to you depending on your choice? Imagine if they vastly expanded the flavor of which you could approach certain major story beats based on your choice? None of this happens, though. The Covenants don't hate each other, the core story is the same, and I still earn actual fucking reputation with all of them, but apparently that's not good enough for them.

Instead, we have effectively a talent row with a baby gate on it. If we want to talk about meaningful gameplay and limitations, I think a place to start is just how much this lays bare how extremely limited WoW is as an RPG as soon as they try to dial up the amp up on it. The best RPGs have pillars of social, exploration, and combat. But WoW's core content will always just be relegated to combat, so they feel the need to slam player power into it for it to feel important...even though it'll always boil down to "which lets me perform my role best?" And that's where it falls apart.

That's a byproduct of a mature community, with robust analytical tools tools and a deep understanding of the core gameplay mechanics. We've created an arms-race, born of our collective knowledge; There's no time to explore and pace yourself with friends when the rest of the community is passing you by. AP and Azerite gear exacerbated the issue, for sure, but this has been an issue since Gearscore in WOTLK. Exploration is done on beta and community videos, you've gotta optimize your playtime otherwise.

We did this to ourselves. Look at Classic. It's a completely different game than original WoW because the community is so much more educated. High pop servers are a toxic dump because everyone's chasing a 16 year-old meta - social aspect of the game decays when we let combat control the community.

I see this as a painful step towards resolving that issue. Power is the most important choice we'll ever have to make - If we're forced to make a combat-related decision, and stick with it, we're forced to become more comfortable with variance. I'm sure there'll still be a meta to chase, but finding players to fit that exact mould will be more difficult.

This is where I don't see it, and I am reminded of Ion's assertion that someone wouldn't be rejected for making "the wrong choice" if they are unable to change that choice (which is absurd). We do, in fact, lose some of the diversity of these applications if people find a unanimously "right" choice. But the problem is that we gain more than we lose in the alternative - you have 3 more options of fun stuff to mess around with in Torghast. You have 3 more options on builds that you can mess with even if they are suboptimal rather than needing to lock yourself out for 2 weeks. You have, in many cases, that many more roles you can perform without feeling like your Covenant is less suited for it.

As much as it feels good to see that as a new identity in a game that might be hemorrhaging it, I'd strongly argue that the amount of fear of missing out and the buyer's remorse overtakes it. It's not that I don't see these things as valuable - it's that they are fundamentally at odds with this game. Some kind of wild, bold new WoW with permanent choices across the board and extremely complex systems that allow bold new choices on how to experience the game gets my blood pumping. But this just isn't it. This is a row of talents we haven't had in 2 expansions, only they couldn't even give us that.

Exclusions are going to happen, but I don't think it'll be any worse than the class exclusion issue we've got currently. The presumed hope is that we're all too lazy or scared to change to any theoretically optimal choice discovered, at the risk the one we've left behind gets bumped up.

IMO the dread of remorse is only this bad because it's amplified by the absence everywhere else in the game. Flexibility is - always - objectively better, which is why we've watched them dismantle every restriction in our way. There will never be a tangible downside to having a wider variety of options.

Intangibly, though? I can only speak for myself, but I haven't had to think about this game in years. I genuinely believe it's because my agency carries no weight, and my decisions have no consequences. I'm just another warrior, and instead of adapting my play to suit the challenge in front of me, I just check off a few different boxes.

I've kept myself interested by maintaining 12 alts; I pick the one that fits the content I want to run, in the style I want to do it in. I compare guidance across multiple sources, and adjust myself accordingly. I'm not invested in any of these characters, they're mostly just a means to satisfy whatever content I'm pursuing - I'm prone to disengage from the game for extended periods of time, as a result. It's not a great way to enjoy the game, TBH.

As much as my posts may indicate otherwise? I really am excited for Shadowlands. A lot. I want to play it. I want to enjoy it. When I leave feedback, it's because I want the game to be the best it can be. But despite all that, I haven't bought Shadowlands, and the only reason I haven't is the sheer glut of systems that make me extremely wary. But I want to!

The problem is that when we throw our hands up and say the only option is to vote with our wallets (which to an extent is true), it leaves the door open for people to say "you aren't even playing the game!" as if it devalues the feedback. Then you're just a hater, ya see. I think voting with your wallet is important, especially with a corporation I've flatly stated I suspect bad faith and greed from, but I think voting with passion and cultivating a sense of discourse among the community is even moreso. When people understand why these decisions exist and they become loud enough, I do believe things can happen, and I do think there's only so much give that is allowed before they realize it's not in their best interest to allow some of these systems to launch as-is.

Especially when so much of that good faith from the people who like it are...woefully misinformed as to how minimal covenants actually create a sense of identity in your character anyway.

I've said this earlier in this thread, but we're talking a completely different language than the devs are - neither is going to convince the other. Volume isn't going to convince an entire company that their design philosophies are wrong, and we lose credibility when our passion boils down to hashtags and memes. We'll have better luck pointing out specific cracks in the armour, and allow natural discovery and evolution of the narrative.

[Sondrelk]

Not attacking you or anything, this is a perfectly valid and healthy POV to have on the game - just pointing this post out as a great example of the mentality in reference to the other post I'm replying to.

Someone who doesn't care about perfect balance, accepts somewhat balanced covenants, and will pick "whichever ability is most fun on average" is not going to be impacted directly by the decoupling of abilities.

The imaginary "storm" that must be weathered has no reason to exist. It is an invention of a problem.

Just butting in here to mention that the argument that the argument that only those who want to optimize are hurt by the decision to make optimizing difficult is simply not true when you look deeper into it.
It may seem like a reasonable stand to make, but it is the same fallacious argument to make that those who want flying make when they claim that players who don't want flying can simply not fly.

Changes like these have consequences, not just on the moment to moment gameplay, but more importantly on the design of the game as a whole.
The Devs deciding that flying should be a thing, or that talents and specs should be easily cahngeable are making the game more convenient, but they are also removing the need to innovate and come up with more interesting solutions.

In the case of Covenants, while it may seem on the surface to only be a problem, it could manage to convince more players that chasing the meta is not necessary, which could create more diversity in classes.

[huth]

Yes, but its energy used up in the maw to allows us to escape.

It isn't. The heart has nothing at all to do with SL's story and isn't even mentioned.

[Asphyx22]

Considering they are actually making a high def cinematic featuring him (something N'zoth never got) they actively want to focus on him in a way they didn't with N'zoth.

Yeah The Jailer actually looks really cool and intimidating in that CGI pic. Definitely excited for the cinematic.

- - - Updated - - -

I got beta! won it through a T&E contest. Pretty pumped, even if it comes out in 6 weeks and perhaps I'm better off waiting, still gonna play it!

Grats! Enjoy it

[Valysar]

Still no news about island expeditions doable in solo ... :/

[TigTone]

It isn't. The heart has nothing at all to do with SL's story and isn't even mentioned.

I must have misread and misremembered someone’s past post. I apologize for any confusion.

[Sondrelk]

I must have misread and misremembered someone’s past post. I apologize for any confusion.

It was mentioned by the devs as the reason we are not immediately sent to the Maw and are stuck there at the beginning of the expansion. Whether this has been changed in development or if it is something that will only be relevant in the Pre-patch is hard to say at this point.

[Lahis]

It was mentioned by the devs as the reason we are not immediately sent to the Maw and are stuck there at the beginning of the expansion. Whether this has been changed in development or if it is something that will only be relevant in the Pre-patch is hard to say at this point.

It was originally stated to be the reason we could escape the Maw. Most likely that part got removed after they finished The 10-50 leveling revamp and made it so that new characters post 9.0 never get HoA.

[Gorsameth]

It was mentioned by the devs as the reason we are not immediately sent to the Maw and are stuck there at the beginning of the expansion. Whether this has been changed in development or if it is something that will only be relevant in the Pre-patch is hard to say at this point.

I thought it was simply that the HoA doesn't work in the Shadowlands because *drumroll* it's not on Azeroth.

[Sondrelk]

I thought it was simply that the HoA doesn't work in the Shadowlands because *drumroll* it's not on Azeroth.

Well there was a lot of explanations, but there was an explanation somewhere that we are able to leave the Maw or something to that effect because of our connection to Azerith through our HoA. And there was also the explanation that the neck doesnt work because we are in the Shadowlands.

Regardless there was just a lot of explanations that might have been changed since they were given.

[gunner_recall]

Well there was a lot of explanations, but there was an explanation somewhere that we are able to leave the Maw or something to that effect because of our connection to Azerith through our HoA. And there was also the explanation that the neck doesnt work because we are in the Shadowlands.

Regardless there was just a lot of explanations that might have been changed since they were given.

I think that's what they said during Blizzcon or something, that we were gonna sacrifice it's power so we could escape, not sure about the not working since we're in THE GHOST ZONE

[rainhard]

I think that's what they said during Blizzcon or something, that we were gonna sacrifice it's power so we could escape, not sure about the not working since we're in THE GHOST ZONE

I think in blizzcon they just said that we escape the maw because the heart activates the stone thing not that it depletes its power doing so but its powers will not work in the lands of the dead other than that of course.

[Lady Atia]

It was originally stated to be the reason we could escape the Maw. Most likely that part got removed after they finished The 10-50 leveling revamp and made it so that new characters post 9.0 never get HoA.

Wait, new characters never get the HoA???

I'm just checking this on Beta, and for my copied lvl 45 Paladin both the Battle for Lordaeron and Stormwind Stealth are available, although the last is no longer skippable. But yeah, "A Dying World" is no longer available ... weird - so its use for timewalking is only for people who played BfA?

Edit: Seems like you can get it once you reach level 50 now:

"I tested this recently with a 1-50 character on PTR, the HoA questline only becomes available at level 50. Getting awarded azerite while levelling to 50 (but that just having vanished when you finally do get the HoA) feels like an insult, but I understand it was probably left in to allow characters that had already acquired a HoA before the prepatch to continue as before. Nevertheless, it should be possible to tweak those quest rewards to give more gold or XP instead of Azerite – or just convert the Azerite into rested XP?"

https://eu.forums.blizzard.com/en/wo...racters/175952

[gunner_recall]

I think in blizzcon they just said that we escape the maw because the heart activates the stone thing not that it depletes its power doing so but its powers will not work in the lands of the dead other than that of course.

Yeah, I probably misremember that but I know it was something with the heart.

[Great Destiny Man]

Wait, new character never get the HoA???

Nope, the revamped levelling experience takes you straight to your respective BfA capital and gets you started with it immediately. Some of the BfA quests now include neck reward options to compensate for the lack of HoA.

[Vakir]

It's absolutely manufactured; create so many variables that we'll be weeks into launch before we know know what is / isn't "optimal" - assuming there is a universally optimal option. We'll make the decision, be a few weeks into renown levelling / sanctum upgrades, and need to decide whether or not to abandon the decision we've made. Do we take the throughput loss of conduits, and set ourselves back to the grind? Is it worth it during Mythic progression? Do you switch to solve boss 6, then grind your ass off to be back in shape for boss 7? Or is this something we explore post-progression?

This is going to be a class-by-class, ability by ability decision - that's where our focus should be IMO. Discussing the theoretical whole doesn't help, but if we can discuss the weight of changing individual abilities, we can draw attention to the true flaws here; only by doing so can we start changing minds.

If it's manufactured, it's pretty poorly done. The only reason there isn't an immediate consensus is the amount of tuning (and outright non-functioning abilities). What Blizzard doesn't seem to get is that regardless of a case by case scenario, someone will always view a choice as "optimal," but they've actually had good examples in the past of rows that are hard choices because they're good abilities shared on a single talent row. Adapting to new situations and difficulties makes things more interesting, not less.

I honestly feel like making this inflexible actually puts them in a position to make their job easier, not to make the game better. If there was flexibility in their abilities, it would mean that they would actually need to try at making it difficult to decide which is good in certain situations.

The corruption problem is an interesting thought experiment. Sure as shit it broke the game, and amplified the RNG issues pervading BFA, but the vendor enabled a power curve that casual players rarely get to experience. For all the Rextroy tricks and 30-tank run shenanigans, there are plenty of players pushing through raid encounters and keys they'd normally be unable to - directly as consequence of this clusterfuck. Those experiences still matter, even while many of us scoff at insta-gib stars.

No argument there - but it's worth pointing out that the corruption vendor happened because of the community. If people were mum about it, nothing would happen. I ultimately think it did more good than harm, even if there's some ridiculous bullshit afoot. Because people were still getting nonsensical, unfair combinations, it was just due to lotto winning or paying a fuckton of gold.

I would argue that incomplete data is just as dangerous as no data; I think the spreadsheet is a good enough example. Someone put that shit out into the wilds, and a large chunk of us were sent into a rabid confirmation-bias induced frenzy. I imagine it's easy to sink back into corporate talking points when this is what your community presents as their compelling argument. It compromises the discussion, and creates undue animosity between players and developers.

Then developers need thicker skin. They're the ones holding the power, they are the ones beholden to the community's reactions, and they are the ones that have earned the lack of faith they're hemorrhaging. All of the systems through Legion and BFA didn't need to be bad, and indeed would have been better for the game if they had dealt with the initial blowback and didn't lie ("You can target legendaries"). Wakening Essences could've had a significantly higher cost that was reduced over time to prevent over-targeting. Ditto for Echoes.

It's really hard to be behind the idea of good will and better relations with developers when they haven't done that much to earn things beyond...remove Torghast keys and lighten Torments. Before removing an endless mode. Whoops.

Yeah, there's gonna be a frenzy of community reaction sometimes in response to small footsteps they interpret as a stampede, but it's worth noting that it's also the onus on the developers to recognize that as a team of initials that are a several-thousandth of the community reacting to them, they're going to be hearing a lot of noise, and maybe that passion is reflective of how much people give a shit about the guns they're sticking to. If the reaction of a small sect devalues the platform of people who do know what they're talking about, and have shown to for a solid 4+ years, they probably weren't planning on listening in the first place.

I don't think I agree that it's part of the game's DNA; this is an issue that pervades gaming community as a whole. A development team either has to embrace that mentality, or find ways to curtail it. They've chosen the latter.

I don't see it as a binary problem, where you choose A for A, and B for B. I see it more as a spectrum of 100 scenarios. Ability A isn't just useful in scenario A; it's optimal in scenarios 1-30, adequate in 31-54, sub-par 55-80, and poor value 81-100. Ability B may be optimal in scenarios 25-50, adequate in 71-100, sub-par 51-70, and poor 1-24. What's the call?

Since top end content is tuned around optimization, and this is confirmed by the powers that be, the fact that there is so much variance remains a problem when the adjustment can't happen. Even then, I think you can break the 100 situations down by what does the "least damage" (which I'd argue again feels less good than just picking what you want) and you still have an "answer," it's just a less satisfying answer. Obviously this was thrown together as an example, I doubt you calculated it out which is fine, but A is better than B here because it has the least poor and the most optimal. This would change, naturally, depending on how "sub-optimal" is sub-optimal, but that's why quantitative over qualitative is important. It's hard to just apply qualitative labels to something, which is why the spreadsheet in question is, yes, flawed.

The absence of spec swapping and talent adjustments severely hindered group content: I'd argue that drove the change more-so than the community (though that was our argument) - there's an objective engagement issue behind that call, it just happened to align with player demands. In Vanilla, you could tank pretty much anything as 31/5/15, but the power variance increased in BC and WOTLK as trees got deeper, and "off-spec" became a less-and-less viable option. That variance created the need for spec/talent redesign, or we'd have a worse tank drought than we do now.

We would've taken 120 talent points instead, if we could.

I'd argue that the inability to swap certain Covenant abilities and losing out on certain dungeon bonuses will hinder certain high-end keys or boss progression. It's not as severe as a full specialization swap, obviously, but if it creates a situation where that's the problem, it means that people are in the same boat where they're ultimately waiting on a combination that benefits them rather than wanting to take a 40-60 minute plunge that might fuck up their key or yield a lot of ill-will and guild drama, potentially people leaving.

The social component of an MMO is part of the issue here. It's not just the problem we created for ourselves, it's the expectations of being in a social environment in the first place. The consequences of these bonds and the massive fallout of these kinds of problems are too big to ignore. Guilds have died over less.

Most of the feedback I see on the beta forums comment on the abilities in a vacuum (which is valuable in its own right), but I don't commonly see a point-to-point comparison. Warrior forums are full of people complaining about Banner not being on the back (which it should be) and the aftershock change in PvP, but nobody seems to be comparing them to each other, despite the fact that they share zone-control applications & challenges with their use in PvP.

There's a pretty good, Blue-created thread regarding it. https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wo...-survey/616438 Still examined in a vacuum, but at least does a better job on looking at individualized problems across spec.

I love this particular quote from an MVP, because it's so endemic of the issue:

"On the other hand, I LOATH the Venthyr. I do not like their characters or story. I do not like their purpose or how they go about what they do. I do not like their rewards. I do not like the party covenant event. I just do not like the Venthyr at all with the exception of the Gothic Architecture in that zone. So while they have an ability I absolutely LOVE I am miserable in every other aspect of the covenant. I don’t feel rewarded, I don’t feel like I have fun with their events, I do not feel like my character would fit there, I just don’t like them nor want to be part of them."

It's almost like maybe they should decouple this shit from player power. If they want a more complex system that discourages immediate optimization, cool, maybe don't tie it to weekly events people don't enjoy and environments/characters people may fucking hate. ENJOY YOUR NAKED FAERIES, YOU DEATH KNIGHT PIECE OF SHIT. Hell, it's not even about optimization, since some abilities are just flat out more enjoyable to play with.

That's a byproduct of a mature community, with robust analytical tools tools and a deep understanding of the core gameplay mechanics. We've created an arms-race, born of our collective knowledge; There's no time to explore and pace yourself with friends when the rest of the community is passing you by. AP and Azerite gear exacerbated the issue, for sure, but this has been an issue since Gearscore in WOTLK. Exploration is done on beta and community videos, you've gotta optimize your playtime otherwise.

Yup, and it's going to evolve much faster than Blizzard thinks. We'll be back to where we were in a week or two after launch, perhaps sooner. The only difference will be that people will feel soft-locked into a situation and will resent it. They'll be deeper in the hole AND will need to go through the same motions. It doesn't gate the ability for players to do this, it worsens it.

We did this to ourselves. Look at Classic. It's a completely different game than original WoW because the community is so much more educated. High pop servers are a toxic dump because everyone's chasing a 16 year-old meta - social aspect of the game decays when we let combat control the community.

I'd say Classic is a different beast because we don't just have analytical tools, we also have a vision of the future. People know what specs and classes will be good BEFORE they happen. People know the precise trajectory of the game, so it turns into a rat race to finish content in an under an hour, rather than experiencing new content authentically with a mindset of...doing your best and enjoying it.

Classic, I think, is also a good example of the problems with this new system, actually. By having more hoops that you need to jump through - world buffs, fucktons of consumables, etc. - it doesn't make it any less possible for people to do these things, it makes it worse, because if some can, they will. The logic 16 years ago surrounding Onyxia's head buff was probably "cool, you can benefit the city when you turn it in! Players probably won't stockpile these and turn it into a mindless fucking conveyer belt - except for on bosses we tuned it for, like Loatheb...which doesn't exist yet, wait what's Loatheb am I having a stroke." NOT ANYMORE, MOTHERFUCKERS.

Adding more variables that are seen as not a problem, because the community can't possibly gatekeep/optimize them, backfires. Because they will. You made the gate for entry more difficult in response to trying to make it more open.

I see this as a painful step towards resolving that issue. Power is the most important choice we'll ever have to make - If we're forced to make a combat-related decision, and stick with it, we're forced to become more comfortable with variance. I'm sure there'll still be a meta to chase, but finding players to fit that exact mould will be more difficult.

I respect the optimism, but dread it. Not for what it is now, but for what it might be in 10.0 or 11.0. Because when this fails, and it will, I am worried they'll keep doubling down. Another system, 3x, 5x, 10x bigger, until it can't possibly be optimized, because god forbid we just make the game about choices that are driven by players selecting what makes sense for a situation based on their skill and judgment. Instead we have to prove we're smarter than them, or something.

Exclusions are going to happen, but I don't think it'll be any worse than the class exclusion issue we've got currently. The presumed hope is that we're all too lazy or scared to change to any theoretically optimal choice discovered, at the risk the one we've left behind gets bumped up.

Respectfully, I do think it'll be worse. People are going to gatekeep and early enough in an expansion there will be enough players playing the perceived meta to allow for it. It might peter out towards the end of each patch, once a rhythm has been found, people overgear content, and the less elitist are more comfortable bringing in the stragglers, but let's be honest, by the time 9.1.5 hits this won't be a problem because Covenants will effectively no longer exist, replaced with the Forgemaster's Ballsack, a complicated talent tree attached to each Conduit you have, with that talent tree being re-randomized every time you upgrade that conduit.

IMO the dread of remorse is only this bad because it's amplified by the absence everywhere else in the game. Flexibility is - always - objectively better, which is why we've watched them dismantle every restriction in our way. There will never be a tangible downside to having a wider variety of options.

Intangibly, though? I can only speak for myself, but I haven't had to think about this game in years. I genuinely believe it's because my agency carries no weight, and my decisions have no consequences. I'm just another warrior, and instead of adapting my play to suit the challenge in front of me, I just check off a few different boxes.

And that is the fault of developers. Talents need to be better. Tuning passes need to be made to bring them closer together, which has not been done. More interesting talents need to be given. NEW TALENT ROWS (gasp) need to be brought in with more interesting abilities that require player thought based on the situation, encouraged to shift depending on circumstances. This works sometimes. Nature's Balance vs. Force of Nature if you need some kind of off-taunt is a good example.

I've said this earlier in this thread, but we're talking a completely different language than the devs are - neither is going to convince the other. Volume isn't going to convince an entire company that their design philosophies are wrong, and we lose credibility when our passion boils down to hashtags and memes. We'll have better luck pointing out specific cracks in the armour, and allow natural discovery and evolution of the narrative.

I still feel like the onus is on the devs to read the room and learn the language, then. It's true that on an individual basis, the armor cracks can be pointed out. That's why that thread exists and why they created it. But in a macro sense, I can't help but be confused why I should play inspector talking about a door that's been installed improperly and an electrical outlet problem when the house itself is built on the fucking cemetery from Poltergeist and I'm peeling my face off.

I can't help but theorize, looking at the new PC Gamer, that a big part of not making any significant changes yet is also a marketing feint, since so many materials have already been printed and so much has already invested in selling to the public that is not on board that this is a bold new "your choice!" direction for the game. Maybe they'll back off soon before launch once that phase has passed. We'll see. Until then, though, they seem disconnected from modern gaming. The most popular games now, the ones leaving WoW in the dust of its 2009 peak relevance, are ones that are usually more lobby-based and flexible anyway. This shit ain't Deus Ex, and it can't be so long as it's multiplayer and ostensibly competitive.

[Vasoka]

Well boys... could this be the week we get the 2 week early notice for pre patch??

[gunner_recall]

Well boys... could this be the week we get the 2 week early notice for pre patch??

Most likely, yeah. I mean it's gotta be this week or next week unless we're only getting 2 weeks of prepatch.

[TigTone]

Wish they would release patch date soon.

I cant wait to play around with

https://shadowlands.wowhead.com/item...-of-the-past-v