SPOILERS: Shadowlands Lore Thread

[Varodoc]

the roleplaying is getting out of hand.
on a serious note, very questionable, considering the void lords are "envious" of the titans power and unable to corrupt them. and just bc its said in chronicles that the clash of light and void created the universe doesnt make it so.
everything in chronicles can be retconned now, bc it was only from the titans point of fckng view. blizz can spin this however they want, and they can endlessly add new, bigger beings.
be prepared for the "before ones" in 5y from now, who created the first ones.
and in 10y, well face the mighty "beyond ones" who in turn created the before ones.

Wrong, the Void Lords are envious just because they can't manifest in the physical reality. In truth the Void Lords are the greatest power in the cosmos and the mere knowledge of them made Sargeras mad. Evem the mysterious first ones are afraid of them, that's why they wanted to protect the Shadowlands from what is beyond.

The Void is the most powerful and insidious force in the Warcraft verse, visit Mac'aree in the game if you don't believe me.

[darkoms]

Wrong, the Void Lords are envious just because they can't manifest in the physical reality. In truth the Void Lords are the greatest power in the cosmos and the mere knowledge of them made Sargeras mad.

The Void is the most powerful force in the Warcraft verse, visit Mac'aree in the game if you don't believe me.

You really need to reread the Chronicle, especially the chapter on Sargeras' betrayal. Sargeras went mad because he feared that the Old Gods would corrupt the Titan baby and make the Titan Void. Sargeras had learned about the Void Lords long before the Old Gods were discovered, but decided that demons were a more important issue.

[bagina]

https://warcraft.blizzplanet.com/blo...ition-art-book

Please let Sylvanas keep her agency...

The First Ones who shaped the cosmos knew they needed to protect the Shadowlands from external threats and beyond. Maldraxxus was their answer.

So the way I see it, the First Ones gave their kids (the Eternal Ones) a sandbox to play with and fucked off to who knows where?

[Houle]

You really need to reread the Chronicle, especially the chapter on Sargeras' betrayal. Sargeras went mad because he feared that the Old Gods would corrupt the Titan baby and make the Titan Void. Sargeras had learned about the Void Lords long before the Old Gods were discovered, but decided that demons were a more important issue.

this.
sargeras feared the possibillity of a void titan, not the void lords themselves, of whom he knew much earlier. and the first ones created maldraxxus to act as a defense against everything, bc they decided to fck off somewhere, so they cant do it themselves.
from what we've seen so far, fel magic is just as bad as void magic. it pretty much does the same, it consumes souls, and corrupts everything it touches.

in be4 elune turns out to be a creation/kid/whatever related to the first ones (i doubt she is one herself, as the void calls her an "upstart goddess")

[darkoms]

this.
sargeras feared the possibillity of a void titan, not the void lords themselves, of whom he knew much earlier. and the first ones created maldraxxus to act as a defense against everything, bc they decided to fck off somewhere, so they cant do it themselves.
from what we've seen so far, fel magic is just as bad as void magic. it pretty much does the same, it consumes souls, and corrupts everything it touches.

in be4 elune turns out to be a creation/kid/whatever related to the first ones (i doubt she is one herself, as the void calls her an "upstart goddess")

be4? it's mean before?

[bagina]

be4? it's mean before?

From urban dictionary:

inb4
Generally used on internet forums, inb4 refers to a user posting a reply to a message/topic "before" another user posts an obvious response. When used appropriately, inb4 is followed by a word or short phrase that the user knows will eventually appear in the topic conversation.

[TheFirstOnes]

The Light Lords and Void Lords are so much stronger than even the first ones. Make no mistake, these fools only shaped the cosmos. It was the Light and Void clashing against each others that created said cosmos. Indeed, the first ones, in their wisdom, understood that they needed to protect the Shadowlands from what was beyond.

Pretty sure when they mean "shaped", they mean "created". I assume the First Ones created the flash between Light and Shadow. Cause remember, Light and Shadow are part of the Cosmic chart. Therefore, they are within the Cosmos. They are the fundamental parts of the Cosmic Chart, so they couldn't have made everything, so creation would have had to happen so they could happen, and the other way around.

- - - Updated - - -

Please let Sylvanas keep her agency...



So the way I see it, the First Ones gave their kids (the Eternal Ones) a sandbox to play with and fucked off to who knows where?

The entire WoW Cosmology is but a sandbox to the First Ones. Simple.

- - - Updated - - -

You really need to reread the Chronicle, especially the chapter on Sargeras' betrayal. Sargeras went mad because he feared that the Old Gods would corrupt the Titan baby and make the Titan Void. Sargeras had learned about the Void Lords long before the Old Gods were discovered, but decided that demons were a more important issue.

Didn't the Dreadlords tell him that in hopes of breaking the Titan Pantheon though? The entire point of all that was to manipulate and spread fear of the Void to the entire cosmology, therefore making everyone ignore Death as a whole.

This would lead to: The fall of the Pantheon, the Light getting fucked by the Legion, the Legion fucking up the entire physical plane of reality, etc etc, therefore bringing Anima to the Shadowlands, where Denathrius would siphon all of it to the Maw for the Jailer, causing the slow yet inevitable drought within the Shadowlands.

[Super Dickmann]

Amazing how Warcraft's afterlife works just like real life human justice systems and corporate worlds. There's no tried and true formula, it's just an individual or group's whims at any given time.

I'd honestly be in stunned silence if this was some kind of meta-commentary. Instead, it's one of those unintentional bits of nuance that are cool, but sad since once we fix the Arbiter she'll be presented as a benevolent godhead.

The Val'kyr being sent to trick Sylvanas solves one issue (Why they decided to latch onto her - she was conveniently there and they were tied to another power) and opens a chasm worth of more, like why the Jailor has ties to them to begin with, starting with none of this being in the original story where she quite obviously meets with them and draws conclusions very different from being sent to kill Bolvar, which she never addresses, even in her own mind, even in BFA.

But that's par for the course. The art is pretty.

[Pebrocks The Warlock]

I'd honestly be in stunned silence if this was some kind of meta-commentary. Instead, it's one of those unintentional bits of nuance that are cool, but sad since once we fix the Arbiter she'll be presented as a benevolent godhead.

I got a feeling we're going to beat some sense into her like we did with Alaglon and Ra-den.

[darkoms]

I do not think that the First created Light and Void. I think they appeared after their collision and were the first beings in the universe. Most likely they possessed all the cosmological forces. Or perhaps each First was associated with one of the Forces and the main Firsts were the First of the Light and the First of the Void. As White Guardian and Black Guardian in Doctor Who.

[Super Dickmann]

Like @Houle said some of this is really blatant:

The First Ones who shaped the cosmos knew they needed to protect the Shadowlands from external threats and beyond. Maldraxxus was their answer.

Literally the Titans, except with a different name. Complete with abandoned architecture and an archvillain who went rogue and uses an army of those he was previously sent to judge/destroy.

[Aucald]

I'd honestly be in stunned silence if this was some kind of meta-commentary. Instead, it's one of those unintentional bits of nuance that are cool, but sad since once we fix the Arbiter she'll be presented as a benevolent godhead.

The Val'kyr being sent to trick Sylvanas solves one issue (Why they decided to latch onto her - she was conveniently there and they were tied to another power) and opens a chasm worth of more, like why the Jailor has ties to them to begin with, starting with none of this being in the original story where she quite obviously meets with them and draws conclusions very different from being sent to kill Bolvar, which she never addresses, even in her own mind, even in BFA.

But that's par for the course. The art is pretty.

The Val'kyr were always tied to the realms of Death, which explains how they have some tie to the Jailer (also a being who dwells in the plane of Death).

[Feanoro]

Like @Houle said some of this is really blatant:



Literally the Titans, except with a different name. Complete with abandoned architecture and an archvillain who went rogue and uses an army of those he was previously sent to judge/destroy.

Called it months ago.

Judging by the current reveals these writers are spewing, First Trolls of course!

From Danuser's little mind:
"Maladraxus inspired that cheap copy (that previous writers made, mine is better!), the Scourge
Ardenweald inspired the cheap copy called Emerald Dream
The First Ones inspired the cheap copy called Titans
Kyrians inspired Valkyr

Damn Metzen for using his time machine to steal my ideas and go back to the past! Also, my self-insert Nathanos is so cool he withstood power that killed Old Gods!"

Ah, following the link provided earlier in the thread clears up everything about why the earlier Night Warrior could kill an Old God, when Tyrande couldn't handle a zombie with a bow. Thiernax talks about arguing with his husband over the power's risk. I see now, he was infused with woke potential. If only Tyrande had been gay, then she could have slightly injured Danuser's self-insert.

I'm more convinced every day SL is the first expansion they'll have to pay me to touch.

[Super Dickmann]

The Val'kyr were always tied to the realms of Death, which explains how they have some tie to the Jailer (also a being who dwells in the plane of Death).

As said there's elements of it that work - the Jailor being able to make Val'kyr using the powers of the kyrian to be able to hijack the flow of death on the other side of the Life-Death divide works, and he'd know how to do it. Ditto, the Val'kyr working for the Jailor would explain why they choose to tie themselves to Sylvanas. But there's broader problems when it comes to this being stapled on later and how it switches the order of things - it's not the Jailor who send sdthe Val'kyr to recruit Sylvanas on false pretense, but Sylvanas who meets the Jailor (contradicting Edge of Night) and setting her a mission to unseat Bolvar, that as we've chatted in other threads and probs will again but won't burden this topic with, doesn't gel.

In general, the changes to the Helm have some benefits and a fair number of downsides, mostly in being contradictory and stripping the agency of all involved in favor of the Jailor, who's in a very interesting spot for a character. His schemes are interesting, the dreadlord ties are as well, the plotting as presented in its own context, disregarding prior lore, hypes him up successfully. But everything we see of him in person from his design to his lines are incredibly underwhelming.

@Feanoro

Prophecy in action.

[Aucald]

As said there's elements of it that work - the Jailor being able to make Val'kyr using the powers of the kyrian to be able to hijack the flow of death on the other side of the Life-Death divide works, and he'd know how to do it. Ditto, the Val'kyr working for the Jailor would explain why they choose to tie themselves to Sylvanas. But there's broader problems when it comes to this being stapled on later and how it switches the order of things - it's not the Jailor who send sdthe Val'kyr to recruit Sylvanas on false pretense, but Sylvanas who meets the Jailor (contradicting Edge of Night) and setting her a mission to unseat Bolvar, that as we've chatted in other threads and probs will again but won't burden this topic with, doesn't gel.

In general, the changes to the Helm have some benefits and a fair number of downsides, mostly in being contradictory and stripping the agency of all involved in favor of the Jailor, who's in a very interesting spot for a character. His schemes are interesting, the dreadlord ties are as well, the plotting as presented in its own context, disregarding prior lore, hypes him up successfully. But everything we see of him in person from his design to his lines are incredibly underwhelming.

I don't think anything about this new reveal really contradicts Edge of Night, as nothing requires or even really implies the Jailer actually met with Sylvanas - only that they made a pact. If the Nine served the Jailer then, this "pact" would probably be the selfsame pact Sylvanas made with the Nine following her death at Icecrown Citadel - the one that bound her to them and her to them, and thus also bound Sylvanas to the Maw and the Jailer. Over time this bond would grow in power as the Jailer grew in power (using the ever-widening foothold to his advantage), and eventually he could treat with Sylvanas more directly through their connection (somewhere during BfA).

Being manipulated by the Jailer doesn't really remove all the other connected characters agency, either; especially they're otherwise unaware of the Jailer's machinations. I'd agree the Jailer's characterization thus far isn't very impressive - he kind of comes off like most other cliched WoW villains, but I don't think we've really seen much of him yet so I'm going to reserve judgment until later. There's plenty of time for them to pull a narrative bait and switch and improve his character.

[MikeBogina]

The Val'kyr were always tied to the realms of Death, which explains how they have some tie to the Jailer (also a being who dwells in the plane of Death).

hey now, i remember making a thread(https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...as-was-tricked) saying the Valkyr were used to trick Sylvanas, to which you disagreed with

[Villager720]

That Sinstone got updated in a recent patch, and now Faedra apparently died in the War of the Shifting Sands:

They also updated Sharth's sinstone that seemingly stated that torturing a naaru was a "net positive" on the sin scale.
They still left in the bit implying that some souls can be sent directly to the Maw.

[Aucald]

hey now, i remember making a thread(https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...as-was-tricked) saying the Valkyr were used to trick Sylvanas, to which you disagreed with

Not completely, I replied:

I'm actually starting to think that Sylvanas was tricked, albeit not quite the way the OP relates (I think). I think by the time Sylvanas died at Icecrown the Jailer was sufficiently powerful enough to snag her soul and bring her to Maw directly, bypassing her second judgement by the Arbiter. There he was able to torture her with all the things she truly feared and dreaded. Then he allows the Nine Val'kyr to bring her back out of the Maw and tempt her with possible escape, thereby instilling and inculcating the fear that would eventually drive her directly into his full service later on as a means to avoid an actually false fate she believes is otherwise unavoidable.

I haven't changed this position either, and the fact that we now have confirmation that the Nine serve the Jailer it's an even more likely line of supposition.

[LemonDemonGirl]

By every joy and sorrow, the Arbiter judges all mortal souls and sets them on their intended path. Without her guidance, those souls would be forever lost within the infinite realms of the Shadowlands.

Ok soo basically.... any psychopomp/whatever can send souls to their own separate afterlives (Bwonsamdi taking trolls to his Other Side for example), because merely directing souls is a way to stop them from being lost in the infinite realms?


(Also, for anyone who has the artbook, is there any new info/pictures on De Other Side? )

[Th3Scourge]

Everything seems cringe.

Yeah SL lore is for the fucking bin. Makes me roll my eyes everytime there's some 'big' revelation