SPOILERS: Shadowlands Lore Thread

[TheFirstOnes]

When they said chronicle was written with pov, they also said it was written from the Titans' and their creations' pov. So while the Titans were imprisoned by Sargeras, they couldn't have said or written anything, which is why that was written by someone else (aligned with the Titans, say... someone like Algalon, who may have known what Ra-den knew, but also knew that the Keepers were already too far gone to do anything about it, like Ra-den, so he only wrote it down as history, but didn't tell them)

That is true. Could also explain why the Chronicles talks about us a ton also, cause the Keepers were looking at our journey's, etc.

[masterjc]

https://www.wowhead.com/news=318433/...ers-plan-for-h

"" The Helm of Domination was crafted to be our way forward; instead, the one seared by the flames of life uses it to keep us at bay. ""
As all past Lich Kings resisted the Jailer in some way or faced defeat on Azeroth, the Jailer has now turned to Sylvanas to unleash the power of the helm.

so Jailer made a deal with Sylvanas, she was building up her Death Powers, until she would be able to beat Bolvar and shatter the helm

[Rhlor]

the lore of shadowlands seems very boring to me so far, just a couple of cool things like seeing kelthuzad again but no more

[darkoms]

these are the parts in chronicle in question. as you can see, its said multipletimes that the last remnants of the titans spirits (!) fused with their keepers. the keepers got some of their memories etc, but the titans own personalities vanished.
yet in legion, the titans full and intact spirits are suddenly in the hands of the legion. thats just not what was said in chronicles.

Is it because the Chronicles do not affect the Legion? The Titans most likely recovered their identities when their spirits were ripped from the Keepers.

Although it remains unexplained so far how Sargeras obtained the Pantheon's souls, there are a few possibilities. When asked about it, Jeremy Feasel pointed out that the Burning Legion attacked Ulduar during the course of World of Warcraft: Legion, and that while we were "enjoying Legion Assaults we certainly weren't in Pandaria or Uldum".[43]
It is thus possible that when the Legion attacked Ulduar and kidnapped the titan keeper Hodir, they could have removed Golganneth's soul from him.
The Legion attacked Pandaria twice, in both Kun-Lai Summit and the Jade Forest. Uldum is also where Ra installed the Forge of Origination. It could be that the Legion was trying to track Aman'Thul's essence down.
Aggramar, Khaz'goroth and Norgannon's souls may have been released when their respective keepers died. They then might have been collected by the Legion.
It is also possible that the titans, feeling that they could not possess the Keepers, left them and went into hiding in their respective sanctuaries as Eonar mentions in Elunaria. A fragment of their souls would be left behind, which is what Ra found and extirped from his body.

[Houle]

Is it because the Chronicles do not affect the Legion? The Titans most likely recovered their identities when their spirits were ripped from the Keepers.

Although it remains unexplained so far how Sargeras obtained the Pantheon's souls, there are a few possibilities. When asked about it, Jeremy Feasel pointed out that the Burning Legion attacked Ulduar during the course of World of Warcraft: Legion, and that while we were "enjoying Legion Assaults we certainly weren't in Pandaria or Uldum".[43]
It is thus possible that when the Legion attacked Ulduar and kidnapped the titan keeper Hodir, they could have removed Golganneth's soul from him.
The Legion attacked Pandaria twice, in both Kun-Lai Summit and the Jade Forest. Uldum is also where Ra installed the Forge of Origination. It could be that the Legion was trying to track Aman'Thul's essence down.
Aggramar, Khaz'goroth and Norgannon's souls may have been released when their respective keepers died. They then might have been collected by the Legion.
It is also possible that the titans, feeling that they could not possess the Keepers, left them and went into hiding in their respective sanctuaries as Eonar mentions in Elunaria. A fragment of their souls would be left behind, which is what Ra found and extirped from his body.

i mean, all thats all fair enough and its an explanation. BUUUUUUT

none of that was said anywhere.

you just explained how it most likely happened it, but you obviously put more thought into this than blizz did. bc otherwise they would have implied or shown this. the titans actually surviving, and the legion capturing them is an incredibly important plot line. it wouldve, and frankly, SHOULDVE been shown during legion. it shows that blizz paid no heed to it when writing the legion.
oh and i completely forgot about eonar. how she even ended up in elunaria is also completely random, considering she was no different than the other titans, slamming into her keeper with her personality disappearing/"dying"

edit: oh and i just checked. it was said eonar was hiding on elunaria for millennia. for fckn MILLENNIA lmao. that doesnt really match with the titan spirit remnants all coming to azeroth and fusing with her keepers now
here, her dungeon journal:

Though she was felled by the blade of Sargeras, the Life-Binder's essence escaped the grasp of the Dark Titan. After millennia spent hiding in isolation, Eonar's sanctuary has been discovered by the Legion.

Should her soul fall into the enemy's hands, Eonar's powers of nature and growth will be perverted to make the Burning Crusade unstoppable.

the whole point of what happened in chronicles was that the titans needed the keepers bodies, otherwise their spirits would disappear. and when they finally reached them, they were to weak. they gave the keepers some power, some memories and then disappeared. but somehow eonar spend millenia in hiding on elunaria, without a body or anything.

[darkoms]

i mean, all thats all fair enough and its an explanation. BUUUUUUT

none of that was said anywhere.

you just explained how it most likely happened it, but you obviously put more thought into this than blizz did. bc otherwise they would have implied or shown this. the titans actually surviving, and the legion capturing them is an incredibly important plot line. it wouldve, and frankly, SHOULDVE been shown during legion. it shows that blizz paid no heed to it when writing the legion.
oh and i completely forgot about eonar. how she even ended up in elunaria is also completely random, considering she was no different than the other titans, slamming into her keeper with her personality disappearing/"dying"

edit: oh and i just checked. it was said eonar was hiding on elunaria for millennia. for fckn MILLENNIA lmao. that doesnt really match with the titan spirit remnants all coming to azeroth and fusing with her keepers now
here, her dungeon journal:

I didn't think about it any more than Blizzard (well, maybe a little). I gave you the answer that Jeremy Feasel gave. As for Eonar, this is also very interesting because Freya and Ra are the only living keepers who are absent from Legion. While Ra may still be in his depression caused by Aman'Thul's death, Freya's absence is less explainable and has never been commented on, even after the Burning Legion attacked Ulduar twice.
In fact, the story with Amantul is no less interesting because we have no idea what happened to his soul. Was it released after Lei Shen's death? Or did it remain on Azeroth after his death? Did get Wrathion Aman'thul's soul when he ate Lei Shen's heart, or did he only get his memories?

[TheFirstOnes]

"Blizzard has cleverly avoided mentions of the Nathrezim in the art book, just providing us with revelations on the Helm of Domination and letting us fill in the blanks. Could ending the book on this note be a hint for future patch content, beyond the initial Shadowlands zones and Castle Nathria raid? We'd be very excited to explore the cosmic-wide deception further in a future patch, especially if the spirits of past Lich Kings like Arthas would return outside the influence of the Helm!"

lol get fucked sargeras

and every other cosmic plane in existence. the jailer and his guys fucked y'all

[Very rare pepe]

"Blizzard has cleverly avoided mentions of the Nathrezim in the art book, just providing us with revelations on the Helm of Domination and letting us fill in the blanks. Could ending the book on this note be a hint for future patch content, beyond the initial Shadowlands zones and Castle Nathria raid? We'd be very excited to explore the cosmic-wide deception further in a future patch, especially if the spirits of past Lich Kings like Arthas would return outside the influence of the Helm!"

lol get fucked sargeras

and every other cosmic plane in existence. the jailer and his guys fucked y'all

Would be an interesting twist to have the Jailer be on our side against in the battle of the cosmic forces, we all end up fighting for death against the light and the void.

[Houle]

"Blizzard has cleverly avoided mentions of the Nathrezim in the art book, just providing us with revelations on the Helm of Domination and letting us fill in the blanks. Could ending the book on this note be a hint for future patch content, beyond the initial Shadowlands zones and Castle Nathria raid? We'd be very excited to explore the cosmic-wide deception further in a future patch, especially if the spirits of past Lich Kings like Arthas would return outside the influence of the Helm!"

lol get fucked sargeras

and every other cosmic plane in existence. the jailer and his guys fucked y'all

*lol get fucked metzen

and every other old wc3 writer. danuser and his guys fucked y'all

[InfiniteCharger]

"Lore" is simply the convenient backstory created to prop up an expansion with no consistency or logic at this point.

Hence, we get the retcons of the demons using the scourge and necromancy to destroy life by subverting the flow of souls into the shadowlands. Now the Lich King isn't a creation of the Legion and the Shadow Council, he is a tool of the Jailer and all of the Legions use of necromancy came from death itself. And on and on. None of this is any sort of 'lore' as in historical facts that cant be altered. These are simply story and narrative choices that change per expansion.

Not to mention much of the new stuff contradicts itself outright. Why would the jailer as a being in charge of the worst souls be a criminal in its own right? Like what? And if this being was created in the beginning then that is before any crimes could exist as no creatures existed to commit crimes against. Not to mention this being was created in the realm of death to begin with, so when did this entity go to the "real world" to commit crimes? Given that this is a powerful being greater then the titans, why on earth would it need Sylvanas for anything? Like to do what? Her very existence goes against everything that death supposedly represents. It doesn't make sense any way you look at it. Especially when compared to the original narrative of the Legions simply being demons doing evil. And these evil creatures from the evil dimension of the twisted nether corrupted the Orcs and led them on a killing spree in Azeroth. And from that came the rise of Necromancy, the Scourge and the Lich King, all of which were against the natural flow of life and death. Straight forward and to the point. Now it is all over the place. Evil isn't evil, but just misunderstood, duped or misguided, death isn't death and works with the living against the natural flow and blah blah blah

[TheFirstOnes]

*lol get fucked metzen

and every other old wc3 writer. danuser and his guys fucked y'all

Remember when Metzen said that Sargeras was the "big, bad guy"? Damn, seems the Jailer, the Void Lords, and now maybe the First Ones are trampling all of that. RiP

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Would be an interesting twist to have the Jailer be on our side against in the battle of the cosmic forces, we all end up fighting for death against the light and the void.

Nah. He's just an evil guy, which imo is a nice change of pace regarding the Cosmic Powers and their war (Which is based on their nature, rather than morality). I kinda like that the Jailer is just this Satanic Death God with literally no sense of humanity at all. Like, he's just pure evil and chaos. I love it.

- - - Updated - - -

"Lore" is simply the convenient backstory created to prop up an expansion with no consistency or logic at this point.

Hence, we get the retcons of the demons using the scourge and necromancy to destroy life by subverting the flow of souls into the shadowlands. Now the Lich King isn't a creation of the Legion and the Shadow Council, he is a tool of the Jailer and all of the Legions use of necromancy came from death itself. And on and on. None of this is any sort of 'lore' as in historical facts that cant be altered. These are simply story and narrative choices that change per expansion.

Not to mention much of the new stuff contradicts itself outright. Why would the jailer as a being in charge of the worst souls be a criminal in its own right? Like what? And if this being was created in the beginning then that is before any crimes could exist as no creatures existed to commit crimes against. Not to mention this being was created in the realm of death to begin with, so when did this entity go to the "real world" to commit crimes? Given that this is a powerful being greater then the titans, why on earth would it need Sylvanas for anything? Like to do what? Her very existence goes against everything that death supposedly represents. It doesn't make sense any way you look at it. Especially when compared to the original narrative of the Legions simply being demons doing evil. And these evil creatures from the evil dimension of the twisted nether corrupted the Orcs and led them on a killing spree in Azeroth. And from that came the rise of Necromancy, the Scourge and the Lich King, all of which were against the natural flow of life and death. Straight forward and to the point. Now it is all over the place. Evil isn't evil, but just misunderstood, duped or misguided, death isn't death and works with the living against the natural flow and blah blah blah

Here's how I see it. The Lore is just used as a way for us Players to be given excuses to fight these cosmic power houses, and so on. Simple.

[UndedoKoleda]

Remember when Metzen said that Sargeras was the "big, bad guy"? Damn, seems the Jailer, the Void Lords, and now maybe the First Ones are trampling all of that. RiP

Jailer is nowhere near Sargeras in powerlevels or anything at all, really. We don't know anything about the first ones, maybe they are simple builders, not mighty warriors/magicians. The Void Lords are shaped to be stronger than him(at least on their plane), I'll give you that.

[TheFirstOnes]

Jailer is nowhere near Sargeras in powerlevels or anything at all, really. We don't know anything about the first ones, maybe they are simple builders, not mighty warriors/magicians. The Void Lords are shaped to be stronger than him(at least on their plane), I'll give you that.

Except the Jailer's literally being built up as someone that could destroy every Cosmic Plane if he's unleashed from the Maw. He's also older than Reality itself, is confirmed to be Titan++ Level by Ion, and Bolvar states that the Jailer's patience is going to be rewarded and that everything we've ever done would mean literally fuck all compared to the Jailer if unleashed.

The First Ones have been confirmed to have "shaped" the Cosmos. High chance they reign above the Cosmic Chart itself, which would make sense, considering they're connected to every Pantheon, etc. Also doesn't help that the Jailer seemed kind of afraid when we activated one of their relics.

And it's only natural for the Void Lords to be stronger than Sargeras and the Jailer. They're literally the Outer Gods put in WoW. The same way the Old Gods are just a copy paste of the Elder Gods in WoW.

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I know a lot of people don't like the idea of us being potentially stronger than Sargeras, but that's just how the natural power scaling of WoW works now.

[UndedoKoleda]

Except the Jailer's literally being built up as someone that could destroy every Cosmic Plane if he's unleashed from the Maw. He's also older than Reality itself, is confirmed to be Titan++ Level by Ion, and Bolvar states that the Jailer's patience is going to be rewarded and that everything we've ever done would mean literally fuck all compared to the Jailer if unleashed.

The First Ones have been confirmed to have "shaped" the Cosmos. High chance they reign above the Cosmic Chart itself, which would make sense, considering they're connected to every Pantheon, etc. Also doesn't help that the Jailer seemed kind of afraid when we activated one of their relics.

And it's only natural for the Void Lords to be stronger than Sargeras and the Jailer. They're literally the Outer Gods put in WoW. The same way the Old Gods are just a copy paste of the Elder Gods in WoW.

Unless there is new info, it was the Arbiter that was said to be ancient at Blizzcon, not the Jailer. Plus Titan++ doesn't mean anything in this context, as Sargeras was the strongest of the Pantheon(who are all Titan++... level) and he was further enhanced by Fel powers. Bolvar is not omnipotent so what he thinks means fuck all. Once upon a time Rhonin said that if an Old God get to its full power even Sargeras would beg for mercy. We know how that turned out... Sargeras literally could cleave entire planets apart. Jailer is just a tad taller humanoid, who hasn't really done anything of importance, as far as we know. All we know is that he is a schemer.

Before we know more about the First Ones, can't really say how powerful or not they really are.

EDIT:

I think Sargeras will remain the top dog when it comes to raw strength, Blizzard learned their lesson with him. It's just impossible for our player characters to fight an entity on that power level, that's why they took the "banishing" route with him in Legion. We could have never taken him in a open fight, I doubt they want to introduce other entities with the same "flaw".

[TheFirstOnes]

Unless there is new info, it was the Arbiter that was said to be ancient at Blizzcon, not the Jailer. Plus Titan++ doesn't mean anything in this context, as Sargeras was the strongest of the Pantheon(who are all Titan++... level) and he was further enhanced by Fel powers. Bolvar is not omnipotent so what he thinks means fuck all. Once upon a time Rhonin said that if an Old God get to its full power even Sargeras would beg for mercy. We know how that turned out... Sargeras literally could cleave entire planets apart. Jailer is just a tad taller humanoid, who hasn't really done anything of importance, as far as we know. All we know is that he is a schemer.

Before we know more about the First Ones, can't really say how powerful or not they really are.

"Unless there is new info, it was the Arbiter that was said to be ancient at Blizzcon, not the Jailer." There is. The Shadowlands Collector's edition confirmed that the Jailer is older than Reality itself. "Plus Titan++ doesn't mean anything in this context, as Sargeras was the strongest of the Pantheon(who are all Titan++... level) and he was further enhanced by Fel powers." No. They are Titan level. They just happened to be a select group of Titans that decided to bring order to the Cosmos. Sargeras would maybe be Titan++ level, but that's due to the fact that Fel is volatile to Arcane. Aggramar and Sargeras were mostly equal in their duel, to the point where both of their blades broke due to a cosmic clash.

"Bolvar is not omnipotent so what he thinks means fuck all." You're confusing Omnipotence with Omniscience. Either way, he himself saw through the Shadowlands, and has connections to the Jailer and the Maw with the Helm of Domnination. Why would we not trust him? He knows more about the Jailer than most of us do.

"Once upon a time Rhonin said that if an Old God get to its full power even Sargeras would beg for mercy. We know how that turned out... Sargeras literally could cleave entire planets apart." Destroying Planet's isn't a feat in Warcraft. In fact, with the empowerment of Sargeras' Magics + Death, Argus was going to destroy all of creation in a single spell. Hell, N'Zoth, the supposed "weakest" of the Old Gods (Which isn't actually the case in Ny'alotha, but whatever), was literally transcending dimensions and warping reality itself just to corrupt Azeroth's World Soul and claim creation for the Void.

"Jailer is just a tad taller humanoid, who hasn't really done anything of importance, as far as we know. All we know is that he is a schemer." Size doesn't matter in WoW, my dude. Also note that the Maldraxxus interview, the denizens of the Shadowlands, as well as the official Shadowlands site itself states that if the Jailer was unleashed, everything would get fucked. The consumption of all that Anima is probably a huge factor in the Jailer's massive power amplifications, as well.

"Before we know more about the First Ones, can't really say how powerful or not they really are." All we know is that they shaped the WoW Cosmos, and that they made Maldraxxus cause they wanted a defense mechanism for the Shadowlands. I'd say that's pretty powerful.

[UndedoKoleda]

Still, Jailer hasn't done anything other than scheming, so I can't see why would anyone think that he is stronger than one of the strongest entities in the universe. It's pretty obvious that this expansion is a side-step from the main story of the real universal powers. There were people from Azeroth in the Army of Light, that fought for thousand(s) years, yet they only acknowledge Void and the Legion as world-ending threats. Jailer doesn't seem to be on the radar of those forces. We are talking about forces that destroyed/subjugated countless worlds, the Jailer hasn't even got the Shadowlands under control for all the time he has been there. Hell, most of the Shadowlands don't even know that he is "on the move", they are just not bothered with him. He is regional threat, not universal. Not more than the Old Gods, anyway.

And where does it say that the "Jailer is older than reality itself"? Can't find any info on that. That doesn't even make any sense. If there was "no reality" whos dead spirits would have gone to the Shadowlands? Shadowlands has to be created after the world was ordered, as place for mortal souls to go after death.

[masterjc]

I didn't think about it any more than Blizzard (well, maybe a little). I gave you the answer that Jeremy Feasel gave. As for Eonar, this is also very interesting because Freya and Ra are the only living keepers who are absent from Legion. While Ra may still be in his depression caused by Aman'Thul's death, Freya's absence is less explainable and has never been commented on, even after the Burning Legion attacked Ulduar twice.
In fact, the story with Amantul is no less interesting because we have no idea what happened to his soul. Was it released after Lei Shen's death? Or did it remain on Azeroth after his death? Did get Wrathion Aman'thul's soul when he ate Lei Shen's heart, or did he only get his memories?

Ra is back in 8.3 patch of BfA
he leads Rajani, and later is recruited to Heart of Chambers. N'zoth's forces attack Heart, and Ra sacrifices himself to stop attack and enters portal. later he is found as corrupted servant of N'zoth and adventurers kill him

[TheFirstOnes]

Still, Jailer hasn't done anything other than scheming, so I can't see why would anyone think that he is stronger than one of the strongest entities in the universe. It's pretty obvious that this expansion is a side-step from the main story of the real universal powers. There were people from Azeroth in the Army of Light, that fought for thousand(s) years, yet they only acknowledge Void and the Legion as world-ending threats. Jailer doesn't seem to be on the radar of those forces. We are talking about forces that destroyed/subjugated countless worlds, the Jailer hasn't even got the Shadowlands under control for all the time he has been there. Hell, most of the Shadowlands don't even know that he is "on the move", they are just not bothered with him. He is regional threat, not universal. Not more than the Old Gods, anyway.

And where does it say that the "Jailer is older than reality itself"? Can't find any info on that. That doesn't even make any sense. If there was "no reality" whos dead spirits would have gone to the Shadowlands? Shadowlands has to be created after the world was ordered, as place for mortal souls to go after death.

He's not regional at all. He's a clear Cosmic threat. He's only not on the radar cause he and the Dreadlords made it so that everyone would focus on the Void threat, while the Jailer would go on scheming. It's the perfect plot. This is the scan where it states that the Jailer is "an evil older than reality itself".

[darkoms]

Except the Jailer's literally being built up as someone that could destroy every Cosmic Plane if he's unleashed from the Maw. He's also older than Reality itself, is confirmed to be Titan++ Level by Ion, and Bolvar states that the Jailer's patience is going to be rewarded and that everything we've ever done would mean literally fuck all compared to the Jailer if unleashed.

The First Ones have been confirmed to have "shaped" the Cosmos. High chance they reign above the Cosmic Chart itself, which would make sense, considering they're connected to every Pantheon, etc. Also doesn't help that the Jailer seemed kind of afraid when we activated one of their relics.

And it's only natural for the Void Lords to be stronger than Sargeras and the Jailer. They're literally the Outer Gods put in WoW. The same way the Old Gods are just a copy paste of the Elder Gods in WoW.

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I know a lot of people don't like the idea of us being potentially stronger than Sargeras, but that's just how the natural power scaling of WoW works now.

How tired I am of seeing this stupid nonsense about Titan ++...

[TheFirstOnes]

How tired I am of seeing this stupid nonsense about Titan ++...

Why are you tired of something Ion literally stated in his own words?