What's the scolding horde players get at the start of the Ardenweald's covenant?

[Aresk]

Gotta love all these Horde only questlines where Alliance is actually proactive.

@VladlTutushkin
Well said. I left retail when classic came out and haven't looked back. The sheer insult of how they're trying to portray Tyrande as evil for wanting justice for yet another Horde genocidal rampage was just too much, on top of how bad the gameplay has become.

To be fair, Horde gets that treatment in BfA. The Horde leads two large-scale assaults on Kul Tiras before the Alliance lead their first on Dazar'alor. Brennadam was besieged by airships, and Anglepoint Wharf was attacked by a Horde Fleet. Horde see neither of that. Alliance then attack their staging point, which becomes a raid, and so Alliance gets all the hostile visibility. (I find it interesting when I find Horde players claiming Theramore was valid because of its role as a staging point and Dazar'alor, serving the same function, isn't.)

Also, I never got the sense that Tyrande was "evil," just uncompromising.

As far as I know, it was actually Warsong clan who started all the conflict in Ashenvale. They started with deforesting of the forest even when Thrall did not wish them to do it, but he lacked the balls to order them, So they went all LOK'TAR OGAR, basically pissing elves and giving them another reason to join the Alliance.

Thrall literally ordered them to Ashenvale to gather lumber because the Warsong wouldn't avoid fighting the Alliance otherwise. I don't see how you can claim that Thrall didn't wish them to harvest Ashenvale's forests when they were the ones following his orders. Admittedly, Thrall didn't know about the Night Elves at the time, but given that the Warsong were already seeking blood in the Barrens, he had to expect that they'd attack any natives they found.

Edit: Accidentally said Angler's Wharf when I meant Anglepoint Wharf.

[Vaedan]

Thrall literally ordered them to Ashenvale to gather lumber because the Warsong wouldn't avoid fighting the Alliance otherwise. I don't see how you can claim that Thrall didn't wish them to harvest Ashenvale's forests when they were the ones following his orders. Admittedly, Thrall didn't know about the Night Elves at the time, but given that the Warsong were already seeking blood in the Barrens, he had to expect that they'd attack any natives they found.

I guess you are talking about WC3 events, right? I was talking about period of time between WC3 and WoW. It is specificaly noted in official description of WSG that Warsong remained in Ashenvale against Thrall's wishes.

[Aresk]

I guess you are talking about WC3 events, right? I was talking about period of time between WC3 and WoW. It is specificaly noted in official description of WSG that Warsong remained in Ashenvale against Thrall's wishes.

Ah, my bad. I thought you were talking about the initial confrontation between the Warsong and the Sentinels. Yeah, I was referring to WC3.

[Feanoro]

Word twisting, cherry picking, insulting others in lieu of actual arguments

Do you get paid to be the Horde's PR director, or you do just sling bullshit for fun?

To be fair, Horde gets that treatment in BfA. The Horde leads two large-scale assaults on Kul Tiras before the Alliance lead their first on Dazar'alor. Brennadam was besieged by airships, and Anglepoint Wharf was attacked by a Horde Fleet. Horde see neither of that.

Apparently, Blizz thought they somehow hadn't sold "genocidal monsters who target civilians" hard enough with Teldrassil? Neither of those is the Alliance being proactive though.

Alliance then attack their staging point, which becomes a raid, and so Alliance gets all the hostile visibility.

Reacting to the Horde again. This time it's patently to give the Horde players some reason to want to fight the Alliance (you know, for the sane WC3 fans).

(I find it interesting when I find Horde players claiming Theramore was valid because of its role as a staging point and Dazar'alor, serving the same function, isn't.)

If you're not used to Hordie hypocrisy, you haven't been on this subforum long enough.

Also, I never got the sense that Tyrande was "evil," just uncompromising.

They're all but stating it, especially with The Golden Child proclaiming she's "consumed by vengeance" and clutching his pearls that she'll go too far.

[Soon-TM]

I also think varian is totally justified in how he feels about the orcs hell even in wanting them all dead. But that doesn’t change that he was a raging racist from classic-mop or that garrosh has a right to look poorly on him for that racism. They are both completely in the right.

See, this is far more morally grey and actually nuanced than anything in MoP 2.0 BfA.

[MikeBogina]

And what bleeding right did HE have to be upset about the declaration of war?

Varian declared war after seeing what disgusting things went on in the Undercity, performed by Horde members. You folks always pretend like he was wrong to declare it, but he literally stepped in a slaughterhouse very much like the places used by the Scourge only a few years back and now in Northrend.

Of course he wants to wipe them out and since the Horde is sheltering these evil butchers, they have to go too. If Thrall had paid a little more attention to whom he is inviting into his club, that would not have happened.

This logic, it's just so bad and sadly reflects the majority of Alliance players on here.

Your perception of the other faction is evil, so they must be "wiped out", but when they retaliate in kind, that's proof that they're evil... You're literally creating the enemy.
No matter how justified you think you are, you have no right to cry foul when you started the fight. That's just idiotic.

Nope, don't see it. if you want to be precise then the conflict started at the Wrathgate with Horde members murdering Alliance and their own in cold blood. It doesn't even matter if it was Putress alone or on Sylvanas orders. Putress as member of the Horde attacked the Alliance. That alone is enough to justify the war, but it stayed relatively calm between the factions, because Thrall and Varian (thanks to Jaina) were reasonable.

Someone who attacked both Horde and Alliance and immediately did a coup in the Undercity and joined the Burning Legion... Remember that time the Prince of Lordaeron, the seat of the Alliance... invaded Quel'thalas and murdered 90% of the population? With your logic, the Alliance is responsible for that.

Also relatively calm? Varian tried to kill Thrall, Thrall was the only reasonable person willing to work with the Alliance.

Then Garrosh got into power and suddenly we were in a full-blown war with several fronts. Are you telling me this is not connected, that Garrosh did not do his best to heat up the conflict so he could be a big conquerer like daddy?

And here we go again with the lies which then leads back to justification.
Alliance declared war on the Horde, Alliance attacked Horde first in Cataclysm, literally Alliance forces invading Durotar a starting zone. Alliance forces also tried to kill Thrall at sea... WHILE HE WAS ON HIS WAY TO SAVE THE WORLD.
Do you have a problem remembering things or are you a newer player? The Alliance started the war, the Alliance attacked and invaded the Horde first in Cataclysm. We can go over all of it if you want, but fact is fact(they dont care about your alliance feelings)
Now lets skip to the usual part where once proven wrong, you start to use the logic that the Alliance was in the right to "wipe out" another faction, but that other faction wasn't in the right to fight back

Wait, I thought it was started by Genn in Stormheim? Or was it Jaina in Dalaran? Or maybe it was Garithos in WC3? Sorry hard to follow the headcannon when it switches around every day.
The 4th war was started by Sylvanas to fullfill her goals, that is a fact. This much you should have gathered by now.

irony of you mentioning all the Alliance attacks on the Horde/races is funny.

4th war, unless Blizzard canonized the names, usually refers to the war Varian started in WotLK, that took effect in Cataclysm and ended at the Siege of Orgrimmar. You can even look up the wiki page for that war and it does say "This conflict is thematically the Fourth War."
Ohh and you're finally talking about facts, but you included the Alliance attacking the Horde in Stormheim, so regardless of what Sylvanas' true motives were, the Alliance attacked the Horde first giving Sylvanas justification in declaring war. And no, these weren't secretly Old God or Legion minions, this was the guy who sits next to the High King who did this.

[Feanoro]

headcanon

Yes yes, the Horde was out picking daisies and the mean ol' Alliance attacked them for no reason. Cool how you ignored everything @Raisei said to push your narrative.

4th war, unless Blizzard canonized the names, usually refers to the war Varian started in WotLK, that took effect in Cataclysm and ended at the Siege of Orgrimmar. You can even look up the wiki page for that war and it does say "This conflict is thematically the Fourth War."

Blizzard has canonized BfA as the Fourth War, there's even achievements for it. They skipped over Cata/MoP because it would point out that BfA was MoP 2.0.

Ohh and you're finally talking about facts

Amazing how only events which provide Horde talking points are facts.

[Ardenaso]

Blizzard has canonized BfA as the Fourth War, there's even achievements for it. They skipped over Cata/MoP because it would point out that BfA was MoP 2.0.

I'm thinking that BFA would be a continuation of Cata/MoP and not a clone given that there was only a small truce at the end of MoP and then the Alliance and Horde fought again in Ashran

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Blizzard has canonized BfA as the Fourth War, there's even achievements for it. They skipped over Cata/MoP because it would point out that BfA was MoP 2.0.

I'm thinking that BFA would be a continuation of Cata/MoP and not a clone given that there was only a small truce at the end of MoP and then the Alliance and Horde fought again in Ashran

[Yarathir]

Wait, wait, wait. Tyrande is not happy to have to work with the Horde?

That DAMNABLE WITCH. She's gone mad I tell you. She needs to be killed and is probably a Dreadlord.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Yes yes, the Horde was out picking daisies and the mean ol' Alliance attacked them for no reason. Cool how you ignored everything @Raisei said to push your narrative.

I mean in a sense they kinda were picking daisies as one of the first (Mabye the first) places they attack Is Mulgore which is why it has a giant wall after the shattering.

For all of the hordes Past it’s rather hard to find any reason to attack there most peaceful people but the alliance did it any way While ignoring the forsaken completely while they expand into actual alliance lands. You would think if it was actually because of the forsaken they would have the toughest front but instead they were free to expand with remarkably sparse opposition.

[Yarathir]

One thing that irks me about Blizzard is that so much of the Horde's hatred and driving force is built on grudges from the past.

But then a genocide happens a year or so ago, if that, and Blizzard's like "Alright, time for people to move on and accept it. We got a bigger bad to kill."

[NorthernDragon]

This thread has a worryingly high amount of unhealthy personal investment in a fictional faction conflict...

I'm not going to entertain the GOOD V EVIL angle as that was never the intention of factions when WoW was made. It's also why it's bad to force morality

[Soon-TM]

She's gone mad I tell you. She needs to be killed and is probably a Dreadlord.

Seeing as how anyone who opposes Anduin ends up being made to "see their error", or dropped the villain bat on their head, it looks quite likely. Maybe she will be possessed by some Void BS or something

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I'm not going to entertain the GOOD V EVIL angle as that was never the intention of factions when WoW was made. It's also why it's bad to force morality

Maybe that was true back in Vanilla/WotLK, but since then the Horde has been, time and again, depicted as the crazy, bloodthirsty warmongers who attack poor Alliance for no reason whatsoever

And the current writing team LOVES morality lessons. Especially Golden, most of her books are written in such a preachy tone that you can't help but to cringe.

[MikeBogina]

Yes yes, the Horde was out picking daisies and the mean ol' Alliance attacked them for no reason. Cool how you ignored everything @Raisei said to push your narrative.

Because it was a strawman...

I dont care if the Alliance think they're justified in starting the war, only that the Alliance then cry when the horde fight back.

Amazing how only events which provide Horde talking points are facts.

Amazing how it was horde that we were talking about and Raisei had made numerous false claims about them.

[adcesamo]

I dont care if the Alliance think they're justified in starting the war, only that the Alliance then cry when the horde fight back.

except that what happens is exactly the opposite, the ally gets beaten up, never fights back, and when it talks about or try fighting back the horde cries and calls whoever wants revenge / justice a bygot consumed by hatred (see Jaina, Tyrande, Genn). How is the horde fighting back when most of the time they're the aggressors?

[VladlTutushkin]

I mean in a sense they kinda were picking daisies as one of the first (Mabye the first) places they attack Is Mulgore which is why it has a giant wall after the shattering.

For all of the hordes Past it’s rather hard to find any reason to attack there most peaceful people but the alliance did it any way While ignoring the forsaken completely while they expand into actual alliance lands. You would think if it was actually because of the forsaken they would have the toughest front but instead they were free to expand with remarkably sparse opposition.

Because forsaken supposed to be Kewl, Metul, Awesum, Totes Rad, Unstoppable Army of Death and Doom? Thats why they are not ALLOWED to lose. Thats why tauren, “cow hippies” got hit. Thats why night elfs who are only perceieved by writing team as “forest hippies” are hit all the time. They cant “blemish” edgy and “powerful” horde races with defeats or strong opposition.

[Mehrunes]

Do you get paid to be the Horde's PR director, or you do just sling bullshit for fun?

Yeah, pointing out that the burden of proof on your amazing claims like "Varian totally declared the war over Wrathgate, that's why Chronicle v3 says he didn't care about Horde's culpability in regards to the Wrathgate when declaring the war" lies on you (and that for some very mysterious reason you're always refusing to meet it) is totally such a lack of arguments on my part If you're going to blindly parrot what's said to you, make sure it at least makes sense. And, pray tell, what did I cherry-pick and what words did I twist there? Humor me.

I mean in a sense they kinda were picking daisies as one of the first (Mabye the first) places they attack Is Mulgore which is why it has a giant wall after the shattering.

For all of the hordes Past it’s rather hard to find any reason to attack there most peaceful people but the alliance did it any way While ignoring the forsaken completely while they expand into actual alliance lands. You would think if it was actually because of the forsaken they would have the toughest front but instead they were free to expand with remarkably sparse opposition.

If you think about it, excluding the locals of the regions the Forsaken expanded into, in Cata the Alliance picked more fights with Goblins than they did with the Forsaken.

except that what happens is exactly the opposite, the ally gets beaten up, never fights back, and when it talks about or try fighting back the horde cries and calls whoever wants revenge / justice a bygot consumed by hatred (see Jaina, Tyrande, Genn). How is the horde fighting back when most of the time they're the aggressors?

Except since Vanilla Alliance has been the aggressor way more often than the Horde.

Because forsaken supposed to be Kewl, Metul, Awesum, Totes Rad, Unstoppable Army of Death and Doom? Thats why they are not ALLOWED to lose. Thats why tauren, “cow hippies” got hit. Thats why night elfs who are only perceieved by writing team as “forest hippies” are hit all the time. They cant “blemish” edgy and “powerful” horde races with defeats or strong opposition.

The Forsaken lost multiple rounds of the tug of war in Gilneas and got defeated by a bunch of High Elves at Quel'Danil.

[MikeBogina]

except that what happens is exactly the opposite, the ally gets beaten up, never fights back, and when it talks about or try fighting back the horde cries and calls whoever wants revenge / justice a bygot consumed by hatred (see Jaina, Tyrande, Genn). How is the horde fighting back when most of the time they're the aggressors?

Ohh really? Can you maybe in detail lists some of these times for me?

[Feanoro]

Yeah, pointing out that the burden of proof on your amazing claims like "Varian totally declared the war over Wrathgate, that's why Chronicle v3 says he didn't care about Horde's culpability in regards to the Wrathgate when declaring the war" lies on you (and that for some very mysterious reason you're always refusing to meet it) is totally such a lack of arguments on my part If you're going to blindly parrot what's said to you, make sure it at least makes sense. And, pray tell, what did I cherry-pick and what words did I twist there? Humor me.

The statement being made is that Varian was willing to tentatively accept the Wrathgate wasn't on the Horde, fought through Undercity, saw the horrors there which only added to the motivations for war. He challenges Thrall, and refers to Sylvie as an evil witch and the Horde as a band of murderers and thieves. If you need that explicitly spelled out, you must have a damn hard time reading anything beyond academic papers.

Meanwhile, you twist it into this "Varian totally declared the war over Wrathgate" bullshit that NO ONE is claiming, but then you'd have to actually argue against something other than your own fantasies of what's said here.

Oh, page 173 also calls bullshit on your claim that Varian didn't care about the Wrathgate. I won't encourage piracy, but it's not hard to find Chronicles online for anyone to verify the following quote:

Both missions were successful. Varimathras and Putress paid the price for their treachery and were defeated.

But Varian was not satisfied. Still seething with rage, he marched to the Undercity's throne with blades drawn to confront Thrall. No matter who was truly responsible for the attack at the Wrath Gate, Varian Wrynn could not trust the Horde, and he believed the world would be a better place without it.

Good gracious me, would you look at that! It DOESN'T say the Wrath Gate didn't matter to Varian like you've been trying to claim. In fact, it says he was plenty pissed about it! Since you have to defend the Corpse Bride's honor, you distort what everyone says into a strawman that war was declared over the Wrath Gate, then berate people over your bullshit strawman, and have the unmitigated gall to accuse others of lying.

Oh, and for a freebie, another quote from the same page:

Sylvanas's Role at the Wrath Gate

Like most good lies, Sylvanas Windrunner's account of the rebellion in the Undercity contained some truth. Grand Apothecary Putress truly had attempted to overthrow her, and Varimathras truly was trying to claim the Forsaken in the name of the Burning Legion.

But the plague had been created at her direction. Sylvanas was willing to take vengeance against the Lich King at almost any cost, even by making a weapon as deadly as the plague. Whether she was aware that Putress and Varimathras were planning to use the concoction remained a mystery. Rumors persisted that she knew about the attack at the Wrath Gate beforehand, and her denials did not assuage the doubts of her detractors.

As Warchief with the power of life and death over every member of the Horde, Thrall had both the power and responsibility to know what the people bearing his banner were up to. We'll skip the word games about him knowing every peon's latest bowel movement and similar deflections, if you don't mind. The plague was not some casual garage weekend project, it was one of the central efforts of the Forsaken. Thrall either knew about it and did nothing, making him complicit, or did not know and was therefore incompetent. In either case, the Horde is responsible for the plague.

Alliance lives were lost to that plague at the Wrath Gate, and you seriously want to claim that it had absolutely no bearing on the declaration of war? Then I suggest you stick to academic papers which don't employ nuance, context, and other writing techniques. If you insist on continuing to read fiction, Dick and Jane might be about your speed.

[Darth-Piekus]

Feanoro I think you might be losing your time arguing about established facts. Some people don't want to admit that despite what Blizzard says about Grey Wars and things they have created the Horde as a clear Black Aggressor especially in BFA and the Alliance as a White Reactor that reacts to something the Horde will do. It doesn't matter how people will try and twist it. The moment the Orcish Horde willingly drank the Blood and came to Azeroth to slaughter everyone they became the aggressors and the Alliance was created to combat the Horde despite the bullshit Lorthemar said after the Purge of Dalaran. That is the idiocy with Blizzard. They are creating by mistakes lore points that are clashing with previous facts giving some people leverage to use as strawmen.