I can't be the only one predicting a permanent level 60 cap

[Nenavn]

I feel like, instead, they will allow Timewalking Campaigns to carry you all the way to level 60 in patch 10.0

[Chromell]

I feel like, instead, they will allow Timewalking Campaigns to carry you all the way to level 60 in patch 10.0

That is a likely change.

[Collected]

I feel like, instead, they will allow Timewalking Campaigns to carry you all the way to level 60 in patch 10.0

To me that's a bit like taking the time to tidy your kitchen and then immediately leaving empty pizza boxes out the following day. Adding more levels to the game slowly takes it back to the mess it was in prior to 9.0. Too many levels spread across too much content. 50 levels is the sweet spot. So many players have supported the new levelling experience. They're not going to go back to their old ways.

[InfiniteCharger]

The problem isn't the "levels" it is coming up with a consistent power progression system that works across multiple expansions.
Historically Leveling is where your base stats minus any armor or other attributes get calculated. Each level adds a % to hp, spell power and other base stats. Each level also historically determined which spells or how many talents you could access.

But even beyond all of that, levels also determined what gear you equip and what quests you could access and so forth. So removing leveling would mean a complete overhaul of most of the game systems in order for a new progression system to work. How would you increase a character base stats if there are no longer levels? How would you set prerequisites for gear and quests if levels are maxed out?

A lot of things would have to be addressed before it would have any chance of working.

[Sativ]

We've been on borrowed power for years & levels have been completely meaningless.

[Garymorilix]

It would be a very elegant solution actuallyand pretty smart to just convert everyone above 50 back to 50 and the new expac would always be 50-60.

Also convert the latest expansion to the "core leveling" to new players (like BfA is now).
Everything else can be accessed by Chromie time.

It is set up perfectly and there is literally no drawback. They could cut future development required for another squish and numbers would never get too high again.

[baskev]

I don't think I've seen this discussion hashed out since the leveling revamp was announced, and that surprises me.

So... I don't know where I got the impression, but it's in my head from somewhere that Ion Hazzikostas was put where he is partially to future proof WoW for the perpetuity that, really, they never expected for this game, once and for all. Whether that's his doing or not is debatable, but it's absolutely a thing that's happening.

As much as he claims not to want things to get too formulaic, you can see these efforts here and there: Flight/Pathfinder is an expected formula now, the patch cycle is relatively standardized with some wiggle room, legacy loot is a hard coded and necessary promise for those playing the transmog long game, and our expectations between main patches and "point five" patches have formed a straight line that has us anticipating timewalking right on time each expansion.

So let's look at the leveling overhaul in this vein.

You have your starting area bracket, your "legacy content" bracket, your "immediately prior expansion" designation for a smooth transition for new players being told a flowing story, and then your 10 levels for the current expansion. Pathfinder becomes something you do at the X.2 mark if you wanna fly in current content while it's current, and that achievement becomes of lesser import by the time that content goes legacy if not in the immediately following expansion. That's all very neat, tidy and as soon as we live through it once, going from 60 to 50 to climb it again, it's precedent.

...And it potentially happens again, every two years, as everything slots into its new place on the climb from 1-60. On schedule. Forever. Or as long as the game keeps going anyway.

It's so elegant it seems a sure bet at this point. How the hell does a "level 60-70" 10.0 even fit into this? It doesn't. We'll be 50 again for 10.0, Shadowlands will be the non-optional 10-50 game for new people, and BFA goes fully into the legacy pool of leveling options for veterans.

That's gotta be how this is going, right?

Right?

To be clear, I'm not complaining, but I haven't seen this accepted communally, this... nigh inevitability I'm seeing unfolding here.

Nope you can not be the only one.

But i think if the game goes on for a other 15 years they will do a squish again. But keeping it at level 60? nope, i think they might go like this:

60>70>80> squish...maybe to a 100. but +100 will not happen again i think

[Binaris]

I would say you are already wrong. The current cap is 50.

[Magnificent Madmartegan]

I'd honestly rather see a "Paragon" system come in. Example would be next expansion would be ten "levels" You get say on every even level somewhere between 5-7 points to spend on slight upgrades to specific spells. Every odd level you'd get 3-5 points to spend on base line stats, maybe throw a level in there where you can buff professions as well. Lets say on the "fifth" level you get points to spend on professions. They give boons like chances at blue-epic gear procs are increased or maybe it takes less mats to craft, etc. Specific spells could be something like a Improved Hamstring, as you put more points in it it does more damage/slows enemy more. If you max out the upgrade on it (6+ points) it makes it AoE where hamstring would hit every target you attack. Maybe have more points in a spell so that unless you put 50% or more of your points in a spell it actually takes a expansion or two to hit that max level. Otherwise people are going to be maxing out spells like crazy and then balancing really becomes a issue...

[Eurhetemec]

-The 60 cap is staying.

Maybe. I could see them capping it at 60.

-Every pre-patch, anyone over 50 is reduced to 50.
-Any alt that gets to 50 (or was squashed from 120 to 50 with 9.0) and doesn’t get used that expansion, stays at 50 until they are dusted off for an expansion, after which they will be 50 again with the prepatch.

Repeat every two years (or every expansion, should they slow down). For as long as the game is developed. After which the servers basically stay up in maintenance mode until the sun explodes.

On the other hand, there is absolutely no possibility that they're going to reset us to 50 every expansion.

If they do a 60 cap, it will not be done like you're describing here. It wouldn't feel good to have it happen every expansion, it wouldn't make much sense, and it wouldn't fit with the goal they've stated of moving away from borrowed power.

I think the most likely scenario is that they do something to the side of that, as others have described. Next expansion, the cap goes up to 70. But we can level in any expansion, including SL (though the new player default may remain BfA for now). Leveling time remains the same for now - i.e. 1-50 takes the same time it does currently, as does 50-60. You can just do them wherever. If you "run out of road" you change expansion. Then it goes up to 80 and so on. Eventually they may give a buff to XP so you don't have to do like three expansions to reach cap.

(Minor point I do agree with - if they did do it your way, people who were 50 would stay 50 even if you left them for a couple of expansions as you say.)

Another fairly likely scenario is that this is the last expansion where we gain levels. I actually think it's more like whichever one we hit 80 in will be, but either way same difference. At some point, fairly soon, it's possible they'll stop adding linear levels and just go with some kind of Alternative Advancement system, which will probably be terrifyingly complicated.

I also think if they do keep adding levels, instead of borrowed power we'll see localized power. They threatened to do this with this expansion, and I think it's somewhat likely, that, in 10.0, they'll do what they threatened, and with the Shadowlands being re-sealed, the Covenant powers will only work in Shadowlands, just like your Garrison stuff only works in Draenor, and so on. Other expansions could do similar - instead of confiscating power entirely, they'll just limit where it works. But that's still a kind of borrowed power (albeit this would have to be a precursor to a true permanent system).

[MrLachyG]

I think they will keep the level cap at 60 but I hope they do it in a way that we don't lose power at the end of the expansion. so when the squish happens we keep our stats, and the stats on items are redistributed from 1-50.

[Unbeef]

The only way they will do that is if they create an alternate advancement system. So instead of levels the next expansion starts at level 60+Paragon 1-10. Basically creating new levels that are fundamentally the same but a different starting point. There is no reason why they can't do a level squish every 2-3 expansions. Levels have really been less important in the grand scheme of things and more a way to curate the experience through the new zones prior to End Game.

The could always just push us to 50 at pre-patch every Expansion.

[Eggroll]

I feel like, instead, they will allow Timewalking Campaigns to carry you all the way to level 60 in patch 10.0

Tbh, I would like that. Using Timewalking to play any past xpac as maxlevel content. Not the worst idea.

[Kithelle]

I don't know...no matter what they need to squish.

I mean even if we stay 60 the gear every expansion needs to go up in level...so eventually it's gonna need to be squished or we will see hundreds of thousands to millions of XP again

[shoc]

I think getting pushed down to level 50 at pre-patch of every expansion makes the most sense. That way, the current leveling system can continue to provide new options for leveling with the addition of new expansions and we re-level from 50-60 every expansion. No need to ever do a massive squish ever again.

[khazmodan]

Revisiting this topic now that I’ve experienced the squish first hand. We’re absolutely settling into a permanent 60 cap that squashes anyone over 50 back to 50 with every expansion prepatch.

Why am I so sure now? I just leveled through legion. The core story got me into the late 30’s. Scouring the map for quests barely got me to 50, and that’s with a handful of dungeons thrown in. If my new level 50 is ever squished back down to “need to level again to access the latest expansion,” even for a bit, there is almost nothing in his chosen timeline but dungeons with which to do it. Furthermore the very finality of leveling via timewalking with the forced ejection at 50 reinforces that this is a phase you use to get you ready for the current expansion then it’s over. There’s no going back.

-The 60 cap is staying.
-Every pre-patch, anyone over 50 is reduced to 50.
-Any alt that gets to 50 (or was squashed from 120 to 50 with 9.0) and doesn’t get used that expansion, stays at 50 until they are dusted off for an expansion, after which they will be 50 again with the prepatch.

Repeat every two years (or every expansion, should they slow down). For as long as the game is developed. After which the servers basically stay up in maintenance mode until the sun explodes.

Calling it now. Again.

I think you are right IF there is some level of success while doing it in this expansion, but if shadowlands is another failure there could be another break glass attempt with something else. The problem is, what is left to do to stimulate the nostalgia for a better time in WoW?.

[Whitedragon]

Revisiting this topic now that I’ve experienced the squish first hand. We’re absolutely settling into a permanent 60 cap that squashes anyone over 50 back to 50 with every expansion prepatch.

Why am I so sure now? I just leveled through legion. The core story got me into the late 30’s. Scouring the map for quests barely got me to 50, and that’s with a handful of dungeons thrown in. If my new level 50 is ever squished back down to “need to level again to access the latest expansion,” even for a bit, there is almost nothing in his chosen timeline but dungeons with which to do it. Furthermore the very finality of leveling via timewalking with the forced ejection at 50 reinforces that this is a phase you use to get you ready for the current expansion then it’s over. There’s no going back.

-The 60 cap is staying.
-Every pre-patch, anyone over 50 is reduced to 50.
-Any alt that gets to 50 (or was squashed from 120 to 50 with 9.0) and doesn’t get used that expansion, stays at 50 until they are dusted off for an expansion, after which they will be 50 again with the prepatch.

Repeat every two years (or every expansion, should they slow down). For as long as the game is developed. After which the servers basically stay up in maintenance mode until the sun explodes.

Calling it now. Again.

This is my guess as well, It would go a long way in helping crate an easy entry into any one expansion. Didn't level a monk this expansion but you did last one? well with the new expansion everyone starts back at 50 so you aren't that far behind the curve when everything is set back to 50. it would also help with heirloom gear now we don't need to keep fiddling with it it just goes to 50.

That being said this system makes a whole lot of sense so there is a high chance of it not happening lol.

- - - Updated - - -

I think you are right IF there is some level of success while doing it in this expansion, but if shadowlands is another failure there could be another break glass attempt with something else. The problem is, what is left to do to stimulate the nostalgia for a better time in WoW?.

Drop the no flying BS

[WowIsDead64]

I don't think I've seen this discussion hashed out since the leveling revamp was announced, and that surprises me.

So... I don't know where I got the impression, but it's in my head from somewhere that Ion Hazzikostas was put where he is partially to future proof WoW for the perpetuity that, really, they never expected for this game, once and for all. Whether that's his doing or not is debatable, but it's absolutely a thing that's happening.

As much as he claims not to want things to get too formulaic, you can see these efforts here and there: Flight/Pathfinder is an expected formula now, the patch cycle is relatively standardized with some wiggle room, legacy loot is a hard coded and necessary promise for those playing the transmog long game, and our expectations between main patches and "point five" patches have formed a straight line that has us anticipating timewalking right on time each expansion.

So let's look at the leveling overhaul in this vein.

You have your starting area bracket, your "legacy content" bracket, your "immediately prior expansion" designation for a smooth transition for new players being told a flowing story, and then your 10 levels for the current expansion. Pathfinder becomes something you do at the X.2 mark if you wanna fly in current content while it's current, and that achievement becomes of lesser import by the time that content goes legacy if not in the immediately following expansion. That's all very neat, tidy and as soon as we live through it once, going from 60 to 50 to climb it again, it's precedent.

...And it potentially happens again, every two years, as everything slots into its new place on the climb from 1-60. On schedule. Forever. Or as long as the game keeps going anyway.

It's so elegant it seems a sure bet at this point. How the hell does a "level 60-70" 10.0 even fit into this? It doesn't. We'll be 50 again for 10.0, Shadowlands will be the non-optional 10-50 game for new people, and BFA goes fully into the legacy pool of leveling options for veterans.

That's gotta be how this is going, right?

Right?

To be clear, I'm not complaining, but I haven't seen this accepted communally, this... nigh inevitability I'm seeing unfolding here.

Overall, I don't like this idea. Why? Because when content goes to "legacy" mode, it's endgame is usually destroyed. I.e. it becomes leveling only. This is very bad. Because when I buy xpack, I want it to be mine permanently. I.e. I want to be able to replay it at any moment. I just hate that "limited time offer", we have now, when everybody, who wants to do endgame, is forced to buy new crappy xpacks. Only old xpack servers can fix this problem for me.

[Surfacin9]

Keep it the same bit without gaining levels. Instead, give us new talent rows, so we unlock powers, but power with choice and not covenant/essence/crap style system.

Basically the the old back in with some alterations. Give us power instead of level. We still grind experience but we remain levels 60. We can get stats increasing every 2 levels or so as well. But not too much, so we dont need more squishing anytime soon.

What you are describing are is the despised by many system of Legion Artifacts and BfA necklace. You grind experience in a form of AP, you gain power and you gain stats. And power with choice is exactly what azerite power and essences brought and now its covenants and soulbinds.

People seem to want max level progression beyond gear, but then compain about AP grind, while in fact its the same XP grind that you do while levelling, only at max level. If you want power associated with that kind of progression there will be people who will OCD the crap out of it and think that they have to farm every little bit to continue being powerful enough. If they implement a cap on that, those same people will reach it in the shortest possible time and then complain about having nothing to do. The weekly cap cap seems like a good logical choice, but then again you get whiners who want it over with as quickly as possible (while at the same time whining that they have so much to grind) and will be sure that it's done to keep MAUs. Any logical decision will get complaints, and the funniest thing is - it will be the same people complaining.

Personally I think they should remove levelling in the next expansions completely for current players. Once you reach 60, you're there, you're a god. Next expansion you do the required storylines mixed with heroic dungeons (remove normal dungeons already) and have their progression within the borrowed power system of the expansion. Or, hell, call it paragon levels of 60+ that reset every expansion if someone needs a bar to fill to justify playing the game.

New players will do the 1-10 in ER, then 11-50 in the previuos expansion and 51-60 in the new expansion. New characters of current players will do the same, but with a choice at 11-50, in the 51-60 bracket they will be getting levels in the new expac, while simultaneously progressing the borrowed power system, like you will be able to do with alts in SL.

Levelling a new character is fun, reaching new level cap on an old one is tedious and is completely unnecessary for the gameplay

[sykoex]

So classic wow characters will be higher level than retail characters when they release classic TBC and classic Wrath? Kind of ironic.