Warrior DPS horrible

[nocturnus]

If warrior dps is as horrible as people claim

It's not as horrible as "people claim", it's as horrible as all available data shows.

[Icoblablubb]

If anyone watched Asmon on his normal nathria raid on Tuesday, you'll know just how bad warriors are currently, Asmon is by no means a bad player and some would say is actually pretty good at playing his warrior. He could barely manage 3k DPS, while mcconnel (ret pally) was pushing closer to 6k, most of the MM hunters were doing just as much if not more.

So suffice to say warrior dps and tanking is broken currently. Sure they might improve with gear in 6 months or so but until then no one will be playing them.

if anything its the opposite .. asmon is by no means a good player and some would even say a terrible player anyone who has a tiny bit of an idea how to play warrior can clearly see that he just smashes whats rdy without any kind of prio while sure fury is proccs proccs but even they have a prio to what smash first

[Bigbazz]

if anything its the opposite .. asmon is by no means a good player and some would even say a terrible player anyone who has a tiny bit of an idea how to play warrior can clearly see that he just smashes whats rdy without any kind of prio while sure fury is proccs proccs but even they have a prio to what smash first

I haven't watched him play for some time so maybe he suddenly got bad but the guy gets Gladiator every season and has cleared endgame content many times, posted decently high logs. I think your idea of "terrible "player is lacking some relativity, he's probably a much better player than the vast majority of wow players. He does tend to come across as someone who doesn't spend a lot of time researching the details but if you have skill as a player you can learn knowledge and put it to use, if you're a poor player you can have all the knowledge in the world and still suck.

I think Asmon is probably very skilled (relative to the average player), but less invested in that side of the game and a little lazy. Can you really say that his less than optimal play is contributing that much difference? I've seen a lot of little clips of streamers playing Arms and I've not seen anyone pulling out exceptional numbers, and my own numbers feel depressing too.

Arms does rock hard on 2 targets though, but it falls flat on larger AOE and any sort of single target. Fury is another matter again, awful.

[Schattenlied]

Gotta admit, it's a bit annoying to sim 3.2k dps with enchants and everything and have pala's with blue pulling 3.6k

Are we talking Fury or Arms here? Because WCL shows Arms outperforming Ret on average in Nath.

[Roxinius]

i seriously regret leveling my warrior first fury feels good but you may aswell be swinging pool noodles arms just doesnt feel like a good spec at all its not fun to play and prot well its prot

[Velnora]

I haven't watched him play for some time so maybe he suddenly got bad but the guy gets Gladiator every season and has cleared endgame content many times, posted decently high logs. I think your idea of "terrible "player is lacking some relativity, he's probably a much better player than the vast majority of wow players. He does tend to come across as someone who doesn't spend a lot of time researching the details but if you have skill as a player you can learn knowledge and put it to use, if you're a poor player you can have all the knowledge in the world and still suck.

I think Asmon is probably very skilled (relative to the average player), but less invested in that side of the game and a little lazy. Can you really say that his less than optimal play is contributing that much difference? I've seen a lot of little clips of streamers playing Arms and I've not seen anyone pulling out exceptional numbers, and my own numbers feel depressing too.

Arms does rock hard on 2 targets though, but it falls flat on larger AOE and any sort of single target. Fury is another matter again, awful.

He gets a free carry to glad. Streamer privilege and all.

[Jastall]

I haven't watched him play for some time so maybe he suddenly got bad but the guy gets Gladiator every season and has cleared endgame content many times, posted decently high logs. I think your idea of "terrible "player is lacking some relativity, he's probably a much better player than the vast majority of wow players. He does tend to come across as someone who doesn't spend a lot of time researching the details but if you have skill as a player you can learn knowledge and put it to use, if you're a poor player you can have all the knowledge in the world and still suck.

I think Asmon is probably very skilled (relative to the average player), but less invested in that side of the game and a little lazy. Can you really say that his less than optimal play is contributing that much difference? I've seen a lot of little clips of streamers playing Arms and I've not seen anyone pulling out exceptional numbers, and my own numbers feel depressing too.

Arms does rock hard on 2 targets though, but it falls flat on larger AOE and any sort of single target. Fury is another matter again, awful.

He kinda gets carried to Glad, but regardless he's an above average (average meaning the raiding playerbase as a whole, not like top 10 parsers or whatever metric forumites use) player for sure. Arms is an... OK spec right now. It's not great, not terrible, you can use it in almost any content and do the job, as you said on 2 target cleave it's extremely powerful as usual but unfortunately Nathria doesn't have very many fights like that. At least it gets a spot in Limit's progression of Stone Legion.

Fury is awful in raids, no two ways about it. I still play it in my Normal/Heroic guild because who gives a fuck at this point, but it still needs a good 10% buff to be at least average. I've had Ok numbers in dungeons however, our cleave is pretty decent so there's a silver lining there. It's not an MDI tier spec by any means, but that is also because of the all-important utility gap between them and classes with brez, lust, skips and such.

[Skillslam]

I did Sanguin Depths for the first time tonight and wanted to just go afk in shame during the last boss since you can't Condemn her outside of Sudden Death

[Baconeggcheese]

i seriously regret leveling my warrior first fury feels good but you may aswell be swinging pool noodles arms just doesnt feel like a good spec at all its not fun to play and prot well its prot

I ended up rerolling enhancement, which reminds me a lot of fury. Maybe something to check out? Its not as simple as fury and there's a bit of unintuitive stuff going on but its similarly spammy.

I had no issue with arms though, feels good to play as well especially with condemn spamming shenanigans. We just had 3 warriors in our group, and there's really no reason to have more than 1 right now and I wasn't attached to that character.

Enhancements DPS is pretty neck and neck with arms but its at least bringing utility and windfury totem is nearly a 10% dps increase for warriors.

I honestly think its terrible that that exists at this point. Imagine just dealing 10% less damage because you don't have a specific spec in your group that really isn't a super desirable spec in the first place.

- - - Updated - - -

I did Sanguin Depths for the first time tonight and wanted to just go afk in shame during the last boss since you can't Condemn her outside of Sudden Death

Yeah that boss is the anti-arms boss. I started swapping to fury when I got to her.

[nocturnus]

Are we talking Fury or Arms here? Because WCL shows Arms outperforming Ret on average in Nath.

Why would you filter on all percentiles? Who cares about sucky people's statistics?

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/st.../26#dataset=90

[Nachtigal]

Why would you filter on all percentiles? Who cares about sucky people's statistics?

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/st.../26#dataset=90

Help me understand what I'm looking at here, what are these numbers? They (fury warriors) have a score of 74.90, what does that mean? How does someone achieve a score? Never cared to look at parsing, if the boss dies we're happy. I'd like to learn now, though.

[Shibito]

I haven't watched him play for some time so maybe he suddenly got bad but the guy gets Gladiator every season and has cleared endgame content many times, posted decently high logs. I think your idea of "terrible "player is lacking some relativity, he's probably a much better player than the vast majority of wow players. He does tend to come across as someone who doesn't spend a lot of time researching the details but if you have skill as a player you can learn knowledge and put it to use, if you're a poor player you can have all the knowledge in the world and still suck.

I think Asmon is probably very skilled (relative to the average player), but less invested in that side of the game and a little lazy. Can you really say that his less than optimal play is contributing that much difference? I've seen a lot of little clips of streamers playing Arms and I've not seen anyone pulling out exceptional numbers, and my own numbers feel depressing too.

Arms does rock hard on 2 targets though, but it falls flat on larger AOE and any sort of single target. Fury is another matter again, awful.

He gets carried by his fanboys

[Schattenlied]

Why would you filter on all percentiles? Who cares about sucky people's statistics?

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/st.../26#dataset=90

In that case, there is only a negligable "within margin of error" difference between Ret and Arms and you should feel silly for complaining about a Ret outDPSing you in blues, because, if that's what's happening on your end, you are one of the "sucky people" you mentioned, because he's just better than you.

Complain about a spec that is actually better, like UHDK, instead of making hyperbolic claims about Ret.

[nocturnus]

In that case, there is only a negligable "within margin of error" difference between Ret and Arms and you should feel silly for complaining about a Ret outDPSing you in blues, because, if that's what's happening on your end, you are one of the "sucky people" you mentioned, because he's just better than you.

Complain about a spec that is actually better, like UHDK, instead of making hyperbolic claims about Ret.

Maybe comprehensive reading is something you're not very familiar with, but I wasn't complaining about paladins specifically.

Warriors are in a bad spot (moreso before the patch). Paladins aren't in a great spot, but since you're mentioning it, yes they are factually better off than we are both as dps and tanks. Yes, "actually".

Gotta admit, it's a bit annoying to sim 3.2k dps with enchants and everything and have pala's with blue pulling 3.6k

Imagine the nuisance of being left in the dust by a class that's not at the top of the food chain. Imagine having to explain irony, geez dude grow a brain.

[Schattenlied]

Imagine the nuisance of being left in the dust by a class that's not at the top of the food chain.

Except you aren't... You are negligibly behind Ret, and the example situation you have given is literally not possible given how small the difference between the two is... If you need to grossly overexaggerate your example, then it's a bad example and you should feel bad for using it.

[nocturnus]

Except you aren't... You are negligibly behind Ret, and the example situation you have given is literally not possible given how small the difference between the two is... If you need to grossly overexaggerate your example, then it's a bad example and you should feel bad for using it.

Apparently English is hard.

Fine, dude.

[Schattenlied]

Apparently English is hard.

No, it's not, and your thinly veiled attempts at insulting me don't invalidate my point.

[nocturnus]

No, it's not, and your thinly veiled attempts at insulting me don't invalidate my point.

You don't have a point to begin with; warriors are in a bad state, period. The fact that you think paladins are in the same boat is A. factually incorrect, as show by all available data and B. utterly irrelevant. This 'negligible margin' you mention, is negligible to you. Fortunately, you or your opinion on the matter is of little importance when it comes to facts - something you evidently don't value.

Oh and "thinly veiled"? Oh my.

If you want to proceed discussing the state of paladins, go to the specific forum or send me a private message; let's not spoil this thread any longer with pointless bickering since we'll never reach any form of consensus anyway.

[Schattenlied]

The fact that you think paladins are in the same boat is A. factually incorrect, as show by all available data

Except the data that you yourself posted from WCL that shows Arms and Ret being neck and neck, with their difference being less than 0.3 in normalized scores as of the time of this post, and Ret actually being behind Arms (again, negligibly, a difference of less than 100 DPS) when aggregating via per-second amounts.

Furthermore when you swap over to M+ rankings, Arms jumps significantly ahead of Ret in both settings, and Ret is hanging out near the bottom of the list right alongside Fury.

So. Not factually incorrect at all... Your statements are the ones that are, in fact, factually incorrect.

B. utterly irrelevant.

You're the one who brought up Ret as being oh so much better than you that they could significantly outdps you in blues... Turns out that the data doesn't support your outlandish claims.

If this is irrelevant, then your outlandish claims of being outdpsed by Rets in blues is also irrelevant. All I set out to do here is prove that ridiculous claim false, and I have, with evidence that you brought to the thread.

This 'negligible margin' you mention, is negligible to you

Negligible to anyone who understands the data... An overall difference of less than 100 DPS (where Ret is actually behind) and a normalized difference of only 0.3 is not in any way significant.

facts - something you evidently don't value.

Evidence shows you are the one who doesn't value facts here... You are the one who provided this evidence, and it shows you are wrong, yet you deny it.

If you want to proceed discussing the state of paladins

I'm not discussing the state of Paladins, I'm discussing the state of Warrior DPS, using the competing class that you brought into the discussion as an example.

we'll never reach any form of consensus anyway.

Yes, it is indeed hard to come to a consensus when the one you are having a discussion with enters evidence into the discussion and then ignores said evidence when it turns out to actually prove their claims wrong.

[nocturnus]

Except the data that you yourself posted from WCL that shows Arms and Ret being neck and neck, with their difference being less than 0.3 in normalized scores as of the time of this post, and Ret actually being behind Arms (again, negligibly, a difference of less than 100 DPS) when aggregating via per-second amounts.
Furthermore when you swap over to M+ rankings, Arms jumps significantly ahead of Ret in both settings, and Ret is hanging out near the bottom of the list right alongside Fury.
So. Not factually incorrect at all... Your statements are the ones that are, in fact, factually incorrectou're the one who brought up Ret as being oh so much better than you that they could significantly outdps you in blues... Turns out that the data doesn't support your outlandish claims.
If this is irrelevant, then your outlandish claims of being outdpsed by Rets in blues is also irrelevant. All I set out to do here is prove that ridiculous claim false, and I have, with evidence that you brought to the thread.
Negligible to anyone who understands the data... An overall difference of less than 100 DPS (where Ret is actually behind) and a normalized difference of only 0.3 is not in any way significant.
Evidence shows you are the one who doesn't value facts here... You are the one who provided this evidence, and it shows you are wrong, yet you deny it.
I'm not discussing the state of Paladins, I'm discussing the state of Warrior DPS, using the competing class that you brought into the discussion as an example.
Yes, it is indeed hard to come to a consensus when the one you are having a discussion with enters evidence into the discussion and then ignores said evidence when it turns out to actually prove their claims wrong.

First of all, the example I provide what just that, an example and not a direct comparison between the two. More importantly, the post was made before the buff to warriors, which you would've seen if you weren't that primal in your reactions; this pedantic behavior obfuscates any form of reason. That's why we won't reach consensus; you're just too indignant and to be frank, you seem exasperated.

So again, your analysis, based on a comment made before the patch that allegedly puts warriors ahead of ret in certain situations is utterly irrelevant, besides being factually incorrect as showed before with actual data that doesn't include irrelevant percentiles.

Even now ret's ahead in both mythic as heroic raids and I don't care if you think the difference is negligible; your notion of what is trivial is about as important as navel lint.

Heroic:
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/st...0&difficulty=4
Mythic:
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/st.../26#dataset=90