If they made a new class in the future, what would it be?

[TheRevenantHero]

Taking what I said out of context doesn't disprove anything I said.



In your opinion.




Yes, because the purpose of those teams weren't to show a full on Tinker class, they're there to give you a hint of a future Tinker class. No different than the Pandaren Monk pet that showed up in WotLK.



Here, maybe a visual will help you out;

This;


Isn't the same as this;





We've already established that the claw pack is a mech, so I don't know where you're getting level 10 from. The Tinker uses the mech from the beginning.

As for Gazlowe, he piloted a mech on Durator during the Legion invasion, and he pilots a mech in Island Expeditions as part of the Greasemonkeys. As for the overwhelming majority of Tinkers not using mechs, before WotLK the overwhelming majority of Death Knights didn't have any DK abilities either, and before MoP the zero Monks didn't have any Brewmaster abilities and had nothing to do with Pandarens.

So yeah....

- - - Updated - - -



If a Tinker is inside a mech launching a missile at a target, how is that the same (from a LORE standpoint ) as a Warrior "engineer" tossing a stick of dynamite?

I love how you choose two COMPLETELY DIFFERENT ABILITIES. What's the difference between a tinker throwing a bomb they made and a warrior also throwing a bomb they made is a better question. And the answer is nothing.

[Unbelievable]

Tinkers don’t throw bombs. They command machines to launch them.

Again, someone throwing a bomb is not the same thing as pressing a button and launching a bomb while piloting a machine. It would be like saying someone carrying a missile and hurling it at a target is the same as a fight jet launching a missile at a target.

The Goblin's Rocket Barrage racial TCG card shows a Goblin employing a technical device to launch a rocket from his arm. In-game, it is not shown through the animation. A rocket is, simply, shot from the character. You, clearly, never heard about animation limitations.

Cluster Rocket being used by a cannon makes more sense because a person couldn't launch a volley of missiles on their own without the help of a machine. Which is why the Tinker uses the claw pack/mech as a delivery system for their weaponry. I don't know why you think it being attached to a cannon makes a difference. As for the engineering recipe, it's to create fire works, not a volley of missiles. This is yet another example of how you guys get the engineering joke items mixed up with Tinker abilities. I don't know if its you being purposely obtuse, or you not actually reading the tooltips.

Grav-O-bomb, Deth Lazor, Xplodium Charge, and Rock It Turret are all abilities from the HotS tinker. It doesn't matter what NPC is using them in Island Expeditions. The point is that you have actual Tinker abilities in WoW itself that do not exist in the profession, and are certainly not items.



Because neither are important enough to be placed in those class order halls.



You would call it a Tinker, since the majority of abilities and thematics come from the Tinker.



I'm not going to go through every single one of you examples because they all have the exact same problem.

The argument people like yourself use is that the items operate exactly the same as the abilities. So let's take a look at these two examples. On one hand you have the Rogue ability Crimson Vial, and on the other you have Spiritual Healing Potion from Alchemy. Let's look at the similarities and differences. If Spiritual Healing Potion is supposed to be some sort of replacement for Crimson Vial, then it should be equal to it and have far more similarities than differences;

Similarities:
+ Heals the caster

Differences:
+Cooldowns (5 minutes vs. 30 seconds)
+SHP is a consumable
+Crimson Vial is effected by Talents and stats.
+SHP requires mats to craft
+Crimson Vial's healing scales with level (based on max HP)
+ SHP has a cast time

So as you can see, they're not very similar. Again, I don't know if you're being obtuse here, or you're simply not reading the tooltip, but the two aren't similar at all. Hence the difference between an item and an ability.




The difference is that Altruis and Kayn had Illidan's Demon Hunter abilities. None of the Dark Rangers that Sylvanas raised from the dead had any Dark Ranger abilities like she did.

Here's the thing, if we accept that Nathanos is a Dark Ranger, then you have to accept that Dark Rangers are just Forsaken Hunters. Your personal desire to play as Sylvanas is irrelevant to that fact.

Of course a character, in-game, can shoot a volley of missiles without the help of a machine. It's a game, not real life. Currently, you can shoot a Rocket from your waist with Rocket BARRAGE (and let me highlight the word Barrage: "a concentrated artillery bombardment over a wide area".) game restrictions would suggest they didn't bother to represent it in-game and, instead, copy the Goblin Rocket trinket of Engineering as an animation. A person cannot, also, shoot a Goblin Rocket from their Gun/Bow/Crossbow with Explosive Shot, a Barrage of arrows from a Gun/Bow/Crossbow with Volley and launch a Trap with Trap Launcher, using a Gun/Bow/Crossbow. Clearly, these restrictions do not apply to a video game. Therefore, you don't see your character actually making the artillery before shooting it, or carrying it. They just, magically, pull it out of their asses. So, don't try to apply real-life logic into a video game, like a wise-guy.

By the way, Fireworks are, also, not shot from a Gun/Bow/Crossbow. They would require a launching device of sort. and yet, Hunter can launch them with no special animation or devices. Not to talk about Engineers who are not Hunters and do not carry a launching device yet, shoot fireworks out of their asses.

You talked about in-game abilities, not HoTS abilities. and yes, it does matter who uses them. If an NPC labeled as an Engineer uses them then, one would assume it is related to Engineering.

Oh, they are not important enough? Yet, Dark Rangers are? You, clearly, twist it the way you want it to...
You said, if they are in the class order hall, then they are part of the class. Therefore, if they are not there, according to your logic, they are not part of the class.

No. half of the abilities are from the Tinker and half are from the Alchemist. You would need to call it a Scientist, or something like that...

Never argued it operates, exactly, the same. You assume it so. You, also, expect it to operate, exactly, the same. That's not how things work. You asked for abilities and items that do the same thing. Technicalities, like scaling damage, cooldown or cast time, are irrelevant. To roleplay as a Tinker you need the Tinker fantasy, not the Tinker damage. meaning, if items can replicate the abilities of the Tinker then, that's all it requires. You do not know how much damage a Tinker class is supposed to do, what are the cooldowns and casting times, because the in-game abilities of NPCs do not reflect a how a class ability would work 1:1. That's why Bosses or NPCs, who posses similar abilities to those of our classes, do not match them by 100% in terms of damage, cooldown and other technicalities. Otherwise, a Death Knight ability would be as strong as Arthas' counterpart of that ability, a Demon Hunter ability would be as strong as Illidan's counterpart of that ability and so on...

The Alchemical potions of an Alchemist are not supposed to be a replacement to a Rogue's potion. You asked for similar abilities and items. I gave you them.

Oh, would you look at that:

Iron Stomach
Level 60 Outlaw rogue talent
Passive
Increases the healing you receive from Crimson Vial, healing potions, and healthstones by 30%.

Alchemist Stone
Item Level 30
Binds when picked up
Unique-Equipped
Trinket
+3 Strength
+3 Agility
+3 Intellect
+3 Stamina
+4 Versatility
Equip: Increases the effect that healing and mana potions have on the wearer by 40%. This effect does not stack.

other things that affected profession items. So, yes. They, also, scale.

Abilities used to require reagents. Not all items are consumable. At the end of the day, both are clickable icons that, either, activate on use, are randomly activated or passively buff you. That applies to all abilities, talents, profession items or borrowed power, like trinkets and legendary effects.

Altruis, back in The Burning Crusade, didn't have shit. He was a quest giver in Nagrand. Literally, every one of his abilities were added in Legion, with the addition of Demon Hunters. Kayn Sunfury didn't even exist in-game before Legion and the addition of Demon Hunters. Once again, showing you know nothing about lore.

Who put Sylvanas in charge of raising Dark Rangers? There were other Dark Rangers other than Sylvanas in Warcraft III. Nathanos himself died during the third war, and joined the forsaken, afterwards. You talk about her like she is some kind of a Lich King, raising Dark Rangers and bestowing them with her powers, like the Lich King does in the Death Knight starting zone.

Oh, none of them? are you sure? Well, let's have a look:

"Nathanos is explicitly referred to as a dark ranger in Before the Storm,[2] and in-game he displays typical dark ranger abilities like the summoning of skeleton minions and the usage of a special [Black Arrow]."

Dark Ranger Alina: Black Arrow — Curses an enemy, inflicting periodic Shadow damage over 8 sec. If the target dies while afflicted by Black Arrow, a Skeleton will be summoned from the target's corpse.

Wailing Arrow — A deafening banshee's wail erupts from the arrow's impact, inflicting Shadow damage and silencing nearby enemies.

Dark Ranger Anya: Black Arrow — Inflicts Shadow damage every 3 sec for 30 sec. If the target dies while afflicted, a skeleton will be summoned from their corpse.

Dark Ranger Clea: Black Arrow — Inflicts Shadow damage every 3 sec for 30 sec. If the target dies while afflicted, a skeleton will be summoned from their corpse.

Wailing Arrow — A deafening banshee's wail erupts from the arrow's impact, inflicting Shadow damage and silencing nearby enemies.

Dark Ranger Cyndia: Black Arrow — Inflicts Shadow damage every 3 sec for 30 sec. If the target dies while afflicted, a skeleton will be summoned from their corpse.

Dark Ranger Kalira: Black Arrow

Lenara: Black Arrow — Curses an enemy, inflicting periodic Shadow damage over 8 sec. If the target dies while afflicted by Black Arrow, a Skeleton will be summoned from the target's corpse.

Dark Ranger Lyana: Black Arrow — Curses an enemy, inflicting periodic Shadow damage over 8 sec. If the target dies while afflicted by Black Arrow, a Skeleton will be summoned from the target's corpse.

Dark Ranger Velonara: Black Arrow — Curses an enemy, inflicting periodic Shadow damage over 8 sec. If the target dies while afflicted by Black Arrow, a Skeleton will be summoned from the target's corpse.

Death Knight NPCs in-game, prior to Wrath of the Lich King, didn't have Arthas/Death Knight abilities from Warcraft III. They used a mix of Warlock and Warrior spells.

You probably have a short memory span, because it was you, a couple of posts ago, that stated, clearly, that Blizzard has a habit of not implementing all of the class abilities before the class is, actually, added to the game. Therefore, a Dark Ranger would not be 100% flashed out, in terms of abilities, through NPCs and, instead, take abilities from adjacent classes, like the Hunter, the same way Death Knights, prior to Wrath of the Lich King, took abilities from the Warlock and the Warrior. Or, does it not apply to Dark Rangers because it does not fit your narrative and your hatred towards them? That's what i would call double-standards.

Nathanos being a Dark Ranger does not make him, simply, a Forsaken Hunter. That's like saying that Lord Maldazzar, Baron Bloodbane, Duke Ragereaver and Lord Darkscythe are representatives of the Death Knight class, and because they use Warrior and Warlock abilities, a Death Knight is nothing more than a combination of these two.

My personal desire? That's a fact. if playable Death Knights are based on Arthas, and playable Demon Hunters are based on Illidan Stormrage, and playable Monks are based on Chen Stromstout then, playable Dark Rangers would be based on Sylvanas, not Nathanos Blightcaller. You're just too afraid to see it.

First of all, my logic isn't weak just because you disagree with it. When it comes to other classes, all of their specs have a theme. Your idea is disjointed and all three specs are WILDLY different. That simply doesn't work as a class. Dark Rangers are just Hunters with a couple of necromancy abilities. There is no way in hell they would work like Sylvanas because she is a 100% special case. No other dark ranger is a banshee. ONLY Sylvanas is. When it comes to Priestess of the Moon, ONLY Tyrande uses a glaive. No other NPC does. And when it comes to Sea Witch, we can't play Naga so that's out. Using major lore characters as a way for a class to work is absolutely ridiculous.

Your logic is weak because you can't see two classes, or specs, overlapping.
How does class specs having themes negate anything i said? Spec 1 - Dark Ranger theme; spec 2 - Priestess of the Moon theme; spec 3 - Sea Witch theme. How is it disjointed? They are all, in their base, Rangers who use bows and magical arrows. Wildly different? is a Mage wildly different for using 3 different types of magic schools (Arcane, Fire and Frost)? is a Druid wildly different for using astral magic, animal combat and flora magic?

Arthas is a special case, because only he was the Lich King, and only he wielded Frostmourne and only he worn the Helm of Domination. There is no way playable Death Knights would get his abilities. Illidan is a special case, because only he consumed the Skull of Gul'dan and got his eyes seared by Sargeras. There is no way playable Demon Hunters would get his abilities.

Sylvanas is no longer a Banshee. she regained her physical body in Warcraft III. her title as Banshee Queen is as indicative as Lich King Indicating on Arthas being a Lich. Dark Ranger NPCs use Wailing Arrow: an Arrow imbued with a Banshee's wail. How could they do this, if they are not Banshees? Death Knights use Anti-Magic Shell. Anti-Magic Shell was the ability of Banshees in Warcraft III. Did it prevent them from getting it once they were added as playable class, due to them not being Banshees? No, it didn't. And what Banshee abilities, exactly, does Sylvanas posses that Dark Rangers can't? Banshee's Curse? Warlocks can Curse. Haunting Wave? That's just a form of necromancy. The Banshee Form in the Battle for Azeroth cinematic? that's just one ability. Can they retcon Dark Rangers to have Banshee powers when a Dark Ranger is added? definitely yes. Why is that? Death Knights were added with Frost and Blood magic only after Wrath of the Lich King. Monk were added with Mistweaving and Windwalking only after Mists of Pandaria. Nothing prevents them from being Banshee-like. You, guys, are using Sylvanas like she is some kind of a snowflake, like the other Warcraft III hero characters weren't.

No, shit... maybe because she is an important character, unlike other NPCs. and, maybe, when a class is added it is shown to be able to use more weapons then the core concept does. like how, for example, Death Knights have been shown to use swords but, now can use a plethora of other weapons, Demon Hunters have been shown to, exclusively, wield glaives but, can now wield other types of weapons, and Monks were shown to wield, mainly, staves but, can now wield other weapons. Crazy, huh? it's like they are expanding the class when it is added to the game. I know it is hard for you to imagine but, please, try harder.

"And when it comes to Brewmaster, we can't play Pandaren so, that's out." same sentence, different words. Did it prevent the Pandaren and Monks from being added together in Mists of Pandaria? No, it didn't.

Using major lore characters as a way for a class to work is a key concept Blizzard has been using all this time. You're, clearly, not following. Death Knight are based on Arthas. Demon Hunters are based on Illidan. Monks are based on Chen Stormstout. the Tinker Teriz wants (and, i do want one, too) is based on Gazlowe.

[Revamp Man]

Isnt Chimera shot shadow and ice?

i will never understand why people say Tinkers would destroy Engineering.
Engineering would still make Guns, scopes, toys, mounts, pets and sometimes like what happened in BFA a mace weapon.
engineer will be making the strange silly things that it always does.

eh at this point its less "engineering means tinkers wont happen" and more "well you say X class cant happen for these reasons and therefore tinkers cant happen for X reason" and then its 100 pages of people trying to talk to a brick wall and any class besides tinkers essentially getting smothered

[TheRevenantHero]

The Goblin's Rocket Barrage racial TCG card shows a Goblin employing a technical device to launch a rocket from his arm. In-game, it is not shown through the animation. A rocket is, simply, shot from the character. You, clearly, never heard about animation limitations.



Of course a character, in-game, can shoot a volley of missiles without the help of a machine. It's a game, not real life. Currently, you can shoot a Rocket from your waist with Rocket BARRAGE (and let me highlight the word Barrage: "a concentrated artillery bombardment over a wide area".) game restrictions would suggest they didn't bother to represent it in-game and, instead, copy the Goblin Rocket trinket of Engineering as an animation. A person cannot, also, shoot a Goblin Rocket from their Gun/Bow/Crossbow with Explosive Shot, a Barrage of arrows from a Gun/Bow/Crossbow with Volley and launch a Trap with Trap Launcher, using a Gun/Bow/Crossbow. Clearly, these restrictions do not apply to a video game. Therefore, you don't see your character actually making the artillery before shooting it, or carrying it. They just, magically, pull it out of their asses. So, don't try to apply real-life logic into a video game, like a wise-guy.

By the way, Fireworks are, also, not shot from a Gun/Bow/Crossbow. They would require a launching device of sort. and yet, Hunter can launch them with no special animation or devices. Not to talk about Engineers who are not Hunters and do not carry a launching device yet, shoot fireworks out of their asses.

You talked about in-game abilities, not HoTS abilities. and yes, it does matter who uses them. If an NPC labeled as an Engineer uses them then, one would assume it is related to Engineering.

Oh, they are not important enough? Yet, Dark Rangers are? You, clearly, twist it the way you want it to...
You said, if they are in the class order hall, then they are part of the class. Therefore, if they are not there, according to your logic, they are not part of the class.

No. half of the abilities are from the Tinker and half are from the Alchemist. You would need to call it a Scientist, or something like that...

Never argued it operates, exactly, the same. You assume it so. You, also, expect it to operate, exactly, the same. That's not how things work. You asked for abilities and items that do the same thing. Technicalities, like scaling damage, cooldown or cast time, are irrelevant. To roleplay as a Tinker you need the Tinker fantasy, not the Tinker damage. meaning, if items can replicate the abilities of the Tinker then, that's all it requires. You do not know how much damage a Tinker class is supposed to do, what are the cooldowns and casting times, because the in-game abilities of NPCs do not reflect a how a class ability would work 1:1. That's why Bosses or NPCs, who posses similar abilities to those of our classes, do not match them by 100% in terms of damage, cooldown and other technicalities. Otherwise, a Death Knight ability would be as strong as Arthas' counterpart of that ability, a Demon Hunter ability would be as strong as Illidan's counterpart of that ability and so on...

The Alchemical potions of an Alchemist are not supposed to be a replacement to a Rogue's potion. You asked for similar abilities and items. I gave you them.

Oh, would you look at that:

Iron Stomach
Level 60 Outlaw rogue talent
Passive
Increases the healing you receive from Crimson Vial, healing potions, and healthstones by 30%.

Alchemist Stone
Item Level 30
Binds when picked up
Unique-Equipped
Trinket
+3 Strength
+3 Agility
+3 Intellect
+3 Stamina
+4 Versatility
Equip: Increases the effect that healing and mana potions have on the wearer by 40%. This effect does not stack.

other things that affected profession items. So, yes. They, also, scale.

Abilities used to require reagents. Not all items are consumable. At the end of the day, both are clickable icons that, either, activate on use, are randomly activated or passively buff you. That applies to all abilities, talents, profession items or borrowed power, like trinkets and legendary effects.

Altruis, back in The Burning Crusade, didn't have shit. He was a quest giver in Nagrand. Literally, every one of his abilities were added in Legion, with the addition of Demon Hunters. Kayn Sunfury didn't even exist in-game before Legion and the addition of Demon Hunters. Once again, showing you know nothing about lore.

Who put Sylvanas in charge of raising Dark Rangers? There were other Dark Rangers other than Sylvanas in Warcraft III. Nathanos himself died during the third war, and joined the forsaken, afterwards. You talk about her like she is some kind of a Lich King, raising Dark Rangers and bestowing them with her powers, like the Lich King does in the Death Knight starting zone.

Oh, none of them? are you sure? Well, let's have a look:

"Nathanos is explicitly referred to as a dark ranger in Before the Storm,[2] and in-game he displays typical dark ranger abilities like the summoning of skeleton minions and the usage of a special [Black Arrow]."

Dark Ranger Alina: Black Arrow — Curses an enemy, inflicting periodic Shadow damage over 8 sec. If the target dies while afflicted by Black Arrow, a Skeleton will be summoned from the target's corpse.

Wailing Arrow — A deafening banshee's wail erupts from the arrow's impact, inflicting Shadow damage and silencing nearby enemies.

Dark Ranger Anya: Black Arrow — Inflicts Shadow damage every 3 sec for 30 sec. If the target dies while afflicted, a skeleton will be summoned from their corpse.

Dark Ranger Clea: Black Arrow — Inflicts Shadow damage every 3 sec for 30 sec. If the target dies while afflicted, a skeleton will be summoned from their corpse.

Wailing Arrow — A deafening banshee's wail erupts from the arrow's impact, inflicting Shadow damage and silencing nearby enemies.

Dark Ranger Cyndia: Black Arrow — Inflicts Shadow damage every 3 sec for 30 sec. If the target dies while afflicted, a skeleton will be summoned from their corpse.

Dark Ranger Kalira: Black Arrow

Lenara: Black Arrow — Curses an enemy, inflicting periodic Shadow damage over 8 sec. If the target dies while afflicted by Black Arrow, a Skeleton will be summoned from the target's corpse.

Dark Ranger Lyana: Black Arrow — Curses an enemy, inflicting periodic Shadow damage over 8 sec. If the target dies while afflicted by Black Arrow, a Skeleton will be summoned from the target's corpse.

Dark Ranger Velonara: Black Arrow — Curses an enemy, inflicting periodic Shadow damage over 8 sec. If the target dies while afflicted by Black Arrow, a Skeleton will be summoned from the target's corpse.

Death Knight NPCs in-game, prior to Wrath of the Lich King, didn't have Arthas/Death Knight abilities from Warcraft III. They used a mix of Warlock and Warrior spells.

You probably have a short memory span, because it was you, a couple of posts ago, that stated, clearly, that Blizzard has a habit of not implementing all of the class abilities before the class is, actually, added to the game. Therefore, a Dark Ranger would not be 100% flashed out, in terms of abilities, through NPCs and, instead, take abilities from adjacent classes, like the Hunter, the same way Death Knights, prior to Wrath of the Lich King, took abilities from the Warlock and the Warrior. Or, does it not apply to Dark Rangers because it does not fit your narrative and your hatred towards them? That's what i would call double-standards.

Nathanos being a Dark Ranger does not make him, simply, a Forsaken Hunter. That's like saying that Lord Maldazzar, Baron Bloodbane, Duke Ragereaver and Lord Darkscythe are representatives of the Death Knight class, and because they use Warrior and Warlock abilities, a Death Knight is nothing more than a combination of these two.

My personal desire? That's a fact. if playable Death Knights are based on Arthas, and playable Demon Hunters are based on Illidan Stormrage, and playable Monks are based on Chen Stromstout then, playable Dark Rangers would be based on Sylvanas, not Nathanos Blightcaller. You're just too afraid to see it.



Your logic is weak because you can't see two classes, or specs, overlapping.
How does class specs having themes negate anything i said? Spec 1 - Dark Ranger theme; spec 2 - Priestess of the Moon theme; spec 3 - Sea Witch theme. How is it disjointed? They are all, in their base, Rangers who use bows and magical arrows. Wildly different? is a Mage wildly different for using 3 different types of magic schools (Arcane, Fire and Frost)? is a Druid wildly different for using astral magic, animal combat and flora magic?

Arthas is a special case, because only he was the Lich King, and only he wielded Frostmourne and only he worn the Helm of Domination. There is no way playable Death Knights would get his abilities. Illidan is a special case, because only he consumed the Skull of Gul'dan and got his eyes seared by Sargeras. There is no way playable Demon Hunters would get his abilities.

Sylvanas is no longer a Banshee. she regained her physical body in Warcraft III. her title as Banshee Queen is as indicative as Lich King Indicating on Arthas being a Lich. Dark Ranger NPCs use Wailing Arrow: an Arrow imbued with a Banshee's wail. How could they do this, if they are not Banshees? Death Knights use Anti-Magic Shell. Anti-Magic Shell was the ability of Banshees in Warcraft III. Did it prevent them from getting it once they were added as playable class, due to them not being Banshees? No, it didn't. And what Banshee abilities, exactly, does Sylvanas posses that Dark Rangers can't? Banshee's Curse? Warlocks can Curse. Haunting Wave? That's just a form of necromancy. The Banshee Form in the Battle for Azeroth cinematic? that's just one ability. Can they retcon Dark Rangers to have Banshee powers when a Dark Ranger is added? definitely yes. Why is that? Death Knights were added with Frost and Blood magic only after Wrath of the Lich King. Monk were added with Mistweaving and Windwalking only after Mists of Pandaria. Nothing prevents them from being Banshee-like. You, guys, are using Sylvanas like she is some kind of a snowflake, like the other Warcraft III hero characters weren't.

No, shit... maybe because she is an important character, unlike other NPCs. and, maybe, when a class is added it is shown to be able to use more weapons then the core concept does. like how, for example, Death Knights have been shown to use swords but, now can use a plethora of other weapons, Demon Hunters have been shown to, exclusively, wield glaives but, can now wield other types of weapons, and Monks were shown to wield, mainly, staves but, can now wield other weapons. Crazy, huh? it's like they are expanding the class when it is added to the game. I know it is hard for you to imagine but, please, try harder.

"And when it comes to Brewmaster, we can't play Pandaren so, that's out." same sentence, different words. Did it prevent the Pandaren and Monks from being added together in Mists of Pandaria? No, it didn't.

Using major lore characters as a way for a class to work is a key concept Blizzard has been using all this time. You're, clearly, not following. Death Knight are based on Arthas. Demon Hunters are based on Illidan. Monks are based on Chen Stormstout. the Tinker Teriz wants (and, i do want one, too) is based on Gazlowe.

She is a Banshee inhabiting her body. She still has Banshee powers as seen in numerous cut scenes. Dark rangers had those abilities in WC3 but lost them in WoW. A lot of things were changed in WoW. So....those three specs you named simply don't have enough unique about them to warrant anything for a class OR spec. One or two unique spells cannot and will not define a class.

As for using lore characters as an example, death knights are NOT based on Arthas especially because there were death knights that existed before him. Teron Gorefiend was literally the first death knight in lore. So the lore was already there, Arthas was just an iconic example. Nothing more. Saying classes are based on an NPC rather that NPC just being an iconic example of existing lore is ridiculous. Teriz's version of tinker has absolutely no difference from engineer from a lore standpoint and would be an utter failure because he wants it restricted to the most unpopular races in game.

But sure, call my logic weak simply because I won't agree with you.

[Kul]

It’s ok. Everybody knows that the new class they need is just other specs; like The Battlemage.

[Teriz]

I love how you choose two COMPLETELY DIFFERENT ABILITIES. What's the difference between a tinker throwing a bomb they made and a warrior also throwing a bomb they made is a better question. And the answer is nothing.

Except a Tinker wouldn't throw a bomb, they would launch a bomb from either their claw pack or mech. We see this with both Tinker heroes in WC3 and HotS.

[Revamp Man]

It’s ok. Everybody knows that the new class they need is just other specs; like The Battlemage.

with a time skip like what they seem to be setting up...its likely

idk until 9.2 we cant even speculate about whats coming next

[TheRevenantHero]

Except a Tinker wouldn't throw a bomb, they would launch a bomb from either their claw pack or mech. We see this with both Tinker heroes in WC3 and HotS.

WC3 and HotS is literally irrelevant. This is WoW. So all you're doing is spewing conjecture. The facts say engineering and tinker are the exact same from a lore standpoint.

[Traveler Voltin]

eh at this point its less "engineering means tinkers wont happen" and more "well you say X class cant happen for these reasons and therefore tinkers cant happen for X reason" and then its 100 pages of people trying to talk to a brick wall and any class besides tinkers essentially getting smothered

comparing a profession to a class is different than comparing a class to class. (apples to oranges)
the sad reality right now is Dark rangers and Necromancers cant happen.
A dragon related class could happen but i dont see blizzard making a class with 5 specs.

- - - Updated - - -

with a time skip like what they seem to be setting up...its likely

idk until 9.2 we cant even speculate about whats coming next

there will not be a time skip

[Teriz]

The Goblin's Rocket Barrage racial TCG card shows a Goblin employing a technical device to launch a rocket from his arm. In-game, it is not shown through the animation. A rocket is, simply, shot from the character. You, clearly, never heard about animation limitations.

I have, and the same argument applies. I mean the Rocket could be tied to a stick and have a fuse that is lighted in order to launch the rocket at a target. That's still not the same as having a mech open up a silo and launch a rocket (or missile or bomb) at a target.

Of course a character, in-game, can shoot a volley of missiles without the help of a machine. It's a game, not real life. Currently, you can shoot a Rocket from your waist with Rocket BARRAGE (and let me highlight the word Barrage: "a concentrated artillery bombardment over a wide area".) game restrictions would suggest they didn't bother to represent it in-game and, instead, copy the Goblin Rocket trinket of Engineering as an animation. A person cannot, also, shoot a Goblin Rocket from their Gun/Bow/Crossbow with Explosive Shot, a Barrage of arrows from a Gun/Bow/Crossbow with Volley and launch a Trap with Trap Launcher, using a Gun/Bow/Crossbow. Clearly, these restrictions do not apply to a video game. Therefore, you don't see your character actually making the artillery before shooting it, or carrying it. They just, magically, pull it out of their asses. So, don't try to apply real-life logic into a video game, like a wise-guy.

Yeah, actually try using the racial, it's ONE rocket. I have no idea why they call it a "barrage".

Also no one is attempting to apply real-life logic to a video game. If someone is trying to argue in lore that a barbarian who dabbles in a profession is the same as a mechanical genius who can build a mecha along the lines of Japanese science fiction, then it's completely fair to point out the differences.

By the way, Fireworks are, also, not shot from a Gun/Bow/Crossbow. They would require a launching device of sort. and yet, Hunter can launch them with no special animation or devices. Not to talk about Engineers who are not Hunters and do not carry a launching device yet, shoot fireworks out of their asses.

Or you can tie a rocket to the gun and simply light the fuse, or you can tie a stick to the firework and launch it that way. You don't need a silo to launch a primitive rocket. You do need a silo to launch a missile though.

You talked about in-game abilities, not HoTS abilities. and yes, it does matter who uses them. If an NPC labeled as an Engineer uses them then, one would assume it is related to Engineering.

The HotS abilities Rock It Turret, Grav-o-bomb 3000, Xplodium Charge, and Deth Lazor are currently in WoW.

Oh, they are not important enough? Yet, Dark Rangers are? You, clearly, twist it the way you want it to...
You said, if they are in the class order hall, then they are part of the class. Therefore, if they are not there, according to your logic, they are not part of the class.

When was the last time you saw a thread for a Blademaster or a Shadow Hunter class? No one cares about either of those concepts, because it's OBVIOUS what those concepts are.

No. half of the abilities are from the Tinker and half are from the Alchemist. You would need to call it a Scientist, or something like that...

Uh no. The Tinker has HotS and WC3 abilities along with the concept of Mech piloting. There's about a dozen abilities wrapped up in the Tinker heroes. The Alchemist consists of about 4 abilities, and the Ultimate is iffy at best for inclusion.

Never argued it operates, exactly, the same. You assume it so. You, also, expect it to operate, exactly, the same. That's not how things work. You asked for abilities and items that do the same thing. Technicalities, like scaling damage, cooldown or cast time, are irrelevant. To roleplay as a Tinker you need the Tinker fantasy, not the Tinker damage. meaning, if items can replicate the abilities of the Tinker then, that's all it requires. You do not know how much damage a Tinker class is supposed to do, what are the cooldowns and casting times, because the in-game abilities of NPCs do not reflect a how a class ability would work 1:1. That's why Bosses or NPCs, who posses similar abilities to those of our classes, do not match them by 100% in terms of damage, cooldown and other technicalities. Otherwise, a Death Knight ability would be as strong as Arthas' counterpart of that ability, a Demon Hunter ability would be as strong as Illidan's counterpart of that ability and so on...

Uh, cool downs, damage, cast time, etc. are PART of those abilities. A heal that has a 5 minute CD is FUNDAMENTALLY DIFFERENT than a heal that has a 30 second CD.

[TheRevenantHero]

with a time skip like what they seem to be setting up...its likely

idk until 9.2 we cant even speculate about whats coming next

They've already said there will be no timeskip. It was blatantly said in an interview.

[Teriz]

WC3 and HotS is literally irrelevant. This is WoW. So all you're doing is spewing conjecture. The facts say engineering and tinker are the exact same from a lore standpoint.

All 3 expansion classes came from WC3 and HotS, so no, they're not irrelevant.

[TheRevenantHero]

All 3 expansion classes came from WC3 and HotS, so no, they're not irrelevant.

They did NOT come from HotS. Stop using it as an example because it's 100% irrelevant. As for WC3, it's irrelevant as well. The DH and DK went through MASSIVE changes in WoW. Same with the monk. So yes, you need to stop using it as an example.

[Revamp Man]

comparing a profession to a class is different than comparing a class to class. (apples to oranges)
the sad reality right now is Dark rangers and Necromancers cant happen.
A dragon related class could happen but i dont see blizzard making a class with 5 specs.

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there will not be a time skip

i dont think it would be 5 at all personally

4 specs fits better
dark rangers and necromancers can always happen because blizz can twist stuff

a time skip is being set up not just by the lines about time in the shadowlands but the scarlet crusade having influence with the big heroes away

[KrayZ33]

Hunters had Black Arrow since WotK, and it always had shadow damage.

I didn't deny that. But you think Black Arrow did always fit in with the rest? Or why do you think it was removed?
Not only that, it was a Survival talent at first, and procced heavy TNT-loaded arrows for you to shoot like Rambo, lel.

It's like you are saying Warriors should be able to use ranged weapons because they had "shoot" back in the day since forever.

Again. Shadow Damage doesn't belong with Hunters. Not even as a sub-spec because Dark Rangers have nothing in common with hunters anymore other than that they can use a bow or rifle.


But so could warriors and rogues too back in the day.

Dark Rangers are to Hunters what Deathknights are to Warriors.
Both have been the respective equivalent in the past, but are something different now using different powers.

Again, if they had somehow made this choice a long time ago, it'd be fine. But now people would have to forget Legion basically. Or they need to ignore it.

[Teriz]

They did NOT come from HotS. Stop using it as an example because it's 100% irrelevant.

The DH's version of Metamorphosis came from HotS, as did a few of its abilities. Which makes sense because the DH was the first class released in WoW after HotS. Further, HotS abilities have popped up in a few other NPCs and classes as well. So yeah, not irrelevant.

As for WC3, it's irrelevant as well. The DH and DK went through MASSIVE changes in WoW. Same with the monk. So yes, you need to stop using it as an example.

The DK and DH's entire ability set, general appearance, and archetypal lore character from WC3 was transferred over to WoW. The same happened to the Brewmaster and the Monk class. The WC3 basic concept is what formed the foundation of all three expansion classes, and if Tinker is a future class, it stands to reason the same will apply to it as well.

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And you think Black Arrow did always fit in with the rest? Or why do you think it was removed?
Not only that, it was a Survival talent at first, and procced heavy explosion arrows for you to shoot, lel.

I don't remember anyone ever saying that Black Arrow didn't fit in the Hunter class.

It's like you are saying Warriors should be able to use ranged weapons because they had "shoot" back in the day since forever.

That would be a straw man, since that isn't similar to what I'm saying at all.

Again. Shadow Damage doesn't belong with Hunters. Not even as a sub-spec because Dark Rangers have nothing in common with hunters anymore other than that they can use a bow or rifle.

No one is saying that Hunters should have a shadow sub spec. What I'm saying is that there's no point in building a Dark Ranger class when you can just stick 1-3 Shadow arrow abilities in the Hunter class and call it a day.

[Traveler Voltin]

engineering is massively limited on what it can it do because its a profession. its bombs and stuff have to be massively weakened so its not required.

[TheRevenantHero]

The DH's version of Metamorphosis came from HotS, as did a few of its abilities. Which makes sense because the DH was the first class released in WoW after HotS. Further, HotS abilities have popped up in a few other NPCs and classes as well. So yeah, not irrelevant.



The DK and DH's entire ability set, general appearance, and archetypal lore character from WC3 was transferred over to WoW. The same happened to the Brewmaster and the Monk class. The WC3 basic concept is what formed the foundation of all three expansion classes, and if Tinker is a future class, it stands to reason the same will apply to it as well.

No it absolutely didn't. It was an altered version of Warlock's metamorphosis. DH has existed for a while and was meant to be released in TBC. So you're 100% wrong about it being based on HotS. So....yeah. Irrelevant.

It has been proven numerous times that you're wrong about your assertions but as usual you refuse to admit fault.

[Teriz]

No it absolutely didn't. It was an altered version of Warlock's metamorphosis. DH has existed for a while and was meant to be released in TBC. So you're 100% wrong about it being based on HotS. So....yeah. Irrelevant.

It has been proven numerous times that you're wrong about your assertions but as usual you refuse to admit fault.

Actually no. The Warlock version of Metamorphosis was actually more in line with the WC3 version of the spell. The DH version of Metamorphosis was more in line with the HotS version of the spell. In addition, whereas the WC3 version of the spell was ranged, the HotS version was melee, just like the DH class version. Blizzard also took the general appearance of the DH class version of meta from HotS.

This makes sense when you consider that Blizzard has been increasingly using HotS models and concepts for Warcraft. Gazlowe's claw pack in WC3:R for example is the HotS version of the claw pack.

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engineering is massively limited on what it can it do because its a profession. its bombs and stuff have to be massively weakened so its not required.

They know this. They're just lashing out because I've shown how Dark Ranger and Necromancer simply aren't viable concepts anymore. This is just their version of "revenge".

[TheRevenantHero]

Actually no. The Warlock version of Metamorphosis was actually more in line with the WC3 version of the spell. The DH version of Metamorphosis was more in line with the HotS version of the spell. In addition, whereas the WC3 version of the spell was ranged, the HotS version was melee, just like the DH class version. Blizzard also took the general appearance of the DH class version of meta from HotS.

This makes sense when you consider that Blizzard has been increasingly using HotS models and concepts for Warcraft. Gazlowe's claw pack in WC3:R for example is the HotS version of the claw pack.

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They know this. They're just lashing out because I've shown how Dark Ranger and Necromancer simply aren't viable concepts anymore. This is just their version of "revenge".

Once again, stop using HotS as an example. It's an RTS with absolutely no lore. So is Kerrigan gonna show up in WoW purely because she's in HotS then?

And no. This isn't revenge. This is us showing you countless times that your concept of tinker is utter trash and is pretty much just engineering with spell cooldowns. But you stick your finger in your ears and scream about how you're not listening.