Nahhh Paladins need a nerf ASAP

[Ticj]

The problem with PvP is the community wanting gear power to matter in PvP which is a competitive enviroment, it should be equal in rated PvP otherwise skill is not a factor its just who is better geared.

If your a player who wants to be more powerful in PvP against another player that is lower geared then its you thats the problem because you dont want things to be fair for everyone.

Players dont actually know what they want, and what they want is never actually good for the game in most cases.

Also look at PvP now, they added in gear increasing power and the results are the worst PvP ever with no balance, classes able to kill ppl so fast you cant even react, that is not what i call good for PvP.

Gear matters in PvE content, yet to a lot of people that is considered a competitive environment. This is an MMORPG, this is not league of legends. Gear should always matter. The second people tried to make PvP in this game appeal to twitch and other streams the PvP died. Why? Because it was no longer fun. Skill in an MMORPG does not only mean how good a player is at killing someone. There is technical skill in knowing what stats you should stack. Since this is an MMORPG, time investment in the game should matter as well. A player who is doing their first BG ever shouldn't be able to stand toe to toe against someone who is fully conquest geared. Just like how a Mythic raider will completely shred an LFR player on dps charts.

Also, this whole idea doesn't even make sense because in the higher rating brackets the players should be pretty on par with each other in gear, as they will likely both have the maximum amount of PvP gear available at the time.

This whole "players don't know what they want" argument is bullshit because we've been down this route and it completely killed PvP for two full expansions. So in this case it is pretty apparent what players don't want.

[Molov]

I didn't mean "a lot of classes" could dispel it more like many can counter it by outranging it easily thus negating the person of the bubble's purpose of immunity and running down wings as well.

If you played in arena you'd know it's not just as easy as you say. Even if i turn around a pillar all the paladin has to do is to use a steed and 3s is enough by far. But this issue only regards rets since the issue is that they can land 20k hits.

This is what I'm trying to figure out. Why are you kiting for 30 seconds? Bubble is 8 and Wings is 20s and usually both combined so that's 20s. Steed is 3 seconds long. That's 23s and at most 26s with 2 charges but it is unlikely they have both charges up already.

kiting for the duration of wings, which is variable because sometimes it lasts 20 to 25. But if that's your argument when i'm telling you that having to kite for 20 seconds or more in arena perfectly because you can take 50% health in a gcd, you're missing the point.

Next question is how are they hitting you for 70% health in two globals? It takes 4 globals to be able to build up HP and use Templar's Verdict. Only 2 of the 3 HP generating abilities are ranged with one of them limited to 12 yards.

Without bubble rets can be slowed with very little to counter it as Freedom is 20s cooldown (might be off by 5 seconds).

The numbers don't add up unless you are melee which can be understandable at that point, but it is the downside of playing melee. Casters on the other hand shouldn't have issues.

Because the situation allows to use 4 globals in case you're HoJ without trinket, or you trinket but have no pillar nearby or you're just playing like a regular arena yeah as a melee or you're something like a SP that you can catch easily at melee. Or simply you're getting stun DR and 3s is enough for it appearently. Also because this happens at 2.4k rating where people has 233 Ilvl weapons that hit like a truck. Even with my 220 weapon as feral I land huge bites (but nowhere near 20k ofc), can't wait for my 226. Casters also have an issue because not everyong can kite like mages or hunters : SP, locks, even boomy have limited ways to kite, unless they don't do damage (i. e running in travel form, dispers...). Just watch streams of paladins and you'll see that it's really not hard to connect, unless MM hunters if they play well.

Again a lot of that stuff can be countered or something else done. Does it mean it is perfect? No and I never once said that. The question needs to be looked at of how are they generating constant HP that is enough to constantly be Word of Glory'ing people? It's a 3 HP move and only Avenger Shield and Judgment generate it. Usually people pillar hump so they are less likely to be used.

You talk like you think a tank paladin can be CC'd constantly. How are they generating constant holy power? Simple : CCs are limited by comp and DRs, once cyclone is DR, stun is DR (as a feral I have my maim which costs me combo points and bash which as 45 seconds CD), clone can be kicked and I have to hardcast it, paladin has a 5s steed (if not more with the right talents : 30s cooldown, immune to CC for 8s, 220% speed so you can't kite it : https://www.wowhead.com/spell=190784...steed#comments) thingy where we can't be CC'd, with 2 stacks so he's twice as fast as your mount, can use his spells, and is immune to all CC for roughly a third of the game.

You haven't answered: how much should've my resto shaman healed/damaged if he was low?

Blessing of Protection only negates physical so spells can still nuke them.

Yeah i'm talking mostly from a melee perspective. But even if you can nuke him, BOP makes him immune to stuns. And right now most comps are melee. But to be fair that's not paladin's problem

Just because people are pissed in Rank 1's doesn't mean much either. Instead of being pissed they should be trying to analyze "Why are they able to keep doing this? What can be changed in a fight to counter them from doing it so much?" Then the next set of questions are "What needs to be adjusted? Should be it a single adjustment to that class or an overall adjustment that blankets everyone while in there?" Fights shouldn't ever be quick and I see no problem with them lasting for awhile and going back and forth. Shorter fights leads to higher burst on everyone and just causes frustration amongst everyone since no one likes being killed in a single stun (like rogues were doing and only class I had this issue with).

Trying to scream and say NERF THIS does absolutely nothing without analyzing it and looking at the entire picture and how it would affect the class as a whole in grand scheme.

I'm sorry but you're talking like R1s don't do that or like you've never seen them play. There's a reason why they are R1s: they are the first ones to figure out strategies. And they do: they figure it out faster than others, and they win sometimes, if not usually. If you watch Rextroy's video they struggle against tony and hydra, two R1s who figured how to beat them while rextroy was undefeated as prot paladin DK, with a DK with no arena experience. Their frustration is what i've been trying to explain to you: they (and most good players) like longer, tight games where people play smart, anticipate, etc, and this is not found playing vs a prot paladin. It has been analyzed and the issue has been very clearly pointed out : the healing done is too much, and they have too much utility in a way that it makes it no only viable at high rating, but a better option than certain healers to fill the same spot. I'm sorry but it really looks like you don't have any idea how PvP works right now. I hope i'm wrong but your answer are so theoretical that just playing a few games would show you that they don't stand.

I also like how all of these things have existed before but now that all stats got reset, gear scaled down, etc it all of a sudden becomes more of a problem. Yes paladins have the one talent now about healing for lower %, but that's essentially what Hand of Light was doing in BFA as well.

Yes : when you scale gear and numbers, some things that used to be roughly fine unsuspectedly turn out to be completely unbalanced and need to be adjusted as well. It's... logic.

[neocount]

You just can't compete with the high dmg output and self healing.

10k verdict crits? give me a break

Hunters and Paladins definitely need nerfing.

[Ticj]

I think ret burst and damage is fine, but hybrid healing across all classes needs to be toned the fuck down. What is the counter against an instant heal that can be cast on an ally that heals for 50-75% of their health?

[Zephire]

At 1200 rating people are lacking knowledge so gimmicks work more often. You don’t decide buffs and nerds around 1200 rated player complaints

Yeah, they do but you also have to acknowledge if something is broken and to easy to perform every other opponent of that skill level will have a really bad time against them. I think demonhunter was a bit like that in BFA. A nerf might not be the way to go though because that could effect top rated plays in a way you don't want (if the top rated players of said class performs on a similar level to their opponents. Instead you adjust something so that skilled players pick it up quickly and keep performing in a similar level while low skilled players play worse and align more with their opponents of similar skill.

[Magical Mudcrab]

Yeah, they do but you also have to acknowledge if something is broken and to easy to perform every other opponent of that skill level will have a really bad time against them. I think demonhunter was a bit like that in BFA. A nerf might not be the way to go though because that could effect top rated plays in a way you don't want (if the top rated players of said class performs on a similar level to their opponents. Instead you adjust something so that skilled players pick it up quickly and keep performing in a similar level while low skilled players play worse and align more with their opponents of similar skill.

Whether the actual effect is difficult to pull off is irrelevant, all that matters is how difficult it is to deal with. All Rets are doing is essentially leveraging Execution Sentence and Final Reckoning to amplify their Templars Verdict damage, which has an 8~second (roughly 5~seconds after setup) window of usage every minute, which isn't that powerful. Frankly, Ret Paladin are one of the easiest melee to deal with. They arguably have the least mobility in the game, their damage outside of CDs is atrocious, and their most potent CDs are so short lived that they only really need to be controlled for 5-10 seconds every minute in order to negate their damage. On top of that, they only have a single meaningful defensive cooldown: Divine Shield. If players can't deal with CCing the Paladin once a minute, they can simply train the Paladin until they pop DS and break the bubble with Shattering Throw or Mass Dispel (if with a Warrior or Priest). Hell, even if they can't break the DS, the Paladin likely won't be able to catch you if they're outside of 20 yards anyways.

[Deneios]

The paladin has to have 3HP use 2x1min cd + 3min cd and what ever to stay on target be it steeds or ds and all that requires that you are dumb enough to stand there and take it in the melee range. All this is either negated by not being in melee or have the paladin not able to land his next attacks in 8 sec. So what skills other classes have that render the dps cd and 1 def cd less effective. Mayby a one of their own since every class and spec have some.

So you either wasted your def cd that either cripples the burst or down right negates it, you dont run/mobility or you facetank a 3xdps cd and think you shouldnt die to it.

[kenn9530]

Gear matters in PvE content, yet to a lot of people that is considered a competitive environment. This is an MMORPG, this is not league of legends. Gear should always matter. The second people tried to make PvP in this game appeal to twitch and other streams the PvP died. Why? Because it was no longer fun. Skill in an MMORPG does not only mean how good a player is at killing someone. There is technical skill in knowing what stats you should stack. Since this is an MMORPG, time investment in the game should matter as well. A player who is doing their first BG ever shouldn't be able to stand toe to toe against someone who is fully conquest geared. Just like how a Mythic raider will completely shred an LFR player on dps charts.

Also, this whole idea doesn't even make sense because in the higher rating brackets the players should be pretty on par with each other in gear, as they will likely both have the maximum amount of PvP gear available at the time.

This whole "players don't know what they want" argument is bullshit because we've been down this route and it completely killed PvP for two full expansions. So in this case it is pretty apparent what players don't want.

PvP has never been killed off for one, so your argument this killed this is not even valid, PvE gear scaling doesnt matter since your not against other players but in every case where power is effected in PvP it never works and is a terrible system.

In rated PvP all things should be equal across the PvP tiers, if its not rated the power scaling doesnt really matter but PvP should be about skill and not that guy has 10 more ilvl and thats why i lost.

It is more fun to beat someone on a level playing field where gear doesnt play a factor in winning that fight. If your wanting a gear advantage in PvP then you shouldnt be doing it in the first place.

[Ticj]

PvP has never been killed off for one, so your argument this killed this is not even valid, PvE gear scaling doesnt matter since your not against other players but in every case where power is effected in PvP it never works and is a terrible system.

In rated PvP all things should be equal across the PvP tiers, if its not rated the power scaling doesnt really matter but PvP should be about skill and not that guy has 10 more ilvl and thats why i lost.

It is more fun to beat someone on a level playing field where gear doesnt play a factor in winning that fight. If your wanting a gear advantage in PvP then you shouldnt be doing it in the first place.

If you're going to deny that legion and BFA has the lowest levels of participation in WoW history then you're just denying reality.

https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wo...ngeance/386712
https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wo...wow-dead/76832
https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wo...ly-dead/146541
https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wo...ly-dead/302388

[Pawpurr]

*checks wowhead*



yea nah, learn to play

[kenn9530]

If you're going to deny that legion and BFA has the lowest levels of participation in WoW history then you're just denying reality.

https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wo...ngeance/386712
https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wo...wow-dead/76832
https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wo...ly-dead/146541
https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wo...ly-dead/302388

the expansions had a lower subscription level of players anyway, blizzard themselves have not even provided with actual numbers so some random forums with no actual information does anything for your claim, so claiming PvP was dead with no evidence backing you up is just pointless.

[Varaben]

Tons of classes can do oneshots exactly the same (e.g. feral/balance, fire/frost mage, ele shaman), so if we're nerfing paladins we gotta address these other classes too. I'm frankly kind of surprised that rogues got nerfed as much as they did, yet so many other one-shots remain.

[schwarzkopf]

This can't be right I was told in the other threads on here only rogues were doing high dmg. /s

Nah - rogues just have perma-CC, so they can take their time

- - - Updated - - -

exactly the same (e.g. feral/balance, fire/frost mage, ele shaman),

Well - mages don't have any spammable self heals.

[Tojara]

*checks wowhead*



yea nah, learn to play

Not arguing either way, but linking PvE statistics in the PvP forum is sort of retarded.

[h8ryan]

When you get more gear it will balance out, if you can't seem to understand how to survive the 8 seconds of invulnerability with wings up you're not good enough to have an opinion on how PVP should be balanced to begin with

it's a 3.5 minute to 5 min cooldown, imagine being a DH and not just running away

[schwarzkopf]

yea nah, learn to play

Checks title of thread... PvP
Checks link from mr "Lrn2Play" ... PvE

yea nah, learn to read

[h8ryan]

the problem with ret is outside of the bubble and the absorb shield they don't have a lot of utility to survive in the way that other melee do.

There's no dstance, there's no high mobility, dodge, vanishes, feint, their self heals should be slightly nerfed (along with literally every hybrid), but other than that it's a lrn2play issue here

[Varaben]

Nah - rogues just have perma-CC, so they can take their time

- - - Updated - - -




Well - mages don't have any spammable self heals.

I mean they have spammable CC which is just as good. They can steal hots which is amazing. I'm not trying to compare paladins to mages. I'm just saying every class is OP right now (with a few exceptions under performing), its just that paladins are high burst damage/heals with little defensives/damage mitigation/mobility. So ours is kind of flashy.

[Pawpurr]

Checks title of thread... PvP
Checks link from mr "Lrn2Play" ... PvE

yea nah, learn to read

Right, because that's what we need - People blind to half the game suggesting balance changes without considering the other side. Nothing bad ever came from that, right?

I guess if I ignored half the game, I wouldn't understand balance either.

Nerf the classes that are highly ranked on both, Doing anything else is braindead.

[schwarzkopf]

I mean they have spammable CC which is just as good.

Which heals the target... yeah, really good idea.