Would Mythic + be more enjoyable without a timer?

[BetrayedOf52]

If Mythic + timer was replaced by something else, whether it was a set shared death pool, or just made it more difficult with more engaging affixes that arent just passive % increases. Do you think you would find it more enjoyable? Or is a timer the best possible solution to making 5 mans drop relevant gear without just handing it out.

[Zenjie]

shared death pool. I would like that. I like grouping in WoW because we communicate. And with the timer, its making hard to communicate lol.

[Raugnaut]

Yes. I would go with a shared death pool myself. This would encourage a slower CC-based option on tougher pulls. Personally, I think it should be somthing like..

5 or less deaths - +3
10 or less deaths - +2
20 or less deaths - +1
Anything above that is failure. So 1 total party kill, 2 TPK, and 4 TPKs are the marks for success or failure.

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It would also allow for things like DCs, AFKs, ect without impacting the group overall.

[aceperson]

i don't think it would make it more enjoyable but it MIGHT make it less toxic and thus more enjoyable in a different sense. so many people bail on runs because of a few deaths and think they won't time it. normally i wouldn't want this change to happen because i like the high speed and competitive nature of it but i think the time for that has sadly ended. the MDI is a mess and blizz very clearly can't balance for speed running dungeons AND clearing raids.

that said, make it so bosses drop one piece of loot on death again. this is an issue i've had since legion. yes, we can run these dungeons all day but that doesn't matter. if someone wants to no life dungeons to get gear, theyre going to do it anyways even with the current system. 2 pieces of gear from a 4 or 5 boss dungeon feels incredibly punishing if you aren't one of the people who got a piece. you basically spent 30-40 minutes for 35 anima (or 70 depending on level).

[Sámsa]

5 or less death +3?
What are you guys doing in there if 5 death are a huge success?

[munkeyinorbit]

i don't think it would make it more enjoyable but it MIGHT make it less toxic and thus more enjoyable in a different sense. so many people bail on runs because of a few deaths and think they won't time it. normally i wouldn't want this change to happen because i like the high speed and competitive nature of it but i think the time for that has sadly ended. the MDI is a mess and blizz very clearly can't balance for speed running dungeons AND clearing raids.

that said, make it so bosses drop one piece of loot on death again. this is an issue i've had since legion. yes, we can run these dungeons all day but that doesn't matter. if someone wants to no life dungeons to get gear, theyre going to do it anyways even with the current system. 2 pieces of gear from a 4 or 5 boss dungeon feels incredibly punishing if you aren't one of the people who got a piece. you basically spent 30-40 minutes for 35 anima (or 70 depending on level).

Then we return to the problem that we had before. M+ becomes.the only way to gear up unless you are in the elite. If you want to get more gear from m+ runs then the whole system needs to have it's gear nerfed 13 ilvls. We must never go back to the days where one way to play essential starts killing another way to play. As for PvP? It is fine. PvP isn't killing pve even if it's possible for it to be the best way to gear. You still need to be good enough. For the normal player, PvP gearing is the same as doing your campaign except there's rings and trinkets too.

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5 or less death +3?
What are you guys doing in there if 5 death are a huge success?

What are you doing if you don't beat the timer? It's the same concept. You need to differentiate between success and failure. Your elitist toxicity is pointless here.

[faunski]

Yes. I would go with a shared death pool myself. This would encourage a slower CC-based option on tougher pulls. Personally, I think it should be somthing like..

5 or less deaths - +3
10 or less deaths - +2
20 or less deaths - +1
Anything above that is failure. So 1 total party kill, 2 TPK, and 4 TPKs are the marks for success or failure.

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It would also allow for things like DCs, AFKs, ect without impacting the group overall.

For someone with limited number of hours to spend on the game, this kind of design would be terrible. This means on higher keys that even after wasting multiple hours in an instance, with painstakingly careful (boring) pulls, you can still deplete. On the other hand, while a timer might seem punishing, you can actually still make a comeback if so inclined. There's been multiple points the key was deemed as doomed yet the team managed to push through. On death limit, you'll know when you're at your last life. Everything goes even slower. There's no leeway for failure here. Occasionally you might have to death run or someone just gets insta-gibbed on high keys. While you can trace most of these deaths to some a mistake someone made, it's still much more punishing compared to the current system and would waste insane amount of time from most of the players. I don't see how this would benefit anyone.

[T-34]

If there wasn't a timer then people could just wait for cd's for each pull. So the answer is a resounding no.

[neocount]

If there wasn't a timer then people could just wait for cd's for each pull. So the answer is a resounding no.

I'm not convinced they would, though. Most of the folks I play with only have so much time and tolerance for activities that take forever. I personally think it would be difficult to get a group with the mindset of waiting for CDs on every pull. That sounds incredibly dull to me.

[RobertoCarlos]

Yes. I would go with a shared death pool myself. This would encourage a slower CC-based option on tougher pulls. Personally, I think it should be somthing like..

5 or less deaths - +3
10 or less deaths - +2
20 or less deaths - +1
Anything above that is failure. So 1 total party kill, 2 TPK, and 4 TPKs are the marks for success or failure.

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It would also allow for things like DCs, AFKs, ect without impacting the group overall.

except if its a healer dc and you fail the run to one wipe

[GnomeEU]

Yes, would be more enjoyable without a timer.
Put a timer in 15+, but not in (Mandatory) 10x weekly dungeon runs.

If you want a timer set it to 90 min so people are more relaxed, it would reduce the Toxicity of most groups by a lot IMHO.

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If there wasn't a timer then people could just wait for cd's for each pull. So the answer is a resounding no.

yes, because we do that in every challenging content xD
You would still have to kill the bosses, and do it all in a reasonable time.
Do you really think people would farm +15 if it would take them 3 hours to do so?

[Tadkins]

I really dislike the timer. It's a huge source of anxiety and stress for me in M+ runs. I would enjoy them far more without it. But I realize that's not a popular opinion and mentioning it just gets me trashed verbally most of the time.

[whywhatwhowhenhow]

Probably, but Blizzard insist on pushing M+ as an e-sport.

It's about business, not your enjoyment.

[Sialina]

It would be terribly boring. The timer is what makes m+ work, if you start falling behind you need to take more risks, if you are well ahead you can play it safer.

Another thing about all the "no CC threads" I find is people seem to want to CC the packs, how is that fun or hard? "Mage sheep star, hunter trap moon, Shaman hex diamond, we nuke skull" If you play at any sort of level you are used to having focus targets, and you have a modifier on your CC for your focus, so you see 10 seconds left on sheep, you press CTRL + F or whever you bound your sheep and it's resheeped.

A timer on the other hand forces you to divvy up interrupts/stuns as you are pulling, and unless you are doing really high keys where pulls are absolutely massive you have more than 1 interrupt/stun for every ability.

Lastly no timer means every hard pull you'd wait for hero and every available CD before risking your death count on it.

In conclusion, m+ without a timer would be like a boss without any type of enrage timer: Vulnerable to slow boring tactics that very few players would actually like.

[Razion]

If a timer or would-be death counter looks like it'll fail the key, people will drop group and then a key is ruined. It's a terrible feeling to spend time making a group and getting to the place and even doing part or a lot of a dungeon only for it all to get ruined by one person who can't be bothered. I feel like there could be an incentive to keep those people around, but beyond taking away the possibility for the key to tank at all... on second thought, why does the key have to tank at all even? If people can complete it, they can complete it. Shouldn't that mean they win? The timer could just be for bragging rights or achievements or cosmetics or something - I feel like people wouldn't leave nearly as often if it were just for those sorts of things.

People have mentioned possibilities of r.io tanking their rating or something for leaving, but we just end up in a situation where they just log out and don't leave group forcing the others to leave first. It could be a vote for blame situation, but people could easily abuse that and then innocent people who are cooperating get hurt too. The shared lives thing as mentioned has the same problem as the timer - timer gets lowered by deaths, and people currently leave when it gets too low. It would be the same environment. Although people would be less punished for emergencies, bios, power outages, or network problems. I'm not convinced people would sit around forever for Bloodlust on everything unless they were literally pushing the key as high as it can go for the sake of competition to see what's possible. There are inelegant solutions to that, like restricting the number of times you can use major CDs in a dungeon based on their CD... but I feel like charges like that kind of starts to harm lower keys for people who are just trying their best to persevere and eventually win and kind of defeats the purpose of allowing people to try and try again. You should feel encouraged and empowered to win, doing a dungeon shouldn't be a negative experience - you should be having fun. I feel like that kind of effort of keep trying until you win is wholesome and it shouldn't be ruined by people who just want to also be more competitive because both parties are ultimately trying to have fun in their own way. Maybe if there was a consumable usable when all party members are out of combat and only in a +20 or higher so that those who are pushing the higher keys could just reset things every pull so that would enable these things to be doable as well. But again, maybe not perfect though I'm not sure what would be wrong with it.

I don't think we should look at it as, "without just handing it out." Dungeons should be a viable gearing option and playstyle. Not everyone can or wants to raid or maybe they just prefer M+. Dungeons being limited to once per week would obliterate participation and it would be infinitely harder to get groups going outside of guilds which entirely defeats the purpose of a PuG mode like this. And like a raid, perhaps you should feel empowered to try and try again until you get it and the timer frankly just gets in the way of that. I wouldn't look at the removal of timer as making loot not earned -- you still have to clear the M+ at the level. You did win, and by winning it should be that you earn it just like you do in any other game mode. It's not like you can expire the timer and still get partial loot from the dungeon based on the bosses you cleared. That part would probably be exploited to get specific loot pieces, anyway, so it's not like that avenue could be used anyway.

Man this is a mess. Maybe the timer is fine. I just hate seeing people leave and ruin keys and not being able to pause and finish them. Maybe that's what the system needs - a friggin pause button where everything goes in stasis or something and the ability to replace people. I guess if people could be replaced they'd just cycle people for CDs and such at higher key levels. Gets pretty absurd, again... maybe that consumable for CD reset for group out of combat is actually a good idea so people aren't wasting everyone else's time in those super high keys. Because otherwise, if that's the only other downside to getting rid of the timer, I think that's... actually kind of doable right?

[Asrialol]

Yes, would be more enjoyable without a timer.
Put a timer in 15+, but not in (Mandatory) 10x weekly dungeon runs.

If you want a timer set it to 90 min so people are more relaxed, it would reduce the Toxicity of most groups by a lot IMHO.

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yes, because we do that in every challenging content xD
You would still have to kill the bosses, and do it all in a reasonable time.
Do you really think people would farm +15 if it would take them 3 hours to do so?

10 dungeon runs per week is mandatory? Shit. I barely do one..

[faunski]

While it seems counterintuitive, also remember that the design of m+ HAS to be made with the cutting edge pushers in mind. Not because the game cares for them more, but because they're in a sense a test group to see what works and what doesn't. Any issues that come up in high keys will happen for the medium level pushers in lower keys.

Now, as for the main problem, you can not have a situation where sinking time = better chance of success. You're not supposed to gain better odds by not playing the game. This is exactly what will happen in high keys with death limit. People will wait for optimal CDs, CC, and burst mobs down one by one. At really high levels you get to the point where tank is always at risk of dying without defensives even on one mob. It's not fun, it's not engaging and it for sure is not challenging.

You can implement a whole another style of dungeons, but as for infinetely scaling dungeons, I just don't see any other option than putting them on a timer.

[Wysmark]

Absolutely. I hate how a DC Can ruin a key, and how it is rush rush rush.

Dungeons peaked at Magisters Terrace in TBC, back when Sap, Sheep and such werent just pvp abilities

Granted Im not sure on the specifics and complexities of making sure higher Keys arent just complete-able by every last scrub, but death count sounds interesting if combined with other changes

[Butler to Baby Sloths]

While it seems counterintuitive, also remember that the design of m+ HAS to be made with the cutting edge pushers in mind. Not because the game cares for them more, but because they're in a sense a test group to see what works and what doesn't. Any issues that come up in high keys will happen for the medium level pushers in lower keys.

Now, as for the main problem, you can not have a situation where sinking time = better chance of success. You're not supposed to gain better odds by not playing the game. This is exactly what will happen in high keys with death limit. People will wait for optimal CDs, CC, and burst mobs down one by one. At really high levels you get to the point where tank is always at risk of dying without defensives even on one mob. It's not fun, it's not engaging and it for sure is not challenging.

You can implement a whole another style of dungeons, but as for infinetely scaling dungeons, I just don't see any other option than putting them on a timer.

You could get around the "sit out the bloodlust debuff" problem by re-introducing a mechanic lost to the annals of history: respawning trash. If you take more than say, half an hour to get the next boss dead, you'll find the trash starts respawning behind you (and it wouldn't give trash percentage the second time around).

So there isn't a hard timer for the entire dungeon, but there is a soft-limit to how long you can take to clear it before the dungeon starts dropping hints that maybe you're not quite at that level yet.

[cparle87]

5 or less death +3?
What are you guys doing in there if 5 death are a huge success?

Considering the game gives you like 15 deaths in a 5-man of Torghast when you have godmode powers I'd say allowing 5 deaths to account for things that are just plain unsurvivable in high keys is acceptable.