"1.12.1 made everything easy"

[Schmeebs]

Well I think the point he's making by the title of the thread is that 1.12 didn't MAKE everything easy, as some ppl tried to push. It already was easy. Sure it made it, even easier, yes. But his point was it was already easy to begin with, despite what many people said. The fact that it made it even easier is the irrelevant part.

ew, 1.12 made everything vastly easier.

to a point it will matter? likely not

[Askyl]

it really would not have made a difference high end raiding wise.

Oh it really would. It would change the entire raiding meta. First of all, you wouldnt see many dps warriors at all.

It would for sure make pugs wipe hell a lot more.

But in the end content would still be cleared fairly easily. But saying it wouldnt matter is wrong.

[durenas]

it really would not have made a difference high end raiding wise.

It would shut up all the people who say that MC was always easy. It wasn't. It was a massive pain in the ass, and things like pre-submerge Ragnaros were completely impossible back then.

[Daymanmb]

ok show me one in a speed run comp.
so they are playable yes, viable in the current meta (something i explicitly stated)?

can they, though? After people finished farming HoJ, what use did they have?

No, thats not exactly all you said lol. Many druids tank in raids. Theyre not a favourite of speed runs, only bc they cant pump dps like fury tanks can, not because they cant tank. Thats like saying protection warriors cant tank because theyre not in the speed run meta..

[Volardelis]

LFR wiped on Gul'dan, N'zoth, Garrosh, Elisande (among a number of others) very, very frequently.

I've had LFR groups wipe on Shriekwing because line of sighting and dodging slow moving discs is too hard for your avg lfr player.

Honestly having a boss in LFR that isn't a literal tank training dummy (looking at you Varimathras) is refreshing. It is also funny seeing all the crying on the forums to demand nerfs. Already seen some for Huntsman because of the shade. Reminded me of Nazgrim and how it was 'too hard' for LFR heroes to stop damaging the boss while he was in defensive stance.

[Yriel]

In LFR you can completely ignore mechanics and just tunnel the boss and still win through raw DPS/HPS.

No you can't. Take the Huntsman for example, if anyone keeps attacking the 2. cat the raid just dies, there is nothing you can do. There are several bosses like that in every raid.
LFR was like this in Dragon Soul but even in Pandaria there were quite a few bosses that wiped the raid if anyone messed up.

[DeltaLimaCharlie]

I played at the release of Vanilla. Were there a lot of goofy things and poor design especially early on? Absolutely but honestly starting out I had no idea what would be considered goofy or poor design. I'm sure you can think back to that time and remember all the silly things you did playing Vanilla. Obviously the talents and itemization changes made the game easier but the whole "early talents and itemization was what made Vanilla hard" is blown way out of proportion. Many people I played with back then didn't play with an optimal build, didn't use the appropriate spells, or make the best choices for gear. There weren't many resources out there to even look up that information. For many it was probably their first computer game. I'd wager many people can relate to those experiences.

As a returning player I would have liked to have seen some changes made with tuning and wouldn't have been opposed to patches lining up with phases but there are so many factors as to why Classic WoW is so easy and Vanilla is remembered as being challenging, patching is such a small part of the reason. I remember many people pushing 1.12 being the only or biggest contributor to Classic being "easy", it's not mentioned as often though as far as I can tell.

[Onikaroshi]

I wish we had started with 1.01 or whatever was the launch patch. So people can see what shit we had to work with.

1.1 was the launch patch, and if they did that there would be a lot less fun to be had... 1.1 was a mess, they weren't looking to lose players right off the bat lol.

[Velerios]

"Easier"...if you don't account for the fact that in vanilla, fucking up a raid mechanic can domino into a wipe very quickly.

In LFR you can completely ignore mechanics and just tunnel the boss and still win through raw DPS/HPS.

Yes you can, because healer like me have most of the work because they don't do it. And sorry, but what mechanics in Vanilla? (jump to 1:25)

[Stormwolf64]

And most of you likely struggled with classic and it's raids when it was current. I don't mean the raid itself, but you.

[Heathy]

a big issue back then was the hardware there was a noticable amount of input lag and the game ran for me at best 15-20 fps, being able to play the game with basically zero input lag and a consistent 60 fps, it makes the game significantly easier to play. my old pc could barely play the game the internet was shit and everyone at least those of us who pretty much had dial up or extremely slow dsl were getting a cool 300 ping average. how many times you were essentially just hoping the MT wouldn't randomly DC. and a significant amount of wipes happened because of that.

most ppl don't have video from 2004-5-6 there is some here and there I recorded a bit of my second zg run I ever did and its pretty much the only thing that survived from that hard drive. here it is I remember using a cracked version of fraps and that dropped my frame rate, but that lag was still there without the recording program. fraps only made it a bit worst. timing heals was harder with that level of chuggishness. this is just not there anymore, either it was patched out or just the hardware in general is more responsive. but the game played like shit and that made it hard. imagine trying to play the game like its running in my video, that is why it was hard. because for most ppl it ran like that. also you might aswell mute my video i never planned on sharing it around and the algorithm fucked the audio when I accepted the copywrite claims on the hardbass tracks playing in the background. most of what you find from that period is screenshots. video just didn't come out that well on those old pcs. not without tanking the frame rate into oblivion. which is why I didn't really record anything beyond this, it just wasn't worth it since the quality was so bad. either you had a somewhat decent looking video running at 5fps or you have a 10 fps video that looks like its been through needsmorejpeg several times.

I remember the way the game used to have a weird chuggishness to it and it did used to make timing the landing of heals more difficult to predict. I think I did get a better PC during TBC which gave me more fps but I don't think I had an actual decent fps (30+) in wow until wrath. I did a lot of raiding at sub 20 fps.

[jakeic]

Starting on patch 1.12.1 made the game far easier than most people give it credit for. The talents and items were far stronger by that point than they were in 1.1, additionally, mechanics of classes were changed in particular warriors rage was improved. This compounds into the level of gear each player had available to them, bots also contributed to this (pvp in particular, but any bot that killed to get Edge Master's or what not or grinded consumables), this gear then made the next phase in classic easier than its corresponding patch during vanilla.

So where are we at? More gear means more boss kills, more boss kills means more loot, more loot means stronger raid, stronger raid means easier game. This is literally the game loop and Classic basically broke this compared to the original version. For instance, the server I played on in Vanilla had zero Viscidius (alliance side), zero Ouro, zero C'thun kills before Naxx was released, we're talking about the entire server, my guild (a dad guild) had at least 16 kills by itself on all those bosses, so when we entered Naxx, we entered with a full roster of fury warriors wearing bis gear, a full roster of mages wearing bis gear, etc. Even with these advantages, Naxx was hard for us.

[anon5123]

And sorry, but what mechanics in Vanilla?

Nice logical fallacy. You're taking one example of a raid mechanic from the easiest boss of the easiest raid in vanilla, and extrapolating that to the entire game.

Look at almost any other boss in MC, and there will be a mechanic that can kill you and/or wipe the raid if not handled properly:

Lucifron: Dispels, mind controls
Gehennas: Dispels, rain of fire
Garr: Add tanking, add explosions
Baron Geddon: Bomb, Inferno
Shazzrah: Arcane Explosion, Teleport, Dispels
Golemagg: Add tanking, Earthquake
Majordomo: Add CC, AoE damage
Rag: Almost everything on this fight can fuck you up if you don't handle it properly

Try again.

The mechanics are simpler, but have dire consequences for not executing them properly. That's the difference between vanilla and retail.

[Echocho]

The mechanics are simpler, but have dire consequences for not executing them properly. That's the difference between vanilla and retail.

And in retail mythic raids you wipe if a single person messes up any of the 5-10 mechanics. In Classic you can lose half the raid in most encounters and still kill it.

I love classic, it's a much better game than retail but saying that it's hard is delusional at best, lying at worst.

[hulkgor]

The mechanics are simpler, but have dire consequences for not executing them properly. That's the difference between vanilla and retail.

Seriously? Still doubling down on this nonsense?

[Greyvax]

vanilla was similar to older MMO's where most bosses were just gear checks.

over time, raids became more mechanic heavy to compensate for loot showers. look at raids in retail where there's a laundry list of mechanics for each boss.

[Yamuri]

Remember when classic came out and everyone was praising how much harder it was than retail... then people downed ragnaros before they were 60 and had green gear? Ah the good days of harder content.

[Tumile]

You know this is a lie.
You know damn well those bosses would have been tanked and spanked into oblivion within hours of being released by the more devoted groups/guilds.
You know damn well the saying "it was hard because we didn't know what we were doing" is at least partially true.

Not sure why so many toxic, elitist myths persisted within the Classic community.

the statement is still true tho, player power was increased, boss power was decreased, wether or not it would be easy depends on the players I guess, the fact remains that it was made easier, and not just by a little, it was by quite a lot. the mechanics would still be the same, the only difference would be slightly longer fights really. we had extra debuff slots, we had pre-raid BiS gear that outperformed the actual gear from the raids, we got the updated version of PVP gear, it all depends on the scenario, but if you look at pre-raid BiS gear for MC and compare a warrior from the appropiate patch to what we got in classic, we're talking Double the max DPS output, which obviously makes quite a fucking difference. that helps out in BWL as well, gear became easier and faster to acquire, alt warriors could still do insane DPS and only really lost out in tankyness and a minor amount of damage compared to the BiS geared mains, making it insanely easy to stack warriors in your raid.

theres so many reasons why it made content easier, would the content still be easy? depends who you ask, if you ask me yeah, but I also find Mythic raiding from a mechanical perspective insanely easy. comparing it to getting to Challenger in league, or Faceit level 10 on CSGO, the mechanical skill difference is laughable. it's why I dont like Mythic raiding in wow, and much prefer easier raids, cuz I can play with whoever I want and still kill bosses, where no matter what I have to sit and wait for 10, 50, 100, 200 pulls for the rest of my raid team to learn how to do the fight, maybe there will one day be a fight that I struggle with and they will have to wait for me, regardless, to me it looks like a spiral of negativity.

its also why I prefer CSGO over league, theres a limit to how much you can carry in league, while team play is insanely strong in CSGO, you can just be better than the opponent and flat out 1v5 hard carry, every game.

If all your looking for is mechanically challenging gameplay, wow raiding is a terrible choice imo.

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Remember when classic came out and everyone was praising how much harder it was than retail... then people downed ragnaros before they were 60 and had green gear? Ah the good days of harder content.

no one who knew anything claimed the raids would be hard. it was the rest of the currently "Redundant" content of retail that actually had SOME difficulty to it, like levelling, questing or normal dungeons, even farming and sorting out consumeables.

[Konteil]

it wasnt the classic community it was the retail kids stroking each other off using shitty outdated information and bro-knowledge. It got us gems like: Druids cant tank

16 years of running teh same shit is bound to make even a moron an expert at it. doesnt change the fact that its still fun as hell. and for people that missed a lot of teh raiding scene like me the first time around it was fun. i was deployed whn gates of AQ hit and missed it. so being able to go back and do it even in its current form was amazing for me personally. closest ill get to time travel lol

[Nite92]

it wasnt the classic community it was the retail kids stroking each other off using shitty outdated information and bro-knowledge. It got us gems like: Druids cant tank

Are you high? It is not all the retail players fault. Generally speaking, no retail player I know expected classic to be hard.

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"Easier"...if you don't account for the fact that in vanilla, fucking up a raid mechanic can domino into a wipe very quickly.

In LFR you can completely ignore mechanics and just tunnel the boss and still win through raw DPS/HPS.

That is not true lmao. With good gear, maybe. Your standard lfr group can't do that. Like preach, who wiped 8 hours on nzoth for example.

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I’m not disagreeing, early classic raids are easy as hell no matter how you cut it. That’s doesn’t negate the argument against releasing it with 1.12 because if it’s already easy you might not want it be to even easier.

We did a raid to test that. It is still easy af in questing gear