Making a case for Ranged Tanking in WoW

[Teriz]

Completely negating the "ranged" part of "ranged tank".

Which is an opinion. A fact is that merging/mounting removes the movement "problems" that you keep bringing up.

I fail to see this as a benefit considering, again, it not only offers zero benefits since you still have to worry about melee damage and melee mechanics. The purpose of being at range is precisely not having to worry about melee damage and melee mechanics. On top of that, there's also the downside of having to worry about ranged mechanics as well as all melee mechanics.

The purpose of tanking at ranged is to tank at range period. As for worrying about both melee and ranged mechanics, the tank should have mitigation abilities to deal with that.

You keep saying "tanking at range" is somehow a benefit, and yet you never explain WHY it's a benefit.

In a game where every tank is melee, a tank fighting at range is a stand out, and helps expand the role. Further, I designed the concept to be even more ranged the better the player becomes. So those tanks that stay at range the most are the ones who have shown to have mastered the spec the most.

And again: how will this fight work in fights like mythic Sludgefist? The tanks are linked together, so the "ranged" tank would be forced to be melee the entire time, negating the "ranged" thing.

For that one fight. Whoop dee doo!

It's not an assumption, it's a fact. Encounter mechanics would have to be severely altered and some outright removed to make room for a ranged tank to be viable, and many examples have been given, of both raid and dungeon, which would mean a heavy simplification of the game (colloquially known as "dumb-down").

Again, this is completely untrue. By all means, provide an example of this being the case.

Except that not only was never my argument, but it's also a false comparison, since none of the classes present in the game have "training wheels". Average and skilled, new players and veterans, all use the same tools available their class. I simply pointed out that if you have to add "training wheels" to a class to make it viable, you failed at class design.

And once again; Less skilled will have to use merge more, higher skilled will be using merge less. It's quite simple.

That's like saying the average prot warrior players would tank wielding a shield, but more skilled players would not only be better tanks than the average prot warrior player, but would do so without wielding shields.

Yeah, not the same situation at all.

Re-read your link. It also specifically says that DHs have high self-sustaining thanks to self-healing, and high magic damage reduction, on top of being high mobility. Higher damage is just an afterthought. Again, picking tanks for their DPS is like picking healers for their taking abilities.

Uh huh, here's the very first sentence about Vengeance DH tanks in that link I shared;

Front Runners
Vengeance Demon Hunter
Pros: Vengeance is in a great spot right now, with very high damage output in dungeons mainly from Elysian Decree and Spirit Bomb. Vengeance mitigation improved from BFA with the addition of Fel Devastation baseline, which when paired with the Demonic talent allows more uptime on meta alongside Fiery Brand and Demon Spikes charges as mitigation options. Vengeance is the highest damage tank class and has quite a bit of self healing like usual.

[datguy81]

So just to get the first post back in to view, as even teriz is muddying the waters himself.

So, you want the shield/pet-thing work like Sigma's barrier? Have you ever played sigma for any amount of time? his shield, or any adaptation of it doesn't work with wow, it's placement and movements are based on FPS mechanics and the idea that barriers in overwatch physically block off shots and ranged damage and lets melee damage pass through. Sigma's barrier has gone through multiple patch changes as even in OW it's hard to balance it out without being overly dominant. Secondly, the moment you let go of the deployment button, it's stuck in place and won't move and can only be recalled. It also doesn't transfer damage to Sigma, as he'd be one-shotted with ease if it did.

In an FPS based on player's skills with characters, blizz didn't want players to independently control both the character and the barrier, as it's neither practical or able to be implemented in such a way that someone can do it instinctively. Even in OW, were movement and control of the battlefield are the most important factors this concept never came farther than Sigma's shield, as doesn't solve any problems, it only creates them.

The abilities you listed are both vague, no ranges set and no real limitations on how they really work in game, this just demonstrates that this concept is not only complex, as you aren't even capable to create a working set of actual abilities that make this into a functional concept to begin with. saying that the devs will figure it out is a weak and very poor excuse so don't come up with that. If you have to lock it to a target, it still makes you a melee tank, as effectively the boss is still in melee range with the shield and damaging it, the fact that it is transferred to the player doesn't change the fact that the boss still requires something to be in melee range for it to hit, and it thus being tanked on melee range.

seriously, what are you trying to accomplish with this thread? why come with a solution to a nonexisting problem that nobody asked for? there are no practical use-cases for a ranged tank in wow, no bosses, mobs or pvp elements require a tank to be at range to carry out it's function and it brings no added value in the combat system if it did, and blizz would never implement a class that would require such an extreme overhaul in either new or old content that would invalidate or undermine the existing tank roster. With the vague and near unworkable concepts that have been brought forth, these would most certainly require mechanics that only this tank can fulfill and thus invalidate existing tanks.

If it was only to add a FUNCTIONAL tank class/spec that was extremely complex, yet rewarding to play, then at least this thread would have it's merit. But, since you only want to push a RANGED tank (under the guise of a tinker for the umpteenth time), this thread is going to go nowhere.

You made your case, tried to convince others that a ranged tank could/would work and that wow needed it, but you clearly didn't succeed, as just about every poster in this thread basically denounced the idea.

Pretty sure thats why they did not add any more ranged tanks needed after SSC and Gruul. It would not be something viable to the game. I expect this to go the same way when pvp is brought up avioded

[kenn9530]

Nah, they wouldn't have to touch the pet system. The mechanics at play to make this work would only be applicable for that particular class, not the existing pet classes.

If you want a ranged tank that uses which is a pet not matter what you want to call it, then yes it would require a complete remake of the entire system as the current version only works in a very basic functionality, where an actual tank role requires much more.

Anything that a player controls that isnt itself is considered a pet and uses the current pet system, still doesnt change the fact there is no need for any new classes, there are already too many classes to choose from and many that require constant work to keep them even remotely viable, new classes just create more imbalance in the game.

[Teriz]

So just to get the first post back in to view, as even teriz is muddying the waters himself.

So, you want the shield/pet-thing work like Sigma's barrier? Have you ever played sigma for any amount of time? his shield, or any adaptation of it doesn't work with wow, it's placement and movements are based on FPS mechanics and the idea that barriers in overwatch physically block off shots and ranged damage and lets melee damage pass through. Sigma's barrier has gone through multiple patch changes as even in OW it's hard to balance it out without being overly dominant. Secondly, the moment you let go of the deployment button, it's stuck in place and won't move and can only be recalled. It also doesn't transfer damage to Sigma, as he'd be one-shotted with ease if it did.

In an FPS based on player's skills with characters, blizz didn't want players to independently control both the character and the barrier, as it's neither practical or able to be implemented in such a way that someone can do it instinctively. Even in OW, were movement and control of the battlefield are the most important factors this concept never came farther than Sigma's shield, as doesn't solve any problems, it only creates them.

I've already stated multiple times that the barrier doesn't function like a standard shield or barrier. Also I was merely utilizing Sigma's projection mechanic and nothing else. You're making quite a few assumptions here.

The abilities you listed are both vague, no ranges set and no real limitations on how they really work in game, this just demonstrates that this concept is too complex, as you aren't even capable to create a working set of actual abilities that make this into a functional concept to begin with. saying that the devs will figure it out is a weak and very poor excuse so don't come up with that. If you have to lock it to a target, it still makes you a melee tank, as effectively the boss is still in melee range with the shield and damaging it, the fact that it is transferred to the player doesn't change the fact that the boss still requires something to be in melee range for it to hit, and it thus being tanked on melee range.

Where did I say that the devs need to figure out ranges? I've also explained several times the limitations of those abilities.

You made your case, tried to convince others that a ranged tank could/would work and that wow needed it, but you clearly didn't succeed, as just about every poster in this thread basically denounced the idea.

Cool. So why are you still posting in this thread?

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Anything that a player controls that isnt itself is considered a pet and uses the current pet system, still doesnt change the fact there is no need for any new classes, there are already too many classes to choose from and many that require constant work to keep them even remotely viable, new classes just create more imbalance in the game.

Interesting argument to make considering that the expansions which introduced new classes tend to be regarded as the best WoW expansions in terms of content and class balance.

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I recommend you actually play the game before commenting further. This idea is completely idiotic and shows your lack of game knowledge. IT SIMPLY DOES NOT WORK.

You have not “shown” how it would work. You have simply spewed random ass comments that do not address actual issues, further your “solutions” do not work for wow raiding. Basically what you have said in this thread is, “I am right, the 400 people all telling me I’m wrong are the wrong ones”. In any competitive gameplay this simply does not work. I can’t understand why you can’t seem to get that through your head. Any time someone has explained to you why it does not work you ignore it and accuse them of having some personal vendetta against you. And any time someone brings another part of the game up you essentially say “I won’t talk about it until you all tell me I’m right”, even though there are 22 pages of experienced players telling you what a dumb idea this is for the current game design.

Please close this thread.

So no specific examples?

That's unfortunate. As for demanding that this thread be closed; No one is forcing you to post in this thread. Feel free to post elsewhere.

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So you refuse to discuss ideas with people unless they agree with you? That's called an echo-chamber, not a discussion. You're running away from having to discuss PvP. You're literally refusing to discuss your own concept.

I refuse to discuss ideas with individuals who aren't seeking an honest discussion.

Um, no. They have arguments against PvE.

Then they can continue to bring up those arguments in regards to PvE. If you're ignoring my points in PvE, I'm not going to expand a pointless discussion into PvP. Further, if you think the concept is DOA in PvE, why would you want to discuss a DOA concept in PvP?

[Clouds2]

There are 22 pages of people giving you the reasons they don’t work and your response every time can be summed up to “Blahblah I am right, everybody else is wrong” this thread is completely non-productive which is why it should be closed. And this is essentially an I want a “tinker tank spec” thread. The fact of the matter is this:
a) this is a terrible idea that does not work with current game design, that is a fact
b) your understanding of the game and experience in the game has shown to be very close to a round figure
c) blizzard will clearly not do this as it does not work in the current design of the game

So you constant telling everybody else you are right and they are wrong comes down to this, this won’t happen, so move on. Good day

[Teriz]

There are 22 pages of people giving you the reasons they don’t work and your response every time can be summed up to “Blahblah I am right, everybody else is wrong”m this thread is completely non-productive which is why it should be closed. And this is essentially an I want a “tinker tank spec” thread.

And this clearly shows that you didn't actually read those discourses.

The fact of the matter is this:

Those weren't facts. Those were entirely your opinion.

[Clouds2]

Trust me, they are facts. Give up, this idea has been the proven to be incompatible with the game. End of story. Come up with a new idea for attention. This won’t happen.

[Ielenia]

Which is an opinion.

No, that's a fact. A ranged class' main feature is to perform its role away from melee range, i.e. being too far from its target so it's not hit by melee damage and/or mechanics. A feature that your "ranged" tank would completely lack.

A fact is that merging/mounting removes the movement "problems" that you keep bringing up.

Except it doesn't, as explained numerous times already.

The purpose of tanking at ranged is to tank at range period.

And yet it completely fails at the "ranged" part because it's still taking melee damage and having to worry about melee mechanics. And having to go into melee often.

As for worrying about both melee and ranged mechanics, the tank should have mitigation abilities to deal with that.

So you're saying the ranged tank would have to use mitigation to have to deal with 100% avoidable damage? By 'avoidable' I mean damage he would never take if he stood at melee.

In a game where every tank is melee, a tank fighting at range is a stand out, and helps expand the role. Further, I designed the concept to be even more ranged the better the player becomes. So those tanks that stay at range the most are the ones who have shown to have mastered the spec the most.

That is not a benefit. You're literally saying people would pick ranged tanking because people pick ranged tanking. You repeatedly make that claim yet you never say why it's a benefit.

So I'll repeat the question: why is "tanking at range" a benefit?

For that one fight. Whoop dee doo!

So instead of addressing a very real issue, you're just dismissing it?

Again, this is completely untrue. By all means, provide an example of this being the case.

You are literally admitting you're ignoring what people are saying, considering many examples have been given! Sludgefist's chain mechanic. Sire Denathrius' carnage ability. Stone General Grashaal's Seismic Upheaval. And those three are just from one single raid instance.

And once again; Less skilled will have to use merge more, higher skilled will be using merge less. It's quite simple.

What is "quite simple" is how you fail at class design. I'll repeat: if you have to add "training wheels" to a class to make it viable for the average player, then you fail at class design.

Uh huh, here's the very first sentence about Vengeance DH tanks in that link I shared;

And now take that quote of yours and read everything that is written between the parts you bolded. And then ask high-end raiding and mythic+ guilds why demon hunter tanks are sought-after. Here's a hint: it's not because of their high damage.

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I refuse to discuss ideas with individuals who aren't seeking an honest discussion.

The projection is insurmountable. Again, we are trying to have an honest discussion. You, on the other hand, are not. Because every time we bring examples you either hand-wave it away, or present a "solution" (in HEAVY quotation marks) that either doesn't address the problem at all, or presents even more problems. Sometimes both. And yet you complain about us being dishonest when we point out the flaws in your logic and ideas.

Then they can continue to bring up those arguments in regards to PvE. If you're ignoring my points in PvE, I'm not going to expand a pointless discussion into PvP. Further, if you think the concept is DOA in PvE, why would you want to discuss a DOA concept in PvP?

But they don't care about PvE. They care about PvP which is what they enjoy playing. Just like I never asked you about PvP because I don't care about PvP. I might address PvP after you fix your PvE ideas.

[Clouds2]

No, that's a fact. A ranged class' main feature is to perform its role away from melee range, i.e. being too far from its target so it's not hit by melee damage and/or mechanics. A feature that your "ranged" tank would completely lack.


Except it doesn't, as explained numerous times already.


And yet it completely fails at the "ranged" part because it's still taking melee damage and having to worry about melee mechanics. And having to go into melee often.


So you're saying the ranged tank would have to use mitigation to have to deal with 100% avoidable damage? By 'avoidable' I mean damage he would never take if he stood at melee.


That is not a benefit. You're literally saying people would pick ranged tanking because people pick ranged tanking. You repeatedly make that claim yet you never say why it's a benefit.

So I'll repeat the question: why is "tanking at range" a benefit?


So instead of addressing a very real issue, you're just dismissing it?


You are literally admitting you're ignoring what people are saying, considering many examples have been given! Sludgefist's chain mechanic. Sire Denathrius' carnage ability. Stone General Grashaal's Seismic Upheaval. And those three are just from one single raid instance.


What is "quite simple" is how you fail at class design. I'll repeat: if you have to add "training wheels" to a class to make it viable for the average player, then you fail at class design.


And now take that quote of yours and read everything that is written between the parts you bolded. And then ask high-end raiding and mythic+ guilds why demon hunter tanks are sought-after. Here's a hint: it's not because of their high damage.

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The projection is insurmountable. Again, we are trying to have an honest discussion. You, on the other hand, are not. Because every time we bring examples you either hand-wave it away, or present a "solution" (in HEAVY quotation marks) that either doesn't address the problem at all, or presents even more problems. Sometimes both. And yet you complain about us being dishonest when we point out the flaws in your logic and ideas.

By the way, “veg are sought after because of their high damage” lol. If the OP is linking a guide from wowhead as his argument, it proves his game knowledge is low.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/st...nks&dataset=90

[arkanon]

By the way, “veg are sought after because of their high damage” lol. If the OP is linking a guide from wowhead as his argument, it proves his game knowledge is low.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/st...nks&dataset=90

Ironically, they are popular because of their extremely high mobility, and ability to deal damage with sigils. This is important because of the extremely high movement requirements on tanks in high M+. This is one of the many, MANY reasons this shambles of an idea doesn't work.

[Teriz]

No, that's a fact. A ranged class' main feature is to perform its role away from melee range, i.e. being too far from its target so it's not hit by melee damage and/or mechanics. A feature that your "ranged" tank would completely lack.

And as I've stated, the better you get, the more at range you can tank with this concept.

Except it doesn't, as explained numerous times already.

Explain it one more time please.

And yet it completely fails at the "ranged" part because it's still taking melee damage and having to worry about melee mechanics. And having to go into melee often.

Taking melee damage while fighting from 40 yds away is still being ranged.

So you're saying the ranged tank would have to use mitigation to have to deal with 100% avoidable damage? By 'avoidable' I mean damage he would never take if he stood at melee.

Considering the realities of the spec, I don't see how that could be avoided.

That is not a benefit. You're literally saying people would pick ranged tanking because people pick ranged tanking. You repeatedly make that claim yet you never say why it's a benefit.

So you're saying that if Blizzard created a workable ranged tank, people wouldn't play it simply because it would usher in a new gameplay style for the role?

So I'll repeat the question: why is "tanking at range" a benefit?

Already discussed.

So instead of addressing a very real issue, you're just dismissing it?

What is there to address? If 90% of the tanks in WoW are melee, obviously a ranged tank would have to make sacrifices in some fights for the good of game balance. Let's not pretend that the range tank having to spend a few fights entirely in melee negates the entire concept.

You are literally admitting you're ignoring what people are saying, considering many examples have been given! Sludgefist's chain mechanic. Sire Denathrius' carnage ability. Stone General Grashaal's Seismic Upheaval. And those three are just from one single raid instance.

Read back through this thread, I've addressed those fights multiple times.

What is "quite simple" is how you fail at class design. I'll repeat: if you have to add "training wheels" to a class to make it viable for the average player, then you fail at class design.

And as always you use hyperbole to dismiss a concept simply because you don't like it. See the tank damage example.

And now take that quote of yours and read everything that is written between the parts you bolded. And then ask high-end raiding and mythic+ guilds why demon hunter tanks are sought-after. Here's a hint: it's not because of their high damage.

Which doesn't change the fact that them being the highest DPS tank in the game is mentioned quite clearly as a reason to pick them. That's a far cry from your earlier statement that tank DPS was "meaningless".

The projection is insurmountable. Again, we are trying to have an honest discussion. You, on the other hand, are not. Because every time we bring examples you either hand-wave it away, or present a "solution" (in HEAVY quotation marks) that either doesn't address the problem at all, or presents even more problems. Sometimes both. And yet you complain about us being dishonest when we point out the flaws in your logic and ideas.

And once again, if you think the concept is DOA in PvE, why would you want to discuss it in PvP? I think we both know the answer to that question.

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By the way, “veg are sought after because of their high damage” lol. If the OP is linking a guide from wowhead as his argument, it proves his game knowledge is low.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/st...nks&dataset=90

Interestingly I never made that argument. The actual argument is that there are tanks with higher DPS than other tanks, and that tank DPS is far from meaningless. This argument emerged because @Ielenia initially argued that a tank doing higher DPS than other tanks would be a problem.

[Manzanetti]

I just remembered one time that I posted a suggestion on the official Blizzard forums about a new class (kind of a Spellbreaker.) It was around Cataclysm I think: I thought that it was a problem that Paladins were the only ones to use plate items with intellect, so my solution to that was a convoluted one: creating a whole new class with everything that it implies. The thread had good reception.

Some time later, Blizzard announced the changes to the itemization (now items would give intellect/agility/strength depending on your spec) and puf, the problem was solved, just like that. It was SO humbling. That day I learnt that game devs know their shit, and they are miles ahead of anything I can come up with from the outside.

This thread reminded me of mine, with the difference that the problem here is one you just made up (no clamor among the fanbase for a ranged tank), your solution is even more convoluted than mine (a class with mechanics that would break the game) and you can't see all that despite the bad reception.

[Teriz]

I just remembered one time that I posted a suggestion on the official Blizzard forums about a new class (kind of a Spellbreaker.) It was around Cataclysm I think: I thought that it was a problem that Paladins were the only ones to use plate items with intellect, so my solution to that was a convoluted one: creating a whole new class with everything that it implies. The thread had good reception.

Some time later, Blizzard announced the changes to the itemization (now items would give intellect/agility/strength depending on your spec) and puf, the problem was solved, just like that. It was SO humbling. That day I learnt that game devs know their shit, and they are miles ahead of anything I can come up with from the outside.

This thread reminded me of mine, with the difference that the problem here is one you just made up (no clamor among the fanbase for a ranged tank), your solution is even more convoluted than mine (a class with mechanics that would break the game) and you can't see all that despite the bad reception.

Why would you think that an itemization issue would be as complex as a new tanking concept?

[kenn9530]

Interesting argument to make considering that the expansions which introduced new classes tend to be regarded as the best WoW expansions in terms of content and class balance.

What are you basing this from, any expansion that has launched a new class meant the new class was OP in at least 1 or more of its specs and other classes were not even remotely viable for a long time, when a new class is put ingame other specs are barely even worked on and ignored, launching a new class means nothing in terms of what that expansion has in terms of content.

There are too many classes in WoW as it is, priority should always be to make what the game already has good and not just add a new class for the sake of it.

[arkanon]

Why would you think that an itemization issue would be as complex as a new tanking concept?

Except this isn't a new tanking concept. This is a handful of random ideas, almost none of which function in the current game. Some of your ideas would require the combat system to be completely redesigned, all to accommodate a "range tank" that has to spend most of its time in melee anyway, and when it is at range, it's job is twice as hard as other tanks, as they are hit by melee AND range mechanics.

You have still completely failed to address how they would deal with fast paced heavy movement game modes, including m+ and pvp.

[Teriz]

What are you basing this from, any expansion that has launched a new class meant the new class was OP in at least 1 or more of its specs and other classes were not even remotely viable for a long time, when a new class is put ingame other specs are barely even worked on and ignored, launching a new class means nothing in terms of what that expansion has in terms of content.

MoP proves otherwise.

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Except this isn't a new tanking concept. This is a handful of random ideas, almost none of which function in the current game. Some of your ideas would require the combat system to be completely redesigned, all to accommodate a "range tank" that has to spend most of its time in melee anyway, and when it is at range, it's job is twice as hard as other tanks, as they are hit by melee AND range mechanics.

1. The combat system wouldn't need to be redesigned. That's pure hyperbole.
2. The better the player is as the mechanics, the more time they will spend fighting at ranged.

You have still completely failed to address how they would deal with fast paced heavy movement game modes, including m+....

The Merge/Mount ability says hello.

My criteria for discussing PvP has not changed.

[arkanon]

MoP proves otherwise.

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1. The combat system wouldn't need to be redesigned. That's pure hyperbole.
2. The better the player is as the mechanics, the more time they will spend fighting at ranged.



The Merge/Mount ability says hello.

My criteria for discussing PvP has not changed.

So for the duration of a m+ run, your "range tank" would fight in melee....and no, your point 2 is just idiotic - a skilled player does everything they can go ensure the smoothest possible run - most bosses have range mechanics that 1 shot a player, in both melee and range, and you want one player to deal with BOTH those mechanics, sometimes simultaneously.

You are showing a stunning lack of gameplay knowledge here, and honestly, you are starting to hurt your other fan concepts by this glorious display of pure ignorance.

[ozzynclyde]

Yall.. this is a troll. Was banned before and is heading down that road again. Doing the same garbage as previously.

It was entertaining but I think it's time for mods to close this down haha

[arkanon]

Yall.. this is a troll. Was banned before and is heading down that road again. Doing the same garbage as previously.

It was entertaining but I think it's time for mods to close this down haha

I genuinely don't think this is trolling. Some troll posts by OP? Yeah, no doubt about it. But the premise they are pushing is not trolling - they just have extremely limited understanding of tanking, m+, pvp, and gameplay in general.

It's the kind of concept what would work fine in open world content, but has literally no purpose there.

The core gameplay systems in wow are raids, m+, and pvp. OP has entirely failed to show how this would or could work in any of those situations, without completely removing it's one unique feature - tanking from range.

[Teriz]

So for the duration of a m+ run, your "range tank" would fight in melee....

It is amazing that after hundreds of posts you still believe that.

and no, your point 2 is just idiotic - a skilled player does everything they can go ensure the smoothest possible run -

And nothing in this concept prevents them from doing that.

most bosses have range mechanics that 1 shot a player, in both melee and range, and you want one player to deal with BOTH those mechanics, sometimes simultaneously.

Wouldn't a skilled player know when to avoid those mechanics? For example if you're entering a phase where a mechanic would one-shot a player at range, why wouldn't this tanking concept merge into melee range until that phase ends? The same would apply to a melee 1-shot mechanic.

Once again, it's as if you're not even reading the concept and just making ridiculous judgement calls and assumptions.