When did Modern WoW start?

[Ludek]

WoD was the breakpoint.

We can argue that "classic RPG WoW" died with Cata, yet both Cata and MoP in their core concepts are still the same as their predecessors, not so many game-changing stuff introduced there (and yes, I would not consider dungeon finder and talent system revmap as the game-changing stuff).

But with WoD we enter "World of Systemcraft" where each expansion gets "a new and exciting system, which seems fresh at the beginning, then we find it's flawed, and then they try to patch with even more systems, also the mission table".

We even got started with "endless currency grind" in WoD - sure Apexis Crystals were less useful than even anima nowdays, yet theirs "fill up the bar random dailies" were the beta version of current world quests (they failed, yes, but still they were the beginning).

[Stormdash]

The talent design dates back to MOP.

The core power progression and gameplay loop dates back to Legion and unfortunately since in Legion it wasn't noticeably un-fun - there's something special about a lore-rich weapon - Blizzard takes people liking Legion as proof this is just how they are supposed to do it now.

[WowIsDead64]

People saying cata started it, but cata kept much of the familiarities and just added LFG for raids. It still had the old talent system. MoP is truly where at least the second, if not current, age of WoW began.

No. Old talent trees were cut in mid Beta to simplify them. In Cata Blizzard decided, that heroics and raids weren't for casuals, while not introducing any other endgame content. Except Tol'Barad, nobody liked. Then they continued with Molten Front in 4.2, that was also that MOP-like claustrophobic location, that was also completely pointless. At that point nobody thought, that it was global tendency, not just local design mistakes, that would be fixed in next xpack. Yeah 3 new heroics and LFR in 4.3 were great, but it was a little bit too late and, as we all know, this content didn't get any real further support in MOP. Yeah, heroics were made easier in MOP. May be even way too easy. But their major rewards were gated behind rep grinds and therefore many players just didn't have time to actually do them, because all time was going to daily grinds. It was point, when heroics actually died as major kind of endgame content. And LFR died due to it's overtuning, that killed whole purpose of casual raiding.

[Wilfire]

MoP was the breakpoint for me.

Pre-MoP you could happily raid in a normal or a hc but not full hc guild and be content with your performance as a raider. Have fun with friends and all that.

In MoP they added curve and CE achievements. Basically they added an explicit metric system to classify raiders into good raiders and trash raiders.

Pre-MoP having fun in a below average guild never bothered me. I was having a great time. With the addition of curve and CE, I simultaneously can't raid at a below-CE level because it feels bad and the game is flaunting it in your face but raiding at CE level makes me miserable because it's stressful.

[Resheph]

In Vanilla.

I mean, WoW was designed to be the dumbed-down, easy-mode, less-hardcore alternative to Everquest.

Vanilla added welfare epics (Darkmoon Faire, "Tier 0.5" dungeon set). They added smaller 20 man raids for those scrubs that couldn't get a small army together to play a game.

Accessibility has always been a goal in WoW. If it wasn't, it wouldn't have survived past TBC.

The condescension, entitlement and plain false narrative drips from every word in this post.

No, WOW was not designed to be a dumbed down Everquest. Everquest had moronically simple "raids" and no questing system, perfect for some people confusing harcare with mindless grind but a deterrence to allow MMO's to break through to the mainstream.
WOW was created as the first modern MMO, and hit so many things right that it obliberated all expectations of what kind of reach a MMO could have.

"Welfare epics", a stupid term in itself, are not in place in Vanilla, you are talking about some blues that not even the most stuck up gamers minded in those days, as epics were raid only. I actually had someone in tears in my guild in the pre-TBC event as he had gotten his first epic ever from it.
The people like you that were complaining about everyone getting epics were in force in wotlk with badge gear. But this was not a vanilla phenomenon at all.

I really, really wonder about what kind of warped mind you must have to feel that you can call people scrubs for wanting to do 20 man raid, especially as smaller raids were exactly the big advance in the game after Vanilla.

[Cyram]

I'd say WOTLK.


- We had 2 recycled raids (Naxx, Onyxia)
- We had raids like Obsidian Sanctum... I mean, a 1-boss, 3-sub-bosses raid all in one small room?
- Argent Tourna-meh-nt
- We had the introduction to the dungeon finder tool
- We had a dungeon that was so universally hated they had to put a freaking mount so people would do it and not quit on the spot.
- Dungeons weren't as hard as either the previous expansion nor the expansion after.
- Wintergrasp
- Isle of Conquest and Strand of the Ancients.

People look at WOTLK with hugely lich-colored glasses, but seriously everything people bitch about right now was first seen during WOTLK.

Impersonal PvE content? LFD tool.
Rehashed content? the raids.
Cut content? Tons.
Shitty pvp stuff? I mean... they removed 2/3 of the WOTLK-born bgs. And if people complained so much about Ashran and not about Wintergrasp, that's because they never really experienced Wintergrasp.

Hell, apart from Ulduar and ICC we had recycled looks for the tiers (Naxx), or one simple set with a couple recolors (tier 9 from the argent raid). So they even phoned that in.

[patrik9321]

2004-2021, the not fun era.

[Polarthief]

Cataclysm, once they nerfed dungeons to be pissbaby easy.
Cata at launch actually *wasn't* all that casual-friendly, but then they nerfed dungeons to oblivion and that was when they started the downward turn.

[patrik9321]

In Vanilla.

I mean, WoW was designed to be the dumbed-down, easy-mode, less-hardcore alternative to Everquest.

Vanilla added welfare epics (Darkmoon Faire, "Tier 0.5" dungeon set). They added smaller 20 man raids for those scrubs that couldn't get a small army together to play a game.

Accessibility has always been a goal in WoW. If it wasn't, it wouldn't have survived past TBC.

Dude just reading what you wrote is giving me a headache. How does your mind literally go in circles on you like that and it doesn't throw you into a violent fit of confused rage?

You start your forum post with bashing WoW for being dumbed down before acknowledging that if it wasn't "dumbed down" it wouldn't be in existence. SO YOU'RE SAYING YOU WANT SOMETHING THAT CAN'T EXIST. Dude, wtf? I think my I.Q. just dropped 50 pts reading your post.

[Electric Lighter]

People saying cata started it, but cata kept much of the familiarities and just added LFG for raids. It still had the old talent system. MoP is truly where at least the second, if not current, age of WoW began.

If we are talking about the social aspect... I would say Cata. Guild perks are the system that changed guilds and really spawned the mass recruitment frenzy into guilds that simply collected players.

[Chrno]

WotLK (followed closely by cata) had the biggest change of philosophy in the way the game is played.

There is no single expansion or event. It was gradual

[patrik9321]

Cataclysm, once they nerfed dungeons to be pissbaby easy.
Cata at launch actually *wasn't* all that casual-friendly, but then they nerfed dungeons to oblivion and that was when they started the downward turn.

Polarthief is one of those assholes IRL who could never be the asshole jock that he always dreamed of being since he lacked the athleticism required to dominate in a sport. So he instead took his toxic attitude into the realm of an MMORPG and instead of desiring to make friends with people and be part of a massively multiplayer experience, what he really wanted was to dominate everybody and then lord it over them. Except once again he just couldn't measure up, never quite making it to top raid status but definitely wasn't a casual player either, so rather than continue his long boring trek into the hell that is playing WoW competitively, he instead decided to aim his sights downward towards the players just trying to get their moneys worth after buying a game from an ENTERTAINMENT industry.

Polarthief is the type of guy who is really an asshole, but then complains about how girls don't want "nice guys" and how he'll never get laid because he's "too nice." When in reality he is just overlooking everything the "asshole" he sees does that is nice for his girlfriend and instead focuses in on everything he does wrong because that makes it easier to justify his shitty pessimistic outlook on the universe.

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The main issue with WoW is that it's replay value is crap. If it wasn't, players wouldn't be complaining constantly about new content because they have like 10 expansions of content to go back and play. To be a consistent long term player of WoW you HAVE to be insane because you keep doing the same thing expecting a different result. It's like being a woman at a bar and instead of talking to the handsome guy who bought you a drink and sizzled up to you with a compliment, you instead chose to go with the greasy jerkoff who lives in his parents basement and tried some pickup neg on you which made you feel self conscious.

[Blackmist]

Dude just reading what you wrote is giving me a headache. How does your mind literally go in circles on you like that and it doesn't throw you into a violent fit of confused rage?

You start your forum post with bashing WoW for being dumbed down before acknowledging that if it wasn't "dumbed down" it wouldn't be in existence. SO YOU'RE SAYING YOU WANT SOMETHING THAT CAN'T EXIST. Dude, wtf? I think my I.Q. just dropped 50 pts reading your post.

I think it dropped long before you got to my post.

[sam86]

Well, perhaps to you those were significant parts of the game, but I really don't see the difference. All that weapon skill did was make you spend some time (once per character) if you played a melee character and dropped a weapon of type that you haven't used yet. Spell ranks were irrelevant for basically anyone besides healers and maybe in PvP mages with rank 1 Frostbolt. The talent system didn't actually bring any value, almost every player who did end game content (which besides vanilla was basically the only content that ever mattered) just looked up a cookie cutter build and went with that. Kind of like after the whole talent system overhaul, except now people actually sometimes swap out some talents depending on the fight (PvE) or matchup (PvP).
Reagents were just clutter in the bag, not anything that actually changed the game in any relevant way.

Perhaps it's just a difference between the way we play the game, but to me, the only changes that actually affect the game significantly were the ones that changed the way I did (relevant end-game) content. Having to spend some additional time grinding something (whether it's weapon skills, professions, going to buy reagents, or grinding artifazerite power) is hardly something I consider the part of the core gameplay, just additional chores. If they suddenly removed summoning stones now, it wouldn't be a revolution in gameplay to me. Just another chore to do if I want to do PvE, but ultimately (besides wasting my time) not affecting the gameplay I care about.

so how exactly still wrath is most changes? u didn't answer my question
if u mean wrath started 'casual' end-content even that concept TBC wins by miles over wrath with how tokens gets u gear better than raiding itself outside of Sunwell, and how they turned quests to almost pure solo content instead of need groups in most zones

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I would say:

Vanilla-BC: WTF are we doing - era
WOTLK-Cata: We could kill every lorecharacter left - era
MoP - WoD: lets try some weird shit era
legion - BfA: I heared you like grinding - era
SL - ??: Lets just take stuff from every other era- era

while ur description accurate, it fits only the lore part, not gameplay part

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Thankfully we're in the best era of the game!

not sure trolling or not, but we are far from best, in fact SL is shaping towards another WoD: great content, but tiny

[patrik9321]

I think it dropped long before you got to my post.

Maybe your mere presence on the forums just causes a giant IQ melting aura that extends throughout the entire website

[sam86]

WotLK (followed closely by cata) had the biggest change of philosophy in the way the game is played.

There is no single expansion or event. It was gradual

i can easily point to WoD as first exp where u can cover everything u want by pure solo content without the need to even /hi anyone, wrath didn't have that option, nor cata

[TheTaurenChieftain]

I always find it funny that so many people argue that modern WoW is too casual or caters too much to the casuals when it in fact does not do this. Old WoW is much more casual friendly than modern WoW.

Also, who are the people that mostly left WoW over the years? They are mostly casuals. No casual player wants to look up boss guides and read through multiple pages of guides just to know how to play their class. There are also so many systems on top of systems that turn casuals away from the game more than anyone else.

Also the singleplayer content (which casuals often participate in) is so un-engaging and boring that most casuals won't even engage in those systems. Current WoW players don't realize how complicated and unintuitive and unrewarding most of the current systems are because the only players who currently play WoW are mostly the hardcore player crowd.

I would argue that modern WoW is more anti-casual than old WoW ever was. Old WoW was a much more enjoyable game for casuals than current WoW.

All the current players who argue that WoW has become too casual are mostly hardcore players. Most of the current WoW playerbase doesn't even know the mentality of most casual WoW players because all those casual players already left.

[VinceVega]

so how exactly still wrath is most changes? u didn't answer my question
if u mean wrath started 'casual' end-content even that concept TBC wins by miles over wrath with how tokens gets u gear better than raiding itself outside of Sunwell, and how they turned quests to almost pure solo content instead of need groups in most zones

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while ur description accurate, it fits only the lore part, not gameplay part

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not sure trolling or not, but we are far from best, in fact SL is shaping towards another WoD: great content, but tiny

In that case:

Vanilla-BC: WTF are we doing - era
WOTLK-Cata: Let's get accessible, accessible - era
MoP - WoD: Why change what is working, also you are under homearrest era
legion - BfA: I heared you like grinding - era
SL - ??: I heared you like grinding only a little bit- era

[ONCHEhap]

While the change was especially marked with cata,the change noticeably started during WotLK

[ButterBeast]

in Wrath of the lich king.