The Machine of Death Broke - Why?

[Engal]

Except the Drought and the Arbiter's downfall are not linked.

Denathrius kept the anima reserve he had in revendreth and did not dispatch it as he did before. He used the pretext of the Arbiter's to retain the Anima he had.

The arbiter's downfall just made all soul went into the maw instead of being dispatched into the SL, the Anima of those soul went directly to the Jailer's realm.

Denathrius had nothing to do with this, directly.

Drought !== Arbiter's attack

[FuxieDK]

It was specificially that Ysera was in the last batch of wild seeds to arrive. Ursoc we only know due to the the Ardenweald animation, but had no particular information on when it happened attached. Though given the events of Val'sharah, he would necessarily have to have arrived in the same batch.

We can pretty much rule out Xavius due to this however, since there was at least some time between their arrival and the drought. Xavius would have been killed shortly after Ursoc.

Ursoc was killed quite some time after Ysera.. Besides, Ysera was escorted to Ardenweald by Elune personally, probably bypassing Arbiter completely.
Ursoc was the last (known) soul to go to Shadowlands the "normal" way.

From here on, we only have speculation..

For me, Xavius makes the most sense.
For me, Argus makes ZERO sense, as it's too late in the time line, and I don't think Titans go to Shadowlands when they die.

[Thrif]

Damn, I hope it was not Argus. This is how maw got created? So it’s impossible, because we killed him later. Must be someone before we killed Arthas.

The maw has always existed, the event that we talk about is when the arbiter got assaulted and was unable to judge souls anymore. So all souls are funneled to the maw and none to bastion, ardenweald etc, when only the worst ones were supposed to be sent there.

[Myradin]

They're still Kyrian at the root, who travel out of the Shadowlands all the time.
And they're shown to be directly tied to Helya who has also been able to communicate at least into and out of the Maw.

Breaking the helm was just to shatter the veil itself for whatever final plan there is. There's also Kyrian who were very much following the Jailer yet who traveled around just fine, like Devos.

So dunno where you're getting that they're trapped there. If they were genuinely trapped, shattered sky or not, they wouldn't be able to leave.

Except normally when Kyrians come to take people we don't see big blue people show up. We only see them when we're also dead and technically in the shadowlands, as spirit healers.

[MrLachyG]

Helya was the first Va'kyr, she should be able to deliver herself to the Maw, if the Arbiter didn't send her there herself. I mean, working with the Jailer himself to cause death and destruction onto the world is pretty Maw worthy.

Also, Helya being in the Shadowlands is pretty evident that no such Titan afterlife exists. Therefore, Argus too must have gone to the Shadowlands.

Helya isn’t a Titan though

[huth]

Anima is the essence of every living soul. The Shadowlands is the place, where souls rest (eternally) after parting from their living bodies. If we assume, that anima is needed to sustain the realms of the shadowlands, which are the habitats for the souls, and that the souls perish should their habitats perish, then that gives us 3 options on how anima works:

We already know how it works. Souls generate Anima through their actions and status while alive. Once they die, they no longer produce any significant quantities. The greater your importance and deeds, the more anima you have.

Ursoc was killed quite some time after Ysera.. Besides, Ysera was escorted to Ardenweald by Elune personally, probably bypassing Arbiter completely.
Ursoc was the last (known) soul to go to Shadowlands the "normal" way.

From here on, we only have speculation..

For me, Xavius makes the most sense.
For me, Argus makes ZERO sense, as it's too late in the time line, and I don't think Titans go to Shadowlands when they die.

Xavius died within hours of Ursoc at most. Ursoc spent some time being nursed before the drought began. So Xavius is out.

[Jester Joe]

Except normally when Kyrians come to take people we don't see big blue people show up. We only see them when we're also dead and technically in the shadowlands, as spirit healers.

Kyrians aren't spirit healers.

You do this as part of the Kyrian campaign. You go to Azeroth to find someone dead, and fetch their soul.

And putting aside whether or not you want to consider it the Shadowlands or not, I'd say it isn't since we now have a definite Shadowlands personally, that still doesn't change that if they can travel there, it's pretty clear they'd be able to travel to the Seat of the Pantheon to grab Argus on death.

[TheFirstOnes]

Damn, I hope it was not Argus. This is how maw got created? So it’s impossible, because we killed him later. Must be someone before we killed Arthas.

No. We're asking what broke the machine of Death. We're not asking what made the fuckin Maw.

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Kyrians aren't spirit healers.

You do this as part of the Kyrian campaign. You go to Azeroth to find someone dead, and fetch their soul.

And putting aside whether or not you want to consider it the Shadowlands or not, I'd say it isn't since we now have a definite Shadowlands personally, that still doesn't change that if they can travel there, it's pretty clear they'd be able to travel to the Seat of the Pantheon to grab Argus on death.

Regarding the Spirit Healers, you have no idea what you're talking about.

https://sagamer.co.za/2020/05/28/a-d...eater-purpose/

Cash explains: “We have explored little slices of this before, but ultimately the Spirit Healers are kyrian. One of the kyrian roles is called Watchers and we know them as Spirit Healers on Azeroth and their role is to eternally evaluate souls. When you die and you are called to them, they peer into your inner self and evaluate whether you are ready to be dead. If you are, they call one of the other kyrian, called Bearers, to come and get you and bring your soul to the Shadowlands. If you aren’t ready, they return you to life, exactly how you see Spirit Healers work in the game. Players have something different about them: they are never quite ready for the Shadowlands, despite ending up there and that is an interesting thing specifically about some of the races of Azeroth.”

[LordVargK]

We already know how it works. Souls generate Anima through their actions and status while alive. Once they die, they no longer produce any significant quantities. The greater your importance and deeds, the more anima you have.

Yes, that's option 2 of my post. And it doesn't really make sense, since the amount of dying mortals roughly stays the same, while the amount of souls within the shadowlands that rely on anima increases. Which means, that souls within the shadowlands get less and less anima, since the fixed value of income is divided between more and more souls.

[Palisis]

Argus is NOT a likely candidate. He's killed too late to make sense.

1: Ursoc is in Ardenweald, so it worked when we killed him.
2: Helya is in the Maw, so it was broken when we killed her.
3: Machine broke after Ursoc, but before Helya: Only likely candidate left: Xavius

Helya going to the maw doesn't mean she didn't belong there. She's one of the worst, so I don't see why she wouldn't fit there.

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Yes. It was mentioned by an NPC in the Maldraxxus quest "Blade of Blades", where he boasts about slaying Titans with this "PROFOUND WEAPON", and how he slew lots of guys from the Light, from the Void, and even meddlers from the Gardens of Life.

https://www.wowhead.com/quest=57284/...lades#comments

It's funny, cause when you actually find the blade, it's unimpressive asf. Meaning, the guy's a cocky idiot. But the Gardens still likely exist.

Even the "dreadlords" talk about the Adherents of Life, their plane, and the planes heavy connection with Ardenweald in the Enemy Infiltration: Preface book. Seems there is a vulnerability within Ardenweald that could lead into the Gardens and its fall. Also doesn't help that the Heart of the Forest within Ardenweald is kinda...the thing that's keeping the Jailer stuck in the Maw.

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My assumption is that Sargeras' blade and powers were amp'd up by Anima, and Sargeras empowered Argus, who was full of corrupted Anima. Then, once Argus died, the corrupted Sargeras anima from within Argus went back to its source, right to the Arbiter.

Meaning, Fel corrupted dark Anima >>>> Fucks over the Arbiter's body. That breaks the machine of Death, which then leads to the drought, which THEN leads to the Jailer finally making his move. The Jailer apparently has a history with fucking over the Cosmos, especially the Legion and Sargeras.

No cap, they wrote Sargeras as a big dumb idiot.

Anima is life force that exists in the shadowlands... What in canon event mentions anima in the material plane? I don't see how Argus would have used anima.

[Jester Joe]

Regarding the Spirit Healers, you have no idea what you're talking about.

https://sagamer.co.za/2020/05/28/a-d...eater-purpose/

Cash explains: “We have explored little slices of this before, but ultimately the Spirit Healers are kyrian. One of the kyrian roles is called Watchers and we know them as Spirit Healers on Azeroth and their role is to eternally evaluate souls. When you die and you are called to them, they peer into your inner self and evaluate whether you are ready to be dead. If you are, they call one of the other kyrian, called Bearers, to come and get you and bring your soul to the Shadowlands. If you aren’t ready, they return you to life, exactly how you see Spirit Healers work in the game. Players have something different about them: they are never quite ready for the Shadowlands, despite ending up there and that is an interesting thing specifically about some of the races of Azeroth.”

This is really semantics and you realize that, right?

We're talking about Kyrians as in, the Ascended/Bearers as they call them there I guess, who ferry souls across.

What you're talking about is saying that the spirit healers are part of Kyrians covenant. Which is true, yes.
But that's about the same as calling our characters "Kyrian" because they're part of the covenant.

As in, you know fully well what I'm talking about, but again some weird fixation on semantics always needs to become a smug "you don't know what you're talking about" when ultimately what you said literally changed nothing.

I mean, I'm sure this will also continue onto the normal "but it really matters because...", but it doesn't because if you read the discussion, the other poster claimed that the Kyrians don't show up themselves to bring the souls over, it's the Spirit healers.

Which is wrong.

[Gravemind]

Helya going to the maw doesn't mean she didn't belong there. She's one of the worst, so I don't see why she wouldn't fit there.

Where Helya went after we killed her is irrelevant because it was Mueh'zala who got her to join the Maw forces anyways.

[Palisis]

i am still going with arbiter was attacked.

Argus makes zero sense.

It makes total sense if Argus soul was meant for revendreth for redemption, and Deni-boi sent it back.

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Actually it's during the mainstory of ravendreth or maybe just a bit after (at the Skype meeting in oribos) that prince renathal states that it was denathrius that caused the drought.
Pretty much self explanatory to me

I agree. Part of the problem of how storytelling worked this expansion is that we don't get the full story by playing 1 covenant

[Traveler Voltin]

It makes total sense if Argus soul was meant for revendreth for redemption, and Deni-boi sent it back.

titans dont go to the shadowlands when they die.

[huth]

Yes, that's option 2 of my post. And it doesn't really make sense, since the amount of dying mortals roughly stays the same, while the amount of souls within the shadowlands that rely on anima increases. Which means, that souls within the shadowlands get less and less anima, since the fixed value of income is divided between more and more souls.

The number of people dying isn't fixed. Anima isn't being divided between souls, either. Depending on the realm, it is being donated by or harvested from the souls; they're the carriers and supply, not what the Anima is being used on. As long as they aren't completely drained, the soul will be just fine.
It's the realms that are being run with Anima. Those don't grow at anywhere near the rate, and Anima was stated to be ubiquitious before the Drought.

Most realms that don't serve any major function probably don't even need any significant quantities, either.

Besides, while souls don't age and do not naturally "die", they're not invulnerable. Any soul will eventually meet its end by sheer chance.

[Progenitor Aquarius]

No. We're asking what broke the machine of Death. We're not asking what made the fuckin Maw.

I wrote I hope it's not Argus. I wondered if breaking the Arbiter created Maw or was it earlier already. Watch your language. I don't like people quoting my posts and swear.

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The maw has always existed, the event that we talk about is when the arbiter got assaulted and was unable to judge souls anymore. So all souls are funneled to the maw and none to bastion, ardenweald etc, when only the worst ones were supposed to be sent there.

Oh I see. I thought this is also how maw got created. It looks to me like a ruined city. Maybe it was some Broker's Area in the past. I hope in the next patch we will find that out.

[Volardelis]

A lot of the theories underlying Argus have less to do with his coloration (which is naturally more of a blue/black/gold motif) and more to do with his connection with Death as a concept or force - the themes of his abilities dealing with death and souls. This theory is often combated by the notion that Titans do not go to the Shadowlands on death but Argus was an outlier on several different points, so it's not impossible that he did go to the Shadowlands (or was possibly sent there by a third party).

But wasn't Argus' soul used to seal away Sargeras? As shown in the ABT finale cinematic and in the post Aggramar dialogue

Magni Bronzebeard says: Their final act will harness the last o' Argus's power, to imprison Sargeras... once and for all.

https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Aggramar_(tactics)

Besides, as shown with Aggramar, a titan reverts back to their world soul state after being killed. Since Aggramar, along with the other titans regain their proper corporal forms when they return to the Seat of the Pantheon.

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Mythic Argus is canon (as the Mythic fights have been shown to be canon since Archimonde), and he is red in the Mythic version.

He starts off the fight as he does on non mythic difficulties. It is only after Aman'thul tried to wipe him from existence using time magic does Argus come back all red on mythic. Implying that Sargeras had further empowered Argus.

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But the Emerald Dream is not the 'Life' dimension. It is a Titan-made virtual reality designed to interface with the sleeping world-soul of Azeroth. It's Azeroth's dream, made into a pocket reality by Freya/Eonar. The Wild Gods transit back and forth between the Emerald Dream and Azeroth because the Wild Gods became Wild Gods due to exposure to the magic from the Well of Eternity. They are the foremost Gods representing the cosmic force of Life but bounce between the Shadowlands and a Titan-constructed Dimension as part of their cycle of life and death, there is no 'Life dimension' and the Emerald Dream certainly is not it.

The problem with your whole "wilds gods exist because of the WoE" is that Wild Gods have existed on other worlds, even worlds (that we know of) that don't have a massive font of pure Arcane magic like a world with a Titan World Soul. We even interact with a Wild God from another world in Ardenweald, who remained in Ardenweald as her planet was destroyed by the Legion. We also have Anzu, Rukhmar and Seethe from Draenor which can be argued to be Wild Gods. Also only the Wild Gods that took part in Freya's ritual at Mount Hyjal are 'bound' to the Emerald Dream. For example, Ursoc only ended up in Ardenweald because he was killed (again) in the Emerald Dream. When he was killed in the WotA and again in Wrath, he went back to the Dream. Meanwhile Wild Gods like Shadra probably went to Ardenweald when she died in Vanilla and again in Cata. Her death in BFA sent her to the maw instead due to the Arbiter going offline.

"It was on the slopes of Hyjal that Freya bound the spirits of her beloved Wild Gods to the Emerald Dream" - Chronicles vol 1, page 40. Now whether or not ALL of Azeroths wild gods were bound the dream by this ritual or not is up to debate.

While yes, at least on Azeroth most of the Wild Gods did come from the mixture of Arcane and Life energy in areas like Un'goro crater (as stated in Chronicles vol 1), it is clear that isn't the only way for Wild Gods to come to existence (e.g. Ursoc and Ursol are implied to be from Grizzly hills). We also know with examples such as Rezan and Ashamane that Wild Gods do not have to be the first of their kind. They can be born to regular parents, such was the case with Ashamane. Or they can be twins such as Ursoc and Ursol.

Although it is a bit weird that Ashamane would end up in Ardenweald and not the Dream. Given that she had experienced the Dream at one point. Most likely though she did not attend Freya's ritual due to her preferred lifestyle of isolation (unlike other Wild Gods, she did not travel the world with Freya).

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Oh I see. I thought this is also how maw got created. It looks to me like a ruined city. Maybe it was some Broker's Area in the past. I hope in the next patch we will find that out.

iirc, the maw (at least the floating landmass) was created when Zovaal began to bring fragments from other Shadowland realms that drifted towards Torghast. Originally there was only Torghast in the maw. We of course see him continue to do this in the 9.1 trailer.

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No. We're asking what broke the machine of Death. We're not asking what made the fuckin Maw.

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Regarding the Spirit Healers, you have no idea what you're talking about.

https://sagamer.co.za/2020/05/28/a-d...eater-purpose/

Cash explains: “We have explored little slices of this before, but ultimately the Spirit Healers are kyrian. One of the kyrian roles is called Watchers and we know them as Spirit Healers on Azeroth and their role is to eternally evaluate souls. When you die and you are called to them, they peer into your inner self and evaluate whether you are ready to be dead. If you are, they call one of the other kyrian, called Bearers, to come and get you and bring your soul to the Shadowlands. If you aren’t ready, they return you to life, exactly how you see Spirit Healers work in the game. Players have something different about them: they are never quite ready for the Shadowlands, despite ending up there and that is an interesting thing specifically about some of the races of Azeroth.”

Reread his first sentence. It is basically, "All spirit healers are Kyrians, but not all Kyrians are spirit healers".

[Dizzyswiftz]

Argus is NOT a likely candidate. He's killed too late to make sense.

1: Ursoc is in Ardenweald, so it worked when we killed him.
2: Helya is in the Maw, so it was broken when we killed her.
3: Machine broke after Ursoc, but before Helya: Only likely candidate left: Xavius

That's some good #Stience, if I've ever seen it.

[Al Gorefiend]

Its the simple fact we, the community, near unanimously agree the likely candidate is Argus, that Blizzard will not go with it being Argus to maintain the element of surprise.

Had we, the community, collectively believed it was Rezan that caused the cycle to break, would Blizzard have chosen Argus.

[TheFirstOnes]

This is really semantics and you realize that, right?

We're talking about Kyrians as in, the Ascended/Bearers as they call them there I guess, who ferry souls across.

What you're talking about is saying that the spirit healers are part of Kyrians covenant. Which is true, yes.
But that's about the same as calling our characters "Kyrian" because they're part of the covenant.

As in, you know fully well what I'm talking about, but again some weird fixation on semantics always needs to become a smug "you don't know what you're talking about" when ultimately what you said literally changed nothing.

I mean, I'm sure this will also continue onto the normal "but it really matters because...", but it doesn't because if you read the discussion, the other poster claimed that the Kyrians don't show up themselves to bring the souls over, it's the Spirit healers.

Which is wrong.

Don't see what the players have to do with it. Also, the Spirit Healers are Watchers, yes. They're another branch of Kyrian from the Bearers and Ascended. Don't see the issue here. Just means the Kyrian have different types of roles.

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And why are you talking "semantics"?

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Reread his first sentence. It is basically, "All spirit healers are Kyrians, but not all Kyrians are spirit healers".

That doesn't go against what I'm saying. Like I said, that just means not every Kyrian has the same job.

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I wrote I hope it's not Argus. I wondered if breaking the Arbiter created Maw or was it earlier already. Watch your language. I don't like people quoting my posts and swear.

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Oh I see. I thought this is also how maw got created. It looks to me like a ruined city. Maybe it was some Broker's Area in the past. I hope in the next patch we will find that out.

The Jailer's existed since before Reality was even made. I'm pretty sure the Maw also applies too.